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  1. #61
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    And the publisher can't afford to pay in advance for work that may not be finished in a timely manner or at all.
    You don't get paid until it's DONE.

    The floppies allow the publishers to break up the payment of the creators into a timely manner, i.e. every month.
    Then you STOP writing for trades and do stand alone stories like we ALL grew up on in the 70s-80s-90s.

    You don't do a 10 volume epic clunkfest story like Coates does in Black Panther.

    Take any trade you have and look through it-how much stuff could be taken out? Especially stuff by BENDIS?

    You can also PAY an artist and writer for stories and publish them later.

    Tony Isabella was paid to do 4 Rocket Racer stories (4-5 pages long) in 1990. Between 1990-1996-we saw those stories printed in Marvel Tales or Spider-Man annual.


    And like Hypestyle said get comics with POC into ethnic shops. And start to promote gay characters and book them in LTBGQ Friendly stores.
    I think the issue is distribution-I never saw a mainstream comic book in black owned book stores with the exception of Brotherman.

    Yet I saw all those horrible ones that never made it past issue one.

    And you would have the same issue that comic book stores have-those places don't attract large crowds of people. In some places they don't exist.

    I had 4-5 growing up near me. 2 were NEVER open when I went to them DESPITE signs saying they were suppose to be open.

    All of them are gone.


    I know folks want to bring up cost.....

    IDW Star Trek Ongoing series

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...-before-part-1


    Hardcover, 24 pages
    Published September 1st 2013 by Abdo Publishing Company
    ISBN1614791619 (ISBN13: 9781614791614)
    That is not a JOKE-that book retails for $20.
    I have seen this book and that was NOT the only one.
    Marvel is guilty too.

    While most of these I have seen in libraries. Someone is buying them.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    I am not sure if this is a thing right now but if its not why not try it. Why not have the companies do an online store not for digital but for floppies. let people who have no access to comic shops or other retailers go online to buy floppies and ship them out.
    Indy Planet sort of does that.


    Another thing that has been done but the EXCUTUION didn't work out.

    Because so few stores even saw theses.

    Whoever had the rights to Star Trek took EVERY book made (before 2009 movies) and put them on a dvd in PDF format.

    Archie had some like this too.

    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki...ook_Collection

    Star Trek: The Complete Comic Book Collection is a DVD-ROM from Graphic Imaging Technologies, collecting the various Star Trek comic series in PDF format, from Gold Key through to Wildstorm.

    As originally solicited, the collection would also have included the various newspaper comic strips; however, due to convoluted rights issues, GIT were unable to secure the rights to these for the collection.
    I got one when Circuit City was going out of business.

    The Archie ones I have seen at Half Price Books.

  3. #63
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    You don't get paid until it's DONE.
    Hmm...There's such a thing called an "Advance".
    https://www.writersdigest.com/financ...on-for-writers

    Been basic in book publishing for decades. Alan Moore's advance for "A Small Killing" and its sales earned him more money than Watchmen and V For Vendetta, per his biographer Lance Parkin.

    Then you STOP writing for trades and do stand alone stories like we ALL grew up on in the 70s-80s-90s.
    You mean standalone stories like "The Phoenix Saga", "The Skrull-Kree War", "The Korvac Saga", "The Dark Phoenix Saga", "Secret Wars 1984", "Under Siege", "Infinity Gauntlet", "Age of Apocalypse".

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    You mean standalone stories like "The Phoenix Saga", "The Skrull-Kree War", "The Korvac Saga", "The Dark Phoenix Saga", "Secret Wars 1984", "Under Siege", "Infinity Gauntlet", "Age of Apocalypse".
    Be fair. All of those (except maybe IG and AoA) were written more like old movie serial episodes than they were novel chapters the way today's runs are.
    Last edited by DrNewGod; 09-26-2020 at 08:44 AM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Hmm...There's such a thing called an "Advance".
    https://www.writersdigest.com/financ...on-for-writers

    Been basic in book publishing for decades. Alan Moore's advance for "A Small Killing" and its sales earned him more money than Watchmen and V For Vendetta, per his biographer Lance Parkin.



    You mean standalone stories like "The Phoenix Saga", "The Skrull-Kree War", "The Korvac Saga", "The Dark Phoenix Saga", "Secret Wars 1984", "Under Siege", "Infinity Gauntlet", "Age of Apocalypse".
    Those were big events back in the day and part of the reason WHY they were big events is because they weren't doing them once a year. Every few years you might get a big event and even then it was usually just for a couple of months. Books didn't do six issue arc-MAJOR CROSSOVER-another six issue arc.

  6. #66
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    Meh, another voice screaming at the void, "There are things in this world that people other than me like? Ban them! Only things *I* like should be made! Everyone, put down what you are doing and cater only to *my* tastes and preferences!"

