Am i the only person who agrees with Havok’s “M Word” sentiment?

[Dboi2001]

Some people feel like Alex Summer’s speech in Uncanny X-Men was backwards and even All New X Men took a shot at it with Kitty Pryde telling the young X Men she wants people to know she is a mutant and that it isn’t derogatory. While I do think the wording of Alex’s speech is a little off I agree with him. He should be forced to be seen only as a mutant. He’s a human being. All mutants are humans at the end of the day and calling them mutants separates them. Even then I don’t think his beliefs are any worse than what Morgan Freeman said a while ago about race. I mean I don’t think it is wrong for a mutant to identify as a mutant but it also defeats Xavier’s dream of mutants integrating with humans. Like even later on in All New X Men I think Scarlet Witch said that they don’t have mutant problems or human problems. Just problems period.

[gurkle]

You have to look a little bit outside the story though. It's true that in-universe, it doesn't really make sense to talk of mutants as a "people" because they have nothing in common except a gene that gives them superpowers (though in real life, of course, there are a lot of groups that are defined on a flimsier basis than that).

But millions of readers identify with the X-Men because they're a metaphor for the idea that

a) you can be the target of prejudice for reasons that make absolutely no sense (like getting picked on for having super powers even as people with non-mutant powers are treated fine), and
b) the thing that makes you the target of prejudice isn't a weakness, something to be ashamed of, but something that makes you special.

So when Havok made the speech about mutants not being a separate people, he's right, but the writer and editor should have known that people would react that way, because he's not just saying that about mutants, he's saying that about the real people who identify with mutants. That was a point that Bendis made by having Kitty reply to Alex's speech: being Jewish doesn't actually make you different from any other person in any way, but that doesn't mean people wouldn't get mad at a Jewish celebrity saying not to call him Jewish. And when people read X-Men comics they're reading mutants as allegories for whatever makes them different in real life.

[Dboi2001]

You have to look a little bit outside the story though. It's true that in-universe, it doesn't really make sense to talk of mutants as a "people" because they have nothing in common except a gene that gives them superpowers (though in real life, of course, there are a lot of groups that are defined on a flimsier basis than that).

But millions of readers identify with the X-Men because they're a metaphor for the idea that

a) you can be the target of prejudice for reasons that make absolutely no sense (like getting picked on for having super powers even as people with non-mutant powers are treated fine), and
b) the thing that makes you the target of prejudice isn't a weakness, something to be ashamed of, but something that makes you special.

So when Havok made the speech about mutants not being a separate people, he's right, but the writer and editor should have known that people would react that way, because he's not just saying that about mutants, he's saying that about the real people who identify with mutants. That was a point that Bendis made by having Kitty reply to Alex's speech: being Jewish doesn't actually make you different from any other person in any way, but that doesn't mean people wouldn't get mad at a Jewish celebrity saying not to call him Jewish. And when people read X-Men comics they're reading mutants as allegories for whatever makes them different in real life.

Except Jewish is a religion. You can choose to be jewish or not. Kitty could easily decide to be Christian or atheist or buddhist or whatever (And she cant even argue she’s ethnically jewish because she is specifically an Ashkenazi jewish). Regardless I know jewish people who wouldn’t appreciate their jewish heritage being brought up for no reason (example they mentioned they got a gift during hanukkah and a person goes “wait you’re a jew?”). Like it’s fine to let people know about your heritage or beliefs or whatever in certain contexts but to just go around saying “hello friend we are mutants. love us” well then you’re straight up mormons. Like is the X Men purpose to show they’re just humans or to show they’re above humans?

And yeah there are plenty of people of minorities who don’t want to be remembered or defined by their skin color or sexuality. So while Kitty has a point Alex has just as fair a point. He just wants to be a superhero and help as many people as he can, not just limiting himself to a certain group of people. Like nobody thinks of Captain America as solely a human or Thor as solely as Asgardian why should the X-Men be different? Because it’s their branding? You can be proud of your heritage or beliefs or whatever but not let it define you

[BushidoBlade2]

And yeah there are plenty of people of minorities who don’t want to be remembered or defined by their skin color or sexuality.

