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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Joe View Post
    I mean, not just that, but of course what you've brought up stands out. But 12 people running an entire country? 12 people with no expertise in healthcare, economics, state education, defence, agriculture, overseas development, diplomacy, policing and a host of other things. I know, preposterous.

    But we suspend disbelief when reading comics, don't we? Saying that though, I'm like you, I feel that the society would start to break down, and I think that should be addressed. I think people would leave because they're not being properly provided for.

    The council is effectively a government, each member is like a cabinet minister and probably needs to have specific tasks, it's all a bit (a lot) arbitrary really.

    We can excuse it because it's just being set up, and things may change, but they need to change quickly, they need hundreds of civil servants in all departments. You just have to look at how government works in any country in the world.

    Some of the departments would make more interesting books than others I guess.

    The thing is they're not yet governing by consent, that's got to be dangerous for all of the council.
    The economic, political and social situation of Dawn of X often reminds me to a line from the musical Hamilton:
    "Thomas, that was a real nice declaration, Welcome to the present, we're running a real nation."

    Comming from a debate (rap battle) in the second half of the play, where Alexander Hamilton's plans for new debt and establishing a national bank (in order to allow the new nation to collectively grow), come clashing with Thomas Jefferson who sees his home state of Virginia as needlessly taxed and robbed of their financial independence:
    "Oh, if the shoe fits, wear it; If New York's in debt, why should Virginia bear it?; Uh, our debts are paid, I'm afraid; Don't tax the South 'cause we got it made in the shade; In Virginia, we plant seeds in the ground; We create, you just wanna move our money around; This financial plan is an outrageous demand; And it's too many damn pages for any man to understand"

    Which kind of highlights how difficult it can be to build a nation from scratch when all the different interest groups are finaly forced to actualy get the whole thing running.

    In a making of book for the play Lin Manuel Miranda notes that the first half of the play with the brewing rebellion and War for Indepence was rather easy to make exciting. After all it's rebellion, war and love between people held appart by events.
    Meanwhile the second half which involves economics, finances and political arguments was much more difficult to make interesting because it is economics, finaces and political arguments.

    I can imagine for similar reasons most of the current X-men writers are rather uninterested to actualy put any focus on establishing or working out these aspects in any nuanced and/or clever way.
    Instead most of the characters seem to be written to just snobbishly saying how much better they are than the "humans" and completely ignore the long term effects of constant replication upon death. (Which of course ignores they are all still human in mind and spirit and just as likely to make the same mistakes down the road).

    However this potential lack of interest seems to be build into the whole story from the start.
    After all this nation did infact just suddently pop out of nowhere via a retcon, provides every need the people on it ever need, provides clean super duper technology which makes the "human" technology look bad, makes everyone rich and is undefeatable because it has the largest collective of super humans on the planets.

    Which frees the writers from actualy having to ponder about social, political and economic changes the new status quo has on the people in the nation, on the people outside the nation and how such a fanastic (in terms of technology and super powers of the individuals) society is effectively run in a long term manner, they just need to sell how wonderfull and better it is than anything before.
    Because that stuff is "boring" and doesn't involve Magneto talking down on regular human politicans and throwing giant metal pieces at enemies.

    Of course that's just my impression i get from the status quo so far. I can't say if it's the writers direct interests or not.

    Overall though that's also why i'm not giving the nation much chance in terms longlivity. Since it all stands on very shaky narrative foundations. Trying to be both a super nation (like Wakanda or for an evil counterpart Genosha), while not being bound to any established nations, cultures or borders and having the overall longterm goal to take over the world (which nobody neither heros or villains is allowed to achieve for long).

    Some side note.
    A lot of how the mutants act in the current status quo also reminds me to the first two seasons of Star Trek Next Generation, where Gene Roddenberry in his believe in an utopic future version of humanity, forbade any arguments or fights between federation personal and basicly forced writers to have the crew constantly talk bad about the human past and how they are so much more advanced now.

    Which famously didn't help the show much, until the writers were allowed to balance the utopic elements of the new Federation and humanity out with having the characters actualy act like human (or humanoid aliens) with failings, a more balanced view on the past and arguments with each other.

    I guess a good sign for the characters starting to become more critical and argumentative in Dawn of X will be once Cyclops decides to grow out a beard.
    Last edited by Grunty; 09-24-2020 at 11:54 AM.

  2. #62
    Mighty Member Frobisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Joe View Post
    The thing is they're not yet governing by consent, that's got to be dangerous for all of the council.
    Actually, I disagree with this bit, as everyone is first generation, and no-one is forcing them to go and live in this country. Itís sort of like the argument that taxes are basically like paying a subscription to be a member of a club and enjoy all the benefits that come with it, except that youíre not born into clubs and itís generally easier to join another club if the one youíre in is rubbish than it is to move to another country. But the mutants just moved there and they do have a choice.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grunty View Post
    The economic, political and social situation of Dawn of X often reminds me to a line from the musical Hamilton:
    "Thomas, that was a real nice declaration, Welcome to the present, we're running a real nation."

