Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 64
  1. #31
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    260

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    Does Krakoa actually need money to function though? You can’t really buy property and the island is self-sufficient so they don’t need to buy food.
    Well, in fact, what you're saying is does a country need to follow market economics. You're point is very interesting, and goes directly to the heart of capitalism in my view. Can a country actually cut itself off from the world and go it's own way? It's got to be possible as long as the country produces everything the citizens need. Problems arise when people want rather than need, and if what they want is not produced at home. Then they need money, or something else to trade to obtain those items.

    So from the point of view of functioning in a very basic way, I would say no, they need no money. But to function in a higher way then yes they do in current world circumstances.

    Fascinating point. Thanks for bringing it up.

  2. #32
    Spectacular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Posts
    147

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    Does Krakoa actually need money to function though? You can’t really buy property and the island is self-sufficient so they don’t need to buy food.
    If we are to assume there are as many mutants living ok krakoa as the data pages say and we assume food and shelter was built by krakoa himself that still leaves service labor. Cooking, cleaning, maintenance. Does krakoa fix your toilet? (Side note does Krakoa let you have a toilet?) if not someone has to do it. Even if the economy is life energy in exchange for Krakoa giving you everything. Should everyone pay the same amount of energy even if they don’t demand as much? There is an economy at play here

  3. #33
    Spectacular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Posts
    147

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLimboBabies View Post
    They need to buy iphones and the latest trends.
    That’s another point. How much internet access is on krakoa and is it being filtered cause it’s said that people don’t know about the council or the five but if people start coming back from the dead and posting on Twitter people are going to know on xos tarot mentioned she had a human brother. How much does he know about Krakoa? It all gets out there

  4. #34
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    260

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    It was said that you cannot own anything on Krakoa, so bars and infrastructures are not owned by anyone. Leah Williams called it a happy communist society or something on this line.

    Emma asked to be the sole distributor for Hellfire, so I guess the Company is not Krakoa based either. Like all the other Xavier companies.
    Cool. So state owned, and not for profit I imagine. So what we're getting is the beginnings of a society, although starting from a much more advanced level.

    Problems are coming then. Will, say Blob, be happy serving bar whilst some other mutants just sit round getting hammered? There are people working (effectively for the state) and people doing nothing. Will there be petty jealousies? Human nature says yes. Therefore those working will need to be rewarded somehow, or work should be found for everyone who wants to work.

    I can see where it's kind of like a socialist, or communist, utopia. But does that kind of society work on the first step away from market run capitalism.

    Interestingly from the point of view of the happy communist society you mention, the initial signs of breakdown are there already. I'm hoping those administering companies off the island (Emma and Xavier as we've both mentioned) aren't using any of the profits for personal gain, that could create issues down the line.

    Thanks for your excellent reply, this thread is really making me appreciate the books all the more.

  5. #35
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    3,634

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Joe View Post

    I'm happy this has been brought up, to me it's a really interesting discussion.
    It is interesting point of island nation where zero of the economic structure is on it but it was back by some horrible points that aren't true of the situation. Yeah a discussion on infrastructure and set up of Krakoa is interesting but it doesn't have be done with lies like Krakoan can't own property or don't follow world laws.

    And how much do we know of the real world economy is transfer able to a living island that can make its own housing structures and group of people who collectively for example can make gold or diamonds. The rules have what have to happen doesn't real apply to this situation even though it is fun to think about how it should be set up.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 09-24-2020 at 05:47 AM.

  6. #36
    Spectacular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Posts
    147

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Joe View Post
    Cool. So state owned, and not for profit I imagine. So what we're getting is the beginnings of a society, although starting from a much more advanced level.

    Problems are coming then. Will, say Blob, be happy serving bar whilst some other mutants just sit round getting hammered? There are people working (effectively for the state) and people doing nothing. Will there be petty jealousies? Human nature says yes. Therefore those working will need to be rewarded somehow, or work should be found for everyone who wants to work.

    I can see where it's kind of like a socialist, or communist, utopia. But does that kind of society work on the first step away from market run capitalism.

    Interestingly from the point of view of the happy communist society you mention, the initial signs of breakdown are there already. I'm hoping those administering companies off the island (Emma and Xavier as we've both mentioned) aren't using any of the profits for personal gain, that could create issues down the line.

    Thanks for your excellent reply, this thread is really making me appreciate the books all the more.
    My god could we actually see controlled markets on krakoa? Assigned homes assigned food allotment, assigned tasks, now that would be interesting to see and discuss. Especially when the island is your landlord and your state

  7. #37
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    260

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLimboBabies View Post
    They need to buy iphones and the latest trends.
    Need? Or want?

    Don't get me wrong, I completely understand what you're saying. But at what point is a line drawn. Is every mutant on Krakoa entitled to everything they need? Everything they want? Or something in between?

  8. #38
    Mighty Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,950

    Default

    Well we have seen the characters shopping on other countries as well as paying for their drinks on Krakoa so my guess is that they do have a national currency, this means there must be someone in charge of their banks and of producing their currency we have just not seen them yet.

    Most of the economy is actually controlled by Emma, Sebastian Shaw and Xavier but I expect once the story develops more people will add their own bussines like M or Angel who are in charge of X-corp.