Just because someone doesn't want to be defined by their skin color or sexuality, doesn't mean they won't be. That's just the way it is.

[Dboi2001]

Just because someone doesn't want to be defined by their skin color or sexuality, doesn't mean they won't be. That's just the way it is.

and is that a good thing?

Look the fact is labels are innately exclusive and by having mutants insist they are mutants it does come off as exclusion. The issue is that many people believe that killing mutants is okay because they are not humans and so in a way that affirms the sentiment

[H-E-D]

Just because someone doesn't want to be defined by their skin color or sexuality, doesn't mean they won't be. That's just the way it is.

And just because they don’t want to be defined by their skin color doesn’t mean that they don’t want people to call them Black.

[Snoop Dogg]

every time i look at the actual page i am still shocked at how bad it is

[BroHomo]

Prob not

You have to look a little bit outside the story though. It's true that in-universe, it doesn't really make sense to talk of mutants as a "people" because they have nothing in common except a gene that gives them superpowers (though in real life, of course, there are a lot of groups that are defined on a flimsier basis than that).

But millions of readers identify with the X-Men because they're a metaphor for the idea that

a) you can be the target of prejudice for reasons that make absolutely no sense (like getting picked on for having super powers even as people with non-mutant powers are treated fine), and
b) the thing that makes you the target of prejudice isn't a weakness, something to be ashamed of, but something that makes you special.

So when Havok made the speech about mutants not being a separate people, he's right, but the writer and editor should have known that people would react that way, because he's not just saying that about mutants, he's saying that about the real people who identify with mutants. That was a point that Bendis made by having Kitty reply to Alex's speech: being Jewish doesn't actually make you different from any other person in any way, but that doesn't mean people wouldn't get mad at a Jewish celebrity saying not to call him Jewish. And when people read X-Men comics they're reading mutants as allegories for whatever makes them different in real life.

SOoooo Much this response tho. ONe of the best retorts I've read on the matter lol

[cranger]

There might be some optic issues with Alex here, but the books themselves have often portrayed lots of mutants having many different opinions on just what being a mutant means and having very different outlooks on life in general, that there isn't really a need to agree or disagree with him. It just is what it is.

My impression is people had a problem with the appearance that the book coming out after the X-Men bent the knee to the Avengers which was supposed to be the humans and mutants working together in "unity" came off as more trying to convert everything to the Avengers point of view.

[Ferro]

the thing is havok is a very very priveledged member of a community he has never really represented before, a community that's very diverse on it's range of experiences, many mutants HAVE come together in communities like the morlocks or in now dead communities like m town and genosha, both destroyed by two seperate genocides.

the concept of a mutant community wasnt nonexistant it was just constantly destroyed, and havok pretty much wants to speak for all mutants and claim himself as alex, because truly that's the only thing that seperates him from the type of priveledge captain america and the avengers enjoy is his pesky mutant status.


The book tries to sell the idea mutants aren't a sub-culture when thats blantantly untrue and has the worst possible mutant to speak about it.

So he's pretty much claiming mutants have no sense of unity, wich is completly wrong, AND bends over backwards to make the woman responsible for the destruction whatever mutant culture was left after genosha, to be the righteous, moral and "logical" to a point of being condescending over the petty, arrogant and rash mutants that have the nerve to still hate her for the atrocities she commited.

that's why many x-men fans were upset, because it felt like a toxic take from an outsider that clearly had no passion for it's themes dragging it trough the mud and using a book that was supposed to be about unity to spout criticism to one side and one side only while the avengers remain logical, optimistic, heroic and wise, but now have to deal with the pesky mutants.

[gurkle]

It didn't help that Remender was so rattled by the online criticism that he used Wanda, of all characters, as his mouthpiece to make a speech about how mutants aren't a race (something she would be an idiot to say to other mutants, post-HoM, even if she thought it), and then he couldn't let it go so he had Wasp do an internal monologue a few months later about how poor Alex had been criticized and taken out of context just because he tried to speak out for unity. He seemed to be getting defensive and worse, acting like no reasonable person could disagree with that speech.