    Comming from a debate (rap battle) in the second half of the play, where Alexander Hamilton's plans for new debt and establishing a national bank (in order to allow the new nation to collectively grow), come clashing with Thomas Jefferson who sees his home state of Virginia as needlessly taxed and robbed of their financial independence:
    "Oh, if the shoe fits, wear it; If New York's in debt, why should Virginia bear it?; Uh, our debts are paid, I'm afraid; Don't tax the South 'cause we got it made in the shade; In Virginia, we plant seeds in the ground; We create, you just wanna move our money around; This financial plan is an outrageous demand; And it's too many damn pages for any man to understand"

    Which kind of highlights how difficult it can be to build a nation from scratch when all the different interest groups are finaly forced to actualy get the whole thing running.

    In a making of book for the play Lin Manuel Miranda notes that the first half of the play with the brewing rebellion and War for Indepence was rather easy to make exciting. After all it's rebellion, war and love between people held appart by events.
    Meanwhile the second half which involves economics, finances and political arguments was much more difficult to make interesting because it is economics, finaces and political arguments.

    I can imagine for similar reasons most of the current X-men writers are rather uninterested to actualy put any focus on establishing or working out these aspects in any nuanced and/or clever way.
    Instead most of the characters seem to be written to just snobbishly saying how much better they are than the "humans" and completely ignore the long term effects of constant replication upon death. (Which of course ignores they are all still human in mind and spirit and just as likely to make the same mistakes down the road).

    However this potential lack of interest seems to be build into the whole story from the start.
    After all this nation did infact just suddently pop out of nowhere via a retcon, provides every need the people on it ever need, provides clean super duper technology which makes the "human" technology look bad, makes everyone rich and is undefeatable because it has the largest collective of super humans on the planets.

    Which frees the writers from actualy having to ponder about social, political and economic changes the new status quo has on the people in the nation, on the people outside the nation and how such a fanastic (in terms of technology and super powers of the individuals) society is effectively run in a long term manner, they just need to sell how wonderfull and better it is than anything before.
    Because that stuff is "boring" and doesn't involve Magneto talking down on regular human politicans and throwing giant metal pieces at enemies.

    Of course that's just my impression i get from the status quo so far. I can't say if it's the writers direct interests or not.

    Overall though that's also why i'm not giving the nation much chance in terms longlivity. Since it all stands on very shaky narrative foundations. Trying to be both a super nation (like Wakanda or for an evil counterpart Genosha), while not being bound to any established nations, cultures or borders and having the overall longterm goal to take over the world (which nobody neither heros or villains is allowed to achieve for long).

    Some side note.
    A lot of how the mutants act in the current status quo also reminds me to the first two seasons of Star Trek Next Generation, where Gene Roddenberry in his believe in an utopic future version of humanity, forbade any arguments or fights between federation personal and basicly forced writers to have the crew constantly talk bad about the human past and how they are so much more advanced now.

    Which famously didn't help the show much, until the writers were allowed to balance the utopic elements of the new Federation and humanity out with having the characters actualy act like human (or humanoid aliens) with failings, a more balanced view on the past and arguments with each other.

    I guess a good sign for the characters starting to become more critical and argumentative in Dawn of X will be once Cyclops decides to grow out a beard.
    Wow. A great post. Seems to sum up the entire premise currently. But I do think it's got really good chances to continue and progress, even as a nation, long term. I'm sure some of the issues you and others have raised will start to be addressed and hopefully solutions found.

    I was just watching Dr Zhivago, and thought about certain parallels with early Soviet Russia. They got through it, but at what cost? Really interesting stuff today.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frobisher View Post
    Actually, I disagree with this bit, as everyone is first generation, and no-one is forcing them to go and live in this country. It’s sort of like the argument that taxes are basically like paying a subscription to be a member of a club and enjoy all the benefits that come with it, except that you’re not born into clubs and it’s generally easier to join another club if the one you’re in is rubbish than it is to move to another country. But the mutants just moved there and they do have a choice.
    Of course you're right, but how long does the honeymoon period last?

    In King's The Stand when the Free Zone committee forms those originally on that committee were mostly the obvious choices, much like Krakoa, but they set limits on the length of their initial term. Towards the end of the book there were people campaigning to be elected to the council.

    I really think the same should be starting to happen in Krakoa, if not right now, then soon. Not everyone there is going to be happy with everything and everyone.

    Your point about them having a choice is correct, and I think I mentioned that I'd expect to have seen people leave already. Soon enough some will believe they have more than one other choice, so stay with the current status quo, leave, or change the way things are run.

    Some people think that the club they've joined could be run better, I expect this to be addressed, I'd be interested to see who the opposition begins to coalesce around.

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