    As far as their economic system seems to be it looks mixed for me, they have state controlled health and food services but they can also choose to go to other places to buy what they need or want.
    "The time for subtlety is passing. Now is the time for change." [New Mutants (Vol. 1) #38]

  9. #39
    Spectacular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Posts
    147

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    And how much do we know of the real world economy is transfer able to a living island that can make its own housing structures and group of people who collectively for example can make gold or diamonds. The rules have what have to happen doesn't real apply to this situation even though it is fun to think about how it should be set up.
    Gold and diamonds don’t have intrinsic value. They are actually worthless, their “value” comes from rarity. We can already make artificial diamonds. They just have no value because they are common. So krakoa making gold and diamonds would actually lose them money

  10. #40
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Posts
    4,744

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantor View Post
    If we are to assume there are as many mutants living ok krakoa as the data pages say and we assume food and shelter was built by krakoa himself that still leaves service labor. Cooking, cleaning, maintenance. Does krakoa fix your toilet? (Side note does Krakoa let you have a toilet?) if not someone has to do it. Even if the economy is life energy in exchange for Krakoa giving you everything. Should everyone pay the same amount of energy even if they don’t demand as much? There is an economy at play here
    Cooking and cleaning from what we have seen in the Sextant and Summers House is done autonomously by each family unit.

    Of course we can take for granted that people like Emma or Shaw are not going to stoop to that but we have seen that Krakoa can build drones that perform simple tasks.

    In your example the toilets are probably part of Krakoa and the island "recycles" mutant waste. However, much of the cleaning must be unnecessary in Krakoa. Why are you going to sweep or mop the floor? The floor is Krakoa, sure that it can absorb any substance that falls there and clean itself.

    Krakoa is the first interested in keeping the mutants comfortable and happy. Small reforms are not an effort for them, they have mutant energy to spare.

  11. #41
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    260

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantor View Post
    My god could we actually see controlled markets on krakoa? Assigned homes assigned food allotment, assigned tasks, now that would be interesting to see and discuss. Especially when the island is your landlord and your state
    Looks like you and me are thinking along very similar lines. Fascinating.

    It just keeps giving this new direction, it could go on for years.

    I guess the original poster never really expected the discussion to go this way, but your points further up about work and repairs etc was exactly what I was thinking about.

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    4,591

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantor View Post
    Ok one more time krakoa sells drugs for money. And that money goes where? A big vault next to saber tooth? They donít have currency on krakoa! They holding the money in bitcoins? Krakoa doesnít have an economy. All the businesses they ďownĒ they donít own anymore because they changed the laws about mutants being immune to human laws. Like owning property. So technically krakoa is broke. They could be making billions of dollars trading the flower drugs but they have no actual way to spend the money. Your argument is businesses will do what the mutants say out of fear. Fear of what? They donít have any money! Look I get it. The answer is ďbecause the writer said soĒ itís just frustrating because this is a story about building a nation and the parts about nation building are just hand waved. But fine Emma just mind controls all the banks. I answered my own question omg
    Hellfire Trading Company is legally selling medicines that have saved lives, or help people get better. There would be no legal authority to seize their accounts.

  13. #43
    Spectacular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Posts
    147

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Joe View Post
    Looks like you and me are thinking along very similar lines. Fascinating.

    It just keeps giving this new direction, it could go on for years.

    I guess the original poster never really expected the discussion to go this way, but your points further up about work and repairs etc was exactly what I was thinking about.
    I am the original poster

  14. #44
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    260

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Well we have seen the characters shopping on other countries as well as paying for their drinks on Krakoa so my guess is that they do have a national currency, this means there must be someone in charge of their banks and of producing their currency we have just not seen them yet.

    Most of the economy is actually controlled by Emma, Sebastian Shaw and Xavier but I expect once the story develops more people will add their own bussines like M or Angel who are in charge of X-corp.

    As far as their economic system seems to be it looks mixed for me, they have state controlled health and food services but they can also choose to go to other places to buy what they need or want.
    Check out my earlier post about currency. They won't necessarily have, or need their own currency or bank. They could be using a friendly nation's currency, an, or, be pegged to another currency for the time being. That would mean that they also have a fixed rate of exchange based on the stronger currency.

    If they've gone their own way already (I assume Tempo would be able to make it possible), trading in their currency could have been mentally controlled for it to make vast amounts of money.

    Really interesting stuff this.

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Joe View Post
    Cool. So state owned, and not for profit I imagine. So what we're getting is the beginnings of a society, although starting from a much more advanced level.

    Problems are coming then. Will, say Blob, be happy serving bar whilst some other mutants just sit round getting hammered? There are people working (effectively for the state) and people doing nothing. Will there be petty jealousies? Human nature says yes. Therefore those working will need to be rewarded somehow, or work should be found for everyone who wants to work.

    I can see where it's kind of like a socialist, or communist, utopia. But does that kind of society work on the first step away from market run capitalism.

    Interestingly from the point of view of the happy communist society you mention, the initial signs of breakdown are there already. I'm hoping those administering companies off the island (Emma and Xavier as we've both mentioned) aren't using any of the profits for personal gain, that could create issues down the line.

    Thanks for your excellent reply, this thread is really making me appreciate the books all the more.
    Yeah human nature would make this very hard. There's a couple things that differentiate them though, such as psychic powers/being able to get into each other minds and understand each other better, or Resurrections. Forge is also working on automatons so I guess that smething like serving a bar could be automated. I think that if I were a Krakoan I'd feel the need to do some kind of job after a while, though.

    They also ask mutants that arrive on the island if they want to train or join X-Corps as interns, which is about dealing with their money, so they're probably opening up more jobs as time goes on.

    I love the points you've raised too

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •