Am i the only person who agrees with Havok’s “M Word” sentiment?

[Gigantor]

[QUOTE=BroHomo;5158426]In what way?

Lawd...[/QUOTE

She is like black face she is a gentile painted Jewish but it has no meaning it is insulting and racist. Nothing about her comes from her faith except that she says it sometimes to say we are included. I find her very upsetting as a character personally and will not support her books

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Martin luther king had many many many other statements that wouldn't agree with havok or this team's statement, only because people focus on " i have a dream" doesnt erase everything else that he said and what he stood for, like serious reformation and deep cut changes to the systems that are instrumental in the opression of black people in the united states, and many other speeches that aren't so Idealisitc or easy to put into shirts or facebook posts .


Xavier's "dream" is a neo-liberal nonsense that hinges on xavier's picked soldiers being model minorities and never achieving anything that helps other mutants that are far less priveledged or protected.

To my knowledge, MLK has never encouraged essentialist thinking about black people's identities the way neoliberals and what are called the 'woke' left do. He grew up reading Marx and always based his understanding of oppression on people's materialist needs. The critiques towards Havok's speech are mainly rooted in critical race theory, which only came after MLK's death and is likely something he wouldn't have agreed with based on everything he said throughout his life.

[Blind Wedjat]

Also, Remender's handling of the situation made it worse and exposed his ignorance:

- Having Alex Summers, a straight, white man with blond hair, blue eyes, and suburban upbringing, tell people to not call him the "M word" is ignorant. Doubling down on that and saying it wasn't a reference to the N-word made it worse.

- Telling people who were (rightfully) offended by that moment to "drown in hobo piss" was stupid and possibly bigoted. Doubling down on that and saying the X-Men aren't an allegory for any real world oppressed group (they are, although an outdated, poorly conceived and executed one) was ignorant and foolish. Hell, he demonstrated he doesn't know what allegory means.

Remender needed to understand that oppression isn't something that victims of said oppression choose to affect them. That seemed to be the rationale behind that moment, and I can see how a straight white man with possible conservative upbringing would come to that conclusion but that is not how it works.

[BroHomo]

To my knowledge, MLK has never encouraged essentialist thinking about black people's identities the way neoliberals and what are called the 'woke' left do. He grew up reading Marx and always based his understanding of oppression on people's materialist needs. The critiques towards Havok's speech however are mainly rooted in critical race theory, which only came after MLK's death and is likely something he wouldn't have agreed with based on everything he said throughout his life.

Hmm I doubt he'd have a speech where he asks not to be called black tho

[Gigantor]

Also, Remender's handling of the situation made it worse and exposed his ignorance:

- Having Alex Summers, a straight, white man with blond hair, blue eyes, and suburban upbringing, tell people to not call him the "M word" is ignorant. Doubling down on that and saying it wasn't a reference to the N-word made it worse.

- Telling people who were (rightfully) offended by that moment to "drown in hobo piss" was stupid and possibly bigoted. Doubling down on that and saying the X-Men aren't an allegory for any real world oppressed group (they are, although an outdated, poorly conceived and executed one) was ignorant and foolish. Hell, he demonstrated he doesn't know what allegory means.

Remender needed to understand that oppression isn't something that victims of said oppression choose to affect them. That seemed to be the rationale behind that moment, and I can see how a straight white man with possible conservative upbringing would come to that conclusion but that is not how it works.

He was also in a pissing match with Bendis over the X-men and apparently their in fighting is one of the reasons both runs went short

[Blind Wedjat]

Your post was vague lol

I'm questioning why it continues to surprise people that X-Men comics tend to have some questionable ideas on racism and oppression when the majority of X-Men characters (aside from being mutants) do not belong to an oppressed group, and most X-Men writers also don't belong to an oppressed group, which would explain why they sometimes have these bad takes in the first place.

[BroHomo]

I'm questioning why it continues to surprise people that X-Men comics tend to have some questionable ideas on racism and oppression when the majority of X-Men characters (aside from being mutants) do not belong to an oppressed group, and most X-Men writers also don't belong to an oppressed group, which would explain why they sometimes have these bad takes in the first place.

