Am i the only person who agrees with Havok’s “M Word” sentiment?

[ed2962]

I think it was more of an extent that mutants and humans aren’t so different and shouldn’t be treated differently. And if he was only brought on to be a token then that’d be kinda messed up. Like imagine Cap telling Luke Cage they want him on the Avengers because he’s Black. Alex isn’t saying he isn’t a mutant but that he doesn’t want to be defined by a label which many people do hold to that

But in story those labels were the whole point of the "Unity Team" in the first place. If Alex didn't want people bringing up his status as a mutant he should have joined the Defenders or one of the main Avengers teams. To say nothing of the fact that he didn't mind being a member of a govt sanctioned mutant ( as far as I know, I didn't read much of Peter David's X-Factor).

[Blind Wedjat]

1. People like that exist in real life. Some people prefer certain labels (i.e. African-American) over other labels (i.e. Black). Others disagree. Others don't care one way or another. Everyone is different.

2. Whether or not someone wants to be called a mutant is a fair question to ask in the context of the Marvel Universe where 'mutant' is often used as a slur. 'Black' is almost never used as a slur. In that sense, the word 'mutant' has a bit more in common with the N Word than the word 'black' does. If someone in the MU doesn't want to be called that because it makes them uncomfortable, it isn't entirely unreasonable.

The problem is that Alex didn't offer an alternative to being called a mutant that still acknowledged that was part of his identity.

Think about how black people in America used to be called Negroes, then colored, then using identifiers like African-American or black. The terms kept getting revised and changed over time and the idea was to reject the labels forced upon them by their oppressors and create their own.

And even if the word mutant is used as a slur, mutans in the Marvel universe refer to themselves as mutants too, the same way black people call each other black, gay people call each other gay, etc.

It's so easy for Alex to say he doesn't want to be called a mutant and just by his name because he doesn't look like a mutant and looks like everything America and the world deems acceptable and normal. He's a good looking, able-bodied, straight, white man with blond hair and blue eyes. He faces no oppression as long as he controls his powers and nobody knows he possesses the X-gene. And here he is, with that privilege, asking mutants to erase a part of their identity because it makes him uncomfortable. It's not an inclusive message. It's asking for assimilation and erasure.

And that's my problem: if the X-Men were actually a smart allegory on racism and other forms of oppression it so badly wants to be, these are the kind of issues it would have brought up. Instead it's still relying on the same warped perceptions of Civil Rights era politics of assimilation versus complete separation or superiority.

[Blind Wedjat]

I mean you don’t have to be a in a certain group to write about themes

No, you don't. But no matter how it sounds or if you don't like it, a person belonging to a certain group is always more likely to understand the nuanced issues of said group than an outsider.

An outsider can't bring in a personal experience that someone within the group can, which other people from said group can relate to.

I might be well researched on gender politics and feminism, but that doesn't mean I know what it means to actually be a woman.

[ed2962]

No you misunderstood the term “fantastic racism” is the trope to use a fictional race instead of actual minorities so the story will be more accessible to white audiences. That’s the X-men. It’s why you have wolverine talking about racial strife and prejudice even though he is a white guy from Canada. It’s considered by most people to be incredibly outdated as a trope and it’s the X-men franchise desperate need to cling to it that holds it all back. No matter progressive dox acts or sounds it is intrinsically racist because it takes real world issues about black and lgtq people and puts them on white cis people. The writers even change character to become minorities to keep it up rather than making new or unique characters out of fear of alienating the majority white audience. It’s why kitty is suddenly bi instead of us getting a new unique character with a lgtbq perspective.

Stories dealing with injustice should feature actual victims of injustice. Not pretty white people

To be fair, Canada has a long history of racial and ethnic prejudice.

Changing an old character's sexuality or race is really more about creator vs company ownership than "not offending white audience".

[Dboi2001]

Also, Remender's handling of the situation made it worse and exposed his ignorance:

- Having Alex Summers, a straight, white man with blond hair, blue eyes, and suburban upbringing, tell people to not call him the "M word" is ignorant. Doubling down on that and saying it wasn't a reference to the N-word made it worse.

- Telling people who were (rightfully) offended by that moment to "drown in hobo piss" was stupid and possibly bigoted. Doubling down on that and saying the X-Men aren't an allegory for any real world oppressed group (they are, although an outdated, poorly conceived and executed one) was ignorant and foolish. Hell, he demonstrated he doesn't know what allegory means.