  7. #67
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    Meh, another voice screaming at the void, "There are things in this world that people other than me like? Ban them! Only things *I* like should be made! Everyone, put down what you are doing and cater only to *my* tastes and preferences!"
    I'm not sure if you are referring to Conway, because the guy is saying the exact opposite.

  8. #68
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Be fair. All of those (except maybe IG and AoA) We're written more like old movie serial elisodes than they were novel chapters the way today's runs are.
    You know in the 19th Century, novels were published serially. Chapters came out monthly in magazines, that includes stuff like Oliver Twist and so on. Those books of the 19th Century were overlong and thick because writers padded out stories for bread...of course eventually the story found an ending and stopping point all the same.

    So this distinction between novel chapters and serial storytelling isn't all that clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Those were big events back in the day and part of the reason WHY they were big events is because they weren't doing them once a year. Every few years you might get a big event and even then it was usually just for a couple of months. Books didn't do six issue arc-MAJOR CROSSOVER-another six issue arc.
    Marvel Comics and also DC in that time had strong serialized continuity where stories dovetailed one into another. So the distinction doesn't exist.

    Y'all make it sound like each issue was standalone or something, it wasn't. Or that it practised negative continuity a la The Simpsons (where in general most episodes don't really count or flow sequentially one after another). Marvel comics then had serial story-arcs, subplots and stuff that paid off over time. Claremont's run starting from 1975-1980 exemplified that.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 09-25-2020 at 04:02 PM.

  9. #69
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    So this distinction between novel chapters and serial storytelling isn't all that clear.
    I think what we are talking about is trying to make this as accessible for younger readers as it is practical. I just plucked out a random issue of UXM, #132, and you would not know it was part of some 9 issue epic. A new reader knows some stuff happened before, gets a lot of stuff in one issue, and then a cool (and iconic) cliffhanger because they want to come back to see what happens next issue and not ever thinking 'I guess we got five more issues of this before the end'.

    And that is not just an example meant to define this or that era, I have not even touched on the more drastic changes since then, but I don't think anyone can discuss this with any honesty and not see how things have changed, and arguing over the exact way things are described seems to just be missing the point. It comes off as Conway is alluding to, as people wanting to enjoy what they enjoy now because it is being given to them but not wanting to acknowledge the poor state of the industry because of it.

    Ultimately, do you think the current mainstream (direct market) comic book industry is heading towards a dead end? If so, do you think it needs radical changes? If not, how do you see the industry evolving over the next 10 years?

  10. #70
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    I think what we are talking about is trying to make this as accessible for younger readers as it is practical.
    First thing we need to discuss is exactly who we mean by "younger readers". Conway said that his aim was Middle Graders who were the right age for the first HP book (11-13 let's say).

    Here's the reality. By the time a kid hits 11 today, they are exposed to multiple versions of superheroes all before reading a comic. The true introduction of comics characters to the audience is toys, it's merchandise. You know Spider-Man logos, Iron Man keychains, Thor backpacks, Cap bottles, sneakers and pajamas with logos. Toddlers know these characters and icons as symbols and logos before they learn anything else about them. We also live in the reality of cheapjack youtube videos (you know "baby shark") (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKp2...l=FoldingIdeas). A bunch of cheapjack videos where little kids hit YT kids and find Spider-Man and Elsa and others in races. Often called "ball videos" in searches. This is when they are toddlers and way too young to read the comics or for that matter anything since they wouldn't be able to understand and process anything. Then when they are older (say 7-9) they might see cartoons on TV or YouTube and so on. They might see the latest MCU movie or older movies on Cable and so on. When they hit 11, they want to play videogames, and find a superhero game to play.

    The fact is that the comics', i.e. 616 Marvel, isn't the introduction to these characters the way it was in Conway's time (and even then you did have the '67 Spider-Man cartoon, Electric Company shorts, and so on). No amount of marketing, distribution, outreach attempts in the "What's up cool kids" sense is gonna work.

    I just plucked out a random issue of UXM, #132, and you would not know it was part of some 9 issue epic. A new reader knows some stuff happened before, gets a lot of stuff in one issue, and then a cool (and iconic) cliffhanger because they want to come back to see what happens next issue and not ever thinking 'I guess we got five more issues of this before the end'.
    Well a lot of readers discovered X-Men through HoX/PoX and loved the complexity, detail, density, and scope of ideas in those stories too. So I don't see what your point is. I mean Hickman's current X-Men run on the title i.e. X-Men (2019) is mostly a series of one-shots anyway. It's far less interconnected then his Avengers' runs.

    And that is not just an example meant to define this or that era, I have not even touched on the more drastic changes since then, but I don't think anyone can discuss this with any honesty and not see how things have changed, and arguing over the exact way things are described seems to just be missing the point.
    Conway wrote a lengthy series of posts with details and specific references, not a single post or tweet saying "the comics' business is in bad shape" which is true. If he's writing a detailed list and giving actual suggestions on improvement, then I do think you need to scrutinize to make sure that the details add up, otherwise you create a situation where wrong lessons are learned, wrong assumptions are spread, wrong solutions are proposed for real problems.