The editor should have just made him move on or try to do some damage control (e.g. having a character argue with what Alex said instead of letting Bendis do it over in X-Men), but unfortunately Tom Brevoort's belief that "angry fans buy more comics" seems to have led him astray here.

[H-E-D]

Havok's speech is problematic when set in the context of mutants as metaphor for BIPOC or Queer people. Uncanny Avengers was definitely leveraging that metaphor.

[Dboi2001]

Havok's speech is problematic when set in the context of mutants as metaphor for BIPOC or Queer people. Uncanny Avengers was definitely leveraging that metaphor.

The thing is LGBT or colored people will and are always going to be viewed as human beings and as such are protected by most first world countries in terms of rights. Mutants on the other hand are argued to be non humans and as such aren’t protected so by saying they’re mutants they’re only enforcing the belief that mutants are not humans. Plus mutant is rarely ever used as a positive even in the marvel universe.

[Gigantor]

the thing is havok is a very very priveledged member of a community he has never really represented before, a community that's very diverse on it's range of experiences, many mutants HAVE come together in communities like the morlocks or in now dead communities like m town and genosha, both destroyed by two seperate genocides.

the concept of a mutant community wasnt nonexistant it was just constantly destroyed, and havok pretty much wants to speak for all mutants and claim himself as alex, because truly that's the only thing that seperates him from the type of priveledge captain america and the avengers enjoy is his pesky mutant status.


The book tries to sell the idea mutants aren't a sub-culture when thats blantantly untrue and has the worst possible mutant to speak about it.

So he's pretty much claiming mutants have no sense of unity, wich is completly wrong, AND bends over backwards to make the woman responsible for the destruction whatever mutant culture was left after genosha, to be the righteous, moral and "logical" to a point of being condescending over the petty, arrogant and rash mutants that have the nerve to still hate her for the atrocities she commited.

that's why many x-men fans were upset, because it felt like a toxic take from an outsider that clearly had no passion for it's themes dragging it trough the mud and using a book that was supposed to be about unity to spout criticism to one side and one side only while the avengers remain logical, optimistic, heroic and wise, but now have to deal with the pesky mutants.

Can we just be real for second and put aside the fantasy? A person with dwarfism living in India does not have the same issues as a person living with dwarfism in England. They have nothing in common but being short. And yeah people with dwarfism do talk about the struggle of being short together online and in social media but they don’t move into an island nation and become the land of dwarfs. I chose this because I hate the racial analogy of mutants. They are not a race they are genetic predisposition. And the fact that we can’t even talk about disability or ableism in comics is sad because we stuck with a race analogy so dated Deadpool 2 made fun of it. The X-men are a broken franchise because even now with their biggest changes in years it’s still rehashing the same story beats from 20 years ago

[Ferro]

Can we just be real for second and put aside the fantasy? A person with dwarfism living in India does not have the same issues as a person living with dwarfism in England. They have nothing in common but being short. And yeah people with dwarfism do talk about the struggle of being short together online and in social media but they don’t move into an island nation and become the land of dwarfs. I chose this because I hate the racial analogy of mutants. They are not a race they are genetic predisposition. And the fact that we can’t even talk about disability or ableism in comics is sad because we stuck with a race analogy so dated Deadpool 2 made fun of it. The X-men are a broken franchise because even now with their biggest changes in years it’s still rehashing the same story beats from 20 years ago

Yeah you misunderstand the point and XoS is the best event by marvel in years and its only 3 issues in, the x-franchise is everything but broken my dude.

and Some people don't want to remove what makes them them just to make the majority comfortable, alex was a mutant who looks like a skinny cap so him droping it isn't much to him but other mutants cant drop it becuase of their apearence or simply don't want to, but like kitty who is a jewish woman and a mutant would wear it with pride since SHE IS all those things, and if you have a problem with it, she wants to know.
But i guess people need to endure bigotry to teach the poor misunderstood bigots to be better, right zelena?