Remender needed to understand that oppression isn't something that victims of said oppression choose to affect them. That seemed to be the rationale behind that moment, and I can see how a straight white man with possible conservative upbringing would come to that conclusion but that is not how it works.

Yeah and the x men are typically allegories for racism despite being mostly white what’s your point. You also act like white people never have any personal problems

Also while I agree it was in poor taste to insult people not every insult is “bigoted”.

[Dboi2001]

No, you don't. But no matter how it sounds or if you don't like it, a person belonging to a certain group is always more likely to understand the nuanced issues of said group than an outsider.

An outsider can't bring in a personal experience that someone within the group can, which other people from said group can relate to.

I might be well researched on gender politics and feminism, but that doesn't mean I know what it means to actually be a woman.

So was it wrong to let Christopher Priest write Deathstroke because Slade is white? And believe it or not not every minority person has face prejudice in their lives. Many certainly have but some people have not. You’re literally pigeonholing people to specific types of stories and characters.

The way I see it is in the marvel universe mutant is often used as a negative connotation. Alex even mentioned mutant is a divisive term and ends it with simply wanting to be called Alex. That absolutely holds true to many minorities who don’t want to be treated differently because of their race or sexual orientation. Like if Havok simply told the world he was an alien or his suit gives him powers or got them from a test experiment people wouldn’t treat him differently versus being a mutant. There’s nothing wrong with either Alex or Kitty’s stances

[Blind Wedjat]

Yeah and the x men are typically allegories for racism despite being mostly white what’s your point. You also act like white people never have any personal problems

Also while I agree it was in poor taste to insult people not every insult is “bigoted”.

White people having personal problems is not the same thing as dealing with racism or living in a country where they are not afforded equal opportunities because of the colour of their skin. What on earth would make you think those are even the same?

I said the insult is possibly bigoted because if the people offended by Remender's writing are minorities, telling them to drown in hobo piss because they dared to speak up against him is at least entitled and in disregard of those people's feelings.

[Dboi2001]

But in story those labels were the whole point of the "Unity Team" in the first place. If Alex didn't want people bringing up his status as a mutant he should have joined the Defenders or one of the main Avengers teams. To say nothing of the fact that he didn't mind being a member of a govt sanctioned mutant ( as far as I know, I didn't read much of Peter David's X-Factor).

He isn’t denying the fact he is a mutant he just doesn’t want it to define him like if the media made a deal about Luke Cage being apart of the Avengers simply because he’s Black . Also I don’t think he has an issue with mutant as a classification but as an identity status

[Dboi2001]

White people having personal problems is not the same thing as dealing with racism or living in a country where they are not afforded equal opportunities because of the colour of their skin. What on earth would make you think those are even the same?

I said the insult is possibly bigoted because if the people offended by Remender's writing are minorities, telling them to drown in hobo piss because they dared to speak up against him is at least entitled and in disregard of those people's feelings.

So people living before the 1960s? And again you don’t know everyone’s life story plenty of countries like Zimbabwe and a South Africa discriminate against white people. Again are you insinuating that literally every single minority has had first hand experiences with racism? So no you can write stories about racism even if you have not experienced racism first hand

We also know Alex has been harassed for being a mutant. You’re argument is he can’t complain about discrimination because he’s white is weird to say the least. We see plenty of mutants who look like regular white people discriminated against. You seem to be applying real world logic to this fantasy world

So if he said that to white people it’d be okay?

[Username taken]

The problem is that Alex didn't offer an alternative to being called a mutant that still acknowledged that was part of his identity.

Think about how black people in America used to be called Negroes, then colored, then using identifiers like African-American or black. The terms kept getting revised and changed over time and the idea was to reject the labels forced upon them by their oppressors and create their own.

And even if the word mutant is used as a slur, mutans in the Marvel universe refer to themselves as mutants too, the same way black people call each other black, gay people call each other gay, etc.

It's so easy for Alex to say he doesn't want to be called a mutant and just by his name because he doesn't look like a mutant and looks like everything America and the world deems acceptable and normal. He's a good looking, able-bodied, straight, white man with blond hair and blue eyes. He faces no oppression as long as he controls his powers and nobody knows he possesses the X-gene. And here he is, with that privilege, asking mutants to erase a part of their identity because it makes him uncomfortable. It's not an inclusive message. It's asking for assimilation and erasure.