It's sadly hilariously ironic

[Ferro]

I'm questioning why it continues to surprise people that X-Men comics tend to have some questionable ideas on racism and oppression when the majority of X-Men characters (aside from being mutants) do not belong to an oppressed group, and most X-Men writers also don't belong to an oppressed group, which would explain why they sometimes have these bad takes in the first place.

no I agree that the metaphor can be very wide since it can communicate to a lot of experiences, but it's very very shallow, of course diverse writers like Marjorie Liu in her astonishing x-men run can add a bit of depth, and vita ayala in x-prisoners had something to say too, It still has some value as many fans that belong to opressed groups have found a conection and joy to this alegory, but it 100 % needs diverse writers to make it more complexed and nuanced to the current day.

But honestly I think what hickman is doing right now: aproaching mutants more in a transhumanism, global politics and heavy sci fi-fantasy fictional species, is what most writers that don't have the insight should do.

Remember shouldn't have been focused on any social issues and simply focused on the inner dynamics of avengers and x-men now trying to work together in a balanced fashion and just more consistency to some of its plots.

[Ferro]

this run was just very spitefull and in bad faith towards one side of the "unity" it preached, honestly uncanny avengers only exists at vol 3

[Gigantor]

I'm questioning why it continues to surprise people that X-Men comics tend to have some questionable ideas on racism and oppression when the majority of X-Men characters (aside from being mutants) do not belong to an oppressed group, and most X-Men writers also don't belong to an oppressed group, which would explain why they sometimes have these bad takes in the first place.

I’m not sure better representation in the writing group will fix it. I just don’t think the X-men are a good fit for this type of story. Not anymore definitely. We don’t need fantastic racism, we can just talk about racism now! Look how aggressive they have had to make the X-men to fit into the old fantasy racism trope again. It’s forced at this point

[BroHomo]

I’m not sure better representation in the writing group will fix it. I just don’t think the X-men are a good fit for this type of story. Not anymore definitely. We don’t need fantastic racism, we can just talk about racism now! Look how aggressive they have had to make the X-men to fit into the old fantasy racism trope again. It’s forced at this point

Who better to expand the social/story narrative of minority chars than someone who has shared a similar world experience?
what fantasy racism trope is that?

[Ra-El]

I’m not sure better representation in the writing group will fix it. I just don’t think the X-men are a good fit for this type of story. Not anymore definitely. We don’t need fantastic racism, we can just talk about racism now! Look how aggressive they have had to make the X-men to fit into the old fantasy racism trope again. It’s forced at this point

This. If any writer from the x-office want to talk about racism they could use Bishop, Storm, Sunfire, Sunspot, Dust, etc. If they want to talk about homophobia they can use Iceman, Northstar, Prodigy, etc.

Look, Cyclops is my favorite X-Man, but don't use him to talk about racism or LGBTQ+ issues, it just don't fit.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Hmm I doubt he'd have a speech where he asks not to be called black tho

1. People like that exist in real life. Some people prefer certain labels (i.e. African-American) over other labels (i.e. Black). Others disagree. Others don't care one way or another. Everyone is different.

2. Whether or not someone wants to be called a mutant is a fair question to ask in the context of the Marvel Universe where 'mutant' is often used as a slur. 'Black' is almost never used as a slur. In that sense, the word 'mutant' has a bit more in common with the N Word than the word 'black' does. If someone in the MU doesn't want to be called that because it makes them uncomfortable, they're not being entirely unreasonable.

[Gigantor]

Who better to expand the social/story narrative of minority chars than someone who has shared a similar world experience?
what fantasy racism trope is that?

No you misunderstood the term “fantastic racism” is the trope to use a fictional race instead of actual minorities so the story will be more accessible to white audiences. That’s the X-men. It’s why you have wolverine talking about racial strife and prejudice even though he is a white guy from Canada. It’s considered by most people to be incredibly outdated as a trope and it’s the X-men franchise desperate need to cling to it that holds it all back. No matter progressive dox acts or sounds it is intrinsically racist because it takes real world issues about black and lgtq people and puts them on white cis people. The writers even change character to become minorities to keep it up rather than making new or unique characters out of fear of alienating the majority white audience. It’s why kitty is suddenly bi instead of us getting a new unique character with a lgtbq perspective.

Stories dealing with injustice should feature actual victims of injustice. Not pretty white people

[Dboi2001]

X-Men characters: largely made up of characters that aren't BIPOC or LGBTQ+

X-Men writers: largely made up of writers that aren't BIPOC or LGBTQ+

Marvel fans when the X-books say something that isn't particularly intelligent about oppression:

I mean you don’t have to be a in a certain group to write about themes