Gerry Conway: "Cancel all superhero comics!"

[The Overlord]

Yes.



Because it's not blaming the real culprits, i.e. the system of editorial and distribution. It's making the work of fellow creators who write after him into scapegoats.



Except for the Pandemic, nothing in the present situation is substantially different in the comics market since the late 2000s and so on.



It's not my desire or intention to "beat" Conway. Merely refute the assumptions and poor reasoning behind his screed and defend what I feel is collateral damage.



Not everyone knows how to be a president or how to run a business, but they know enough that a certain someone is doing it all wrong.



By this logic "ingesting bleach" is also a real solution that demonstrates actual thinking. This kind of nostrum that one is wrong for merely criticizing is anti-intellectual pure and simple.

You keep on saying he is wrong, but you don't seem to offer an alternative solution to this problem?

Because again look at the graveyard of companies that have collapsed.

Doesn't mean Marvel or DC cannot collapse in the future. They probably will if they keeping relying on the same aging fan base.

I don't see any evidence that this issue of continuity is the reason for the problem of the industry.



An issue that was immediately touted as one of the best single issues in recent Marvel, instantly popular and beloved, and widely welcomed and embraced across the board.

And how many new readers did this story bring in?

People like science-fiction.

No rule set up in the X-Universe was violated. We never once saw the original meeting between Moira and Xavier.

Was there any setup or foreshadowing of Moria even being a mutant before this?

I am sure people can chip in examples...but take "Luke I'm your father", that was a retcon introduced in TESB, "Leia is your sister" introduced in ROTJ...all of those movies were successful and made bank. .

That is a pretty minor retcon compared to the Clone Saga or One More Day or this Moria storyline.

This more like the Terminator film timeline that has become such a convoluted mess, that they have rebooted the timeline several times and the universe makes no sense pass the second movie.

Heck was Rey retconned into being Palpatine's grand daughter in the last Star Wars movie good storytelling? That is part of canon and a major retcon, was that good?

New readers get to be part of history. They get an issue that boldly and permanently changed the X-Men stories and from then on, they get to say, "i was there when The uncanny life of Moira X hit the stands' and to paraphrase Napoleon, it would suffice for one of them to say that for later generations to reply with awe, "now that's a fanboy".

Where is your evidence that supports that this story brought in a ton of new readers?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

You keep on saying he is wrong, but you don't seem to offer an alternative solution to this problem?

My solution is simply ignore Conway's screed. That will be far more useful than in entertaining and validating such childish ideas.

Doesn't mean Marvel or DC cannot collapse in the future. They probably will if they keeping relying on the same aging fan base.

In the technical sense Marvel and DC have long collapsed as companies. Neither are independent publishing entities as they were in their heydey they are bought and owned by big corporates. Marvel and DC in fiscal terms cannot collapse any more than they already have. Marvel and DC will continue as entities even if they stop selling comics.

And how many new readers did this story bring in?

Not gonna do your job for you.

[The Overlord]

My solution is simply ignore Conway's screed. That will be far more useful than in entertaining and validating such childish ideas..

So your solution is to do nothing? That seems like what Blockbuster did in 2010.

In the technical sense Marvel and DC have long collapsed as companies. Neither are independent publishing entities as they were in their heydey they are bought and owned by big corporates. Marvel and DC in fiscal terms cannot collapse any more than they already have. Marvel and DC will continue as entities even if they stop selling comics.

Warner Bros bought DC in the late 60s, did DC collapse then?

Disney bought Marvel for 4 billion dollars, not bad for a company that was bankrupt in the late 90s. The thing is Disney bought solely for the IP and the profits it can generate in other media, Disney did not buy them to make comics, that is irrelevant to Disney.

At this point other media does use these characters in a way that is more accessible to the general masses then the comics do. Comic book characters are more important then the comic book format is.

Not gonna do your job for you.

That's not how the burden of proof works, you keep saying new readers will come in even if Marvel and DC don't change their storytelling tactics, but you offered no proof of that.

Here is what you are saying:

Conway: Comic books are failing to bring in new readers, things need to change, this what I propose...

You: Those changes are bad, comics will find new readers because that is what Marvel and DC did in the past.

Me: How do you know those same tactics will work on today's completely plugged in young people?

You:........it worked when Stan Lee was EIC at Marvel.

You keep saying you have demolished Conway's arguments, but you haven't, you have offered your own opinions based on stuff when you grew up, rather talking about kids today, you keep on talking when Stan Lee was EIC is if that has any relevance to kids and young people today.

[skyvolt2000]

Comics' history is full of Blockbuster Videos = Fawcett Comics (which in the '40s outsold Superman), Charlton Comics, Quality Comics, Malibu Comics, Milestone Comics, Wildstorm. Marvel and DC have survived and swallowed the rest.

FYI Milestone is NOT a DC property. Dc has ZERO ownership of them. Dc writes a CHECK to Milestone ownership for rights to use them.