And that's my problem: if the X-Men were actually a smart allegory on racism and other forms of oppression it so badly wants to be, these are the kind of issues it would have brought up. Instead it's still relying on the same warped perceptions of Civil Rights era politics of assimilation versus complete separation or superiority.

Quoted for truth.

[Blind Wedjat]

So was it wrong to let Christopher Priest write Deathstroke because Slade is white? And believe it or not not every minority person has face prejudice in their lives. Many certainly have but some people have not. You’re literally pigeonholing people to specific types of stories and characters.

The way I see it is in the marvel universe mutant is often used as a negative connotation. Alex even mentioned mutant is a divisive term and ends it with simply wanting to be called Alex. That absolutely holds true to many minorities who don’t want to be treated differently because of their race or sexual orientation. Like if Havok simply told the world he was an alien or his suit gives him powers or got them from a test experiment people wouldn’t treat him differently versus being a mutant. There’s nothing wrong with either Alex or Kitty’s stances

First of all, what does Christopher Priest have to do with anything? Second, Deathstroke is a character not defined by his race or ethnicity. Anybody can write him. This is a poor example.

I never said minorities all deal with oppression. However, if you're going to be writing stories about the oppression of minorities or stories that are allegorical to that, you better be a non-minority that has a complete understanding of the nuances of the situation in question, or be a minority that does. I'm not pigeonholing anyone.

Oh, the horror of asking writers to be better informed on the things they're writing! It's almost like that would make them better writers, since you must love the "Just hire the right person for the job" argument!

Minorities wanting to not be treated differently because of their race or sexual orientation is not the same thing as being forced to disregard your identity completely to fit in. A Muslim shouldn't have to renounce or deny being a Muslim to be treated with respect and like a human being. A member of the LGBTQ community shouldn't have to be ashamed or deny their sexuality to fit in. That's what being inclusive is. Assimilation is denying the difference between people to come together. That's a problematic message for an X-Men title to have.

[Blind Wedjat]

So people living before the 1960s? And again you don’t know everyone’s life story plenty of countries like Zimbabwe and a South Africa discriminate against white people. Again are you insinuating that literally every single minority has had first hand experiences with racism? So no you can write stories about racism even if you have not experienced racism first hand

We also know Alex has been harassed for being a mutant. You’re argument is he can’t complain about discrimination because he’s white is weird to say the least. We see plenty of mutants who look like regular white people discriminated against. You seem to be applying real world logic to this fantasy world

So if he said that to white people it’d be okay?

I'm not sure what the 1960s have to do with anything you're saying.

What do Zimbabwe and South Africa have to do with this? X-Men stories like many Marvel stories are largely American stories. That's the context we are using here. Newsflash: racism is not the same in every country of the world. Racism in America has a different context than in Britain, Brazil, India, South Africa or Zimbabwe.

(Also, really? You want to use South Africa as an example of how white people are so oppressed?).

Also, I'm saying two things. First, since Alex is a white man and only wants to be seen as a human being, Remender should have been aware and acknowledged the privileges that Alex possess which allows him to easily denounce his identity. Alex as a white man is the norm. He is not othered. People who are othered by society cannot easily deny their identity because society will not allow them to. That's my point, and that is why Alex is the wrong mouthpiece for that kind of message.

Second, the message is wrong. Alex shouldn't have to deny who and what he is to be treated with human decency. That is a message of self hate and erasure, and that kind of message shouldn't be coming from a work that is allegory for the oppression of minorities. If Remender was better versed in the discourse he would have understood that. But he was not, and that's how he ended up writing something so ignorant and doubled down on it. Minorities shouldn't deny who they are to fit in and be accepted by society. Society should accept who they are and change to be included. Alex was effectively telling all mutants that it is their sole responsibility to make themselves acceptable to humanity by denying that they are mutants, when it is in fact humanity that should change their views on mutants and accept them for who and what they are.

Replace "mutants" with "black/gay/Muslims/trans" people and see how that sounds in your head

[Dboi2001]

First of all, what does Christopher Priest have to do with anything? Second, Deathstroke is a character not defined by his race or ethnicity. Anybody can write him. This is a poor example.

I never said minorities all deal with oppression. However, if you're going to be writing stories about the oppression of minorities or stories that are allegorical to that, you better be a non-minority that has a complete understanding of the nuances of the situation in question, or be a minority that does. I'm not pigeonholing anyone.