    What Conway is doing is making a content issue the problem when in fact it's
    A) a distribution issue quite separate from content,
    B) pay issue and union issues (lack-of-one really), also separate from content.

    Ultimately, do you think the current mainstream (direct market) comic book industry is heading towards a dead end?
    It's been in a dead end for some time, yeah. But inertia has kept it afloat. And when the end comes, I foresee a whimper, not a bang.

    The Pandemic hasn't outright crushed the direct market, at least not yet. DC leaving the Direct Market seems to have largely backfired on DC and I can see the end of DC Comics on the horizon because it's got corporate owners, AT&T who are less secure and confident than Walt Disney, and are chomping at the bit to gut the company to pay off its debts. DC Comics will need extraordinary success to turn things around, and they are not gonna cut it.

    If so, do you think it needs radical changes?
    In terms of how the industries treats creators, its anti-union history, and so on, yeah they do need radical changes.

    In terms of asinine moves like cancelling every comic and self-enforcing comics to CCA era norms...no. Those changes will not in any sense achieve the ends it wishes for. Dumbing down superhero comics to a '50s or '60s conception of a 12 year old audience, based on the advice of notorious sexual predator Julius Schwartz, to a bunch of 13 year old scabs he brought in to replace Gardner Fox's failed union attempt, is not what the industry needs.

    If not, how do you see the industry evolving over the next 10 years?
    There will be comics for sure. It might be webcomics, no will be webcomics, you might also get a new kind of comic that integrates digital stuff and so on. Digital comics will become the default while print (which will never die, print is like vinyl) will be limited runs, collector's run and so on.

    I'm not worried about the comics as a medium. The possible downfall of Marvel and DC will be hard for a lot of people but for the owners of the IP, Disney and whoever AT and T inevitably resells DC/WB at a markup to, will still hold on to the rights of the IP and use it to generate properties on. The people who get screwed over will be writers, artists, inkers, editors and others. And ultimately, theirs is an union issue because they are expendable and will be the ones left holding the bag at the end of this. No amount of changes in content, messaging, marketing is going to save them because the system is rigged against them.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 09-25-2020 at 06:39 PM.

  11. #71

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    Are there even numbers on new readers? How do we tell if there are new readers, and how many? Comichron only can tell so much. The sales numbers don't seem to reflect any jump. And this year is extremely difficult to tell with everything having stopped in March and then taking a bit before comics were released again.
    Last edited by GenericUsername; 09-26-2020 at 01:47 PM.
    Was Curlytop

  12. #72
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Convay
    What today's book publishers would call Middle-Grade Readers. This makes sense. If we're honest about it, the basic, root appeal of superhero stories is to that part of ourselves that lives in a pre-sexualized, pre-adolescent dream state in which anything is possible. It's the world of "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone." Like "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" (or Philosopher's Stone if you want to be pedantic), young adults and adults can enjoy superhero stories too, and even want those stories to evolve and mature, just as the Potter books evolved and matured. But. But. But Regardless of what appeal the first Potter book might have for older and existing readers…its primary readership was intended to be, and remains, Middle-Grade, 8 to 12. And the same used to be true for comics, particularly superhero comics. Until my generation came along. Yeah, we Boomers f**ked it up, as usual.
    I remember reading that a mother and her boy were looking for a Thor story at a comics shop after they were watching a Thor movie and were puzzled to see a female Thor.
    The mainstream media is now movies and TV shows and, in my opinion, it is stupid not to benefit from these powerhouses and from these people and their want to prolong their pleasure as a viewer. It’s not at all the same kind of comics that enjoy wealthy boomers who can buy expensive comics.

    I suppose it’s a matter of choice but it’s easier to be a new viewer of Marvel movies than a new reader of Marvel comics. The movies are so expensive that they aim to an audience the largest as possible. They are the ones that lead the dance.

  13. #73
    Spectacular Member Ikari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    You mean standalone stories like "The Phoenix Saga", "The Skrull-Kree War", "The Korvac Saga", "The Dark Phoenix Saga", "Secret Wars 1984", "Under Siege", "Infinity Gauntlet", "Age of Apocalypse".
    Wasn't 'Dark Phoenix Saga' standalone, in the sense it was entirely UXM? But that's actually bit of a point, I don't think it could be done today, at that form.

    Any way, many of these early crossovers were wildly successful, it's true. When Fonzie jumped over 14 garbage barrels with a motorcycle, that was a big success too. Then he jumped over the shark pool and it was 'meh'.

  14. #74
    Spectacular Member DavidRA's Avatar
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    It's hard to argue with anything Conway says.
    Give me Brexit or give me death.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidRA View Post
    It's hard to argue with anything Conway says.
    I could swear that I just heard half the forum crack its knuckles.

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