Oh, the horror of asking writers to be better informed on the things they're writing! It's almost like that would make them better writers, since you must love the "Just hire the right person for the job" argument!

Minorities wanting to not be treated differently because of their race or sexual orientation is not the same thing as being forced to disregard your identity completely to fit in. A Muslim shouldn't have to renounce or deny being a Muslim to be treated with respect and like a human being. A member of the LGBTQ community shouldn't have to be ashamed or deny their sexuality to fit in. That's what being inclusive is. Assimilation is denying the difference between people to come together. That's a problematic message for an X-Men title to have.

You certainly are making it sound like white can’t write stories about discrimination despite the most influential writers being mostly white

Alex didn’t say he wasn’t a mutant just not to only call him that. Alex and the other mutant avengers were known as “the mutant ones” and he just doesn’t want to be viewed solely by that. Again do yo think Luke Cage would appreciate being called “the black avenger” or Kamala “the Muslim avenger”? And again in X-men race doesn’t matter we see mostly normal looking white mutants get harassed just as much as black mutants or even the strange looking mutants. Sometimes it’s not even people hating them being mutants but misunderstanding them like how people hated Nightcrawler because they thought he was a devil. Some people don’t want to be known by their label. Even then this all ignores the bigger issue with mutants and that’s the fact many people believe they’re not human hence using the term mutant. What that would be like is if racists claims black people are not human beings and a black person goes “yeah you’re right we aren’t.” That is pretty harmful especially when some villains like magento makes it an “us vs them” ideology. Alex is simply saying there is no us vs them there is just us. And yes mutant is often a divisive term and isn’t a compliment

[Dboi2001]

Also, I'm saying two things. First, since Alex is a white man and only wants to be seen as a human being, Remender should have been aware and acknowledged the privileges that Alex possess which allows him to easily denounce his identity. Alex as a white man is the norm. He is not othered. People who are othered by society cannot easily deny their identity because society will not allow them to. That's my point, and that is why Alex is the wrong mouthpiece for that kind of message.

So nightcrawler or beast would be fine with me saying “hey mutant what’s up?” Again race doesn’t play a part in x men at least not very much. People discriminated against the original X-men despite being white kids. Ironically enough the only x man who wasn’t discriminated was Storm because her people thought she was a goddess. Alex also isn’t pretending to be a normal person. He isn’t hiding his powers and just pretending to be a regular guy he still obviously uses his powers making people aware he is a mutant. He just doesn’t want to be defined by it

[BroHomo]

1. People like that exist in real life. Some people prefer certain labels (i.e. African-American) over other labels (i.e. Black). Others disagree. Others don't care one way or another. Everyone is different.

2. Whether or not someone wants to be called a mutant is a fair question to ask in the context of the Marvel Universe where 'mutant' is often used as a slur. 'Black' is almost never used as a slur. In that sense, the word 'mutant' has a bit more in common with the N Word than the word 'black' does. If someone in the MU doesn't want to be called that because it makes them uncomfortable, they're not being entirely unreasonable.

Eeeehhhh I think "mutie" would be the stand in for the N word. and its not like hes telling someone not to call him a certain name he was addressing the world at large that doesn't wanna be referred to as a mutant

No you misunderstood the term “fantastic racism” is the trope to use a fictional race instead of actual minorities so the story will be more accessible to white audiences. That’s the X-men. It’s why you have wolverine talking about racial strife and prejudice even though he is a white guy from Canada. It’s considered by most people to be incredibly outdated as a trope and it’s the X-men franchise desperate need to cling to it that holds it all back. No matter progressive dox acts or sounds it is intrinsically racist because it takes real world issues about black and lgtq people and puts them on white cis people. The writers even change character to become minorities to keep it up rather than making new or unique characters out of fear of alienating the majority white audience. It’s why kitty is suddenly bi instead of us getting a new unique character with a lgtbq perspective.

I mean i totoally agree with most of this....Buuuuut they don't "make minorities" by making a char gay....that char had always been gay Just not revealed yet. Buuut in the 616 universe mutants are a minority should there be no allegorical/metaphorical stories? ANd Say what you will but Generations of minority X-Fans have read, understood, and connected with the Xmen To say the metaphor doesnt work is a crock Not sure why people so damn adamant about denying future generations a chance to identify and find Camaraderie with these stories

I mean you don’t have to be a in a certain group to write about themes

Nah but it helps