Another FYI Milestone like Vertigo books had a beginning, middle and an END. They were not looking for Static #100.

Another FYI Milestone used DC for publishing because it got their books into stores unlike the other black companies who books did not get in a comic book store. Let alone make it past issue one.

New readers get to be part of history. They get an issue that boldly and permanently changed the X-Men stories and from then on, they get to say, "i was there when The uncanny life of Moira X hit the stands' and to paraphrase Napoleon, it would suffice for one of them to say that for later generations to reply with awe, "now that's a fanboy".

Reminder those comic chron numbers are books SOLD to a store. Not books BOUGHT by a person.
And UNLIKE every POC lead book-X-Men books get shelf space and get way more orders than they should. It's why when you visit a story X-Men like Batman books are in BULK everywhere.
So who are all these readers that they are attracting???

Because it's not blaming the real culprits, i.e. the system of editorial and distribution. It's making the work of fellow creators who write after him into scapegoats.

How???

New readers aren't welcomed by the existing creative strategy at the two mainstream publishers— if anything, new readers are actively *discouraged* by the publishers' frantic pursuit of motivated, existing readership. The clubhouse is closed. Stay out.

At one point I had a conversation with then-editor Julie Schwartz. We were talking about a Green Lantern story, and I made some fanboy comment about what I hoped would happen. Julie paused and looked at me. "How old are you?" "Fourteen," I said. He snorted. "Too old. You're not my reader." And he walked off.

When I and my cohorts replaced the creatives who'd given the comic book business massive success in the 1960s, folks like Stan Lee and Julie Schwartz, we brought with us our Boomer self-obsession. We didn't want to create comics for kids. We wanted comics for *us.*

He is calling both writers and editorial OUT.

He is calling out the folks who didn't want a Static Shock inspired comic book from that HIT tv show.
He's calling out the folks who failed to take advantage of the cartoons and movies and chose to PANDER to certain folks.
He's calling out the folks who think 50 Batman books a month is solution.

I'd cancel every existing superhero comic book, and publish a limited new line for a Middle-Grade readership, simplify characters and storylines, and eliminate every "event" that requires more than passing familiarity with the basic simplified continuity. Ten-fifteen titles.

For existing readers, I'd offer a separate, higher priced graphic novel line with whatever expanded adult storylines creators and readers want to explore. But this would be separate. Not monthly. Not the mainstream.

And I'd do *everything* possible to get monthly comics into supermarkets and movie theaters and Walmart and Target and Costco and offer subscription services through Amazon. Pursue every alternate distribution Avenue possible.

He called out distribution as well.
He wants them to go after kids and leave the adult stuff for complete trades.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

So your solution is to do nothing?

Ignoring bad ideas isn't doing nothing. Criticizing wrong assumptions isn't doing nothing. I have not been doing nothing. Pointing out a real problem and providing a bad solution and fix is making the problem worse. By your logic, "ingesting bleach" is a good solution to the coronavirus because it's a solution that acknowledges the existence of a real problem. People saying not to ingest bleach aren't doing nothing. Conway's solution is the comics' equivalent of ingesting bleach.

I have no more interest in discussing anything else with you. Obviously you have some score and grudge like Mr. Conway has. You don't like the content of the comics, which is your prerogative, and like Travis Bickle in Taxi Driver you fantasize "about a real rain that will come and wash the scum of the streets" as a kind of vicarious vindication of your dislike. That to me is childish and sad.

I wish you a good day.

FYI Milestone is NOT a DC property. Dc has ZERO ownership of them. Dc writes a CHECK to Milestone ownership for rights to use them.

Well good for Milestone.

He is calling out...

In other words, whatever you and others are projecting that he is calling out. Conway struck blindly and rashly and you and others decide to use that to validate your grudges and settle the scores you have. That's not intellectually fair.

[The Overlord]

Ignoring bad ideas isn't doing nothing. Criticizing wrong assumptions isn't doing nothing. I have not been doing nothing. Pointing out a real problem and providing a bad solution and fix is making the problem worse. By your logic, "ingesting bleach" is a good solution to the coronavirus because it's a solution that acknowledges the existence of a real problem. People saying not to ingest bleach aren't doing nothing. Conway's solution is the comics' equivalent of ingesting bleach.

I have no more interest in discussing anything else with you. Obviously you have some score and grudge like Mr. Conway has. You don't like the content of the comics, which is your prerogative, and like Travis Bickle in Taxi Driver you fantasize "about a real rain that will come and wash the scum of the streets" as a kind of vicarious vindication of your dislike. That to me is childish and sad.

I wish you a good day.

.

So lets get this straight....

You are saying the problem Conway identified is real, but you are saying is solution is bad when people ask you what you would do instead, you offer nothing.

A problem exists, someone offers a soilution and you do not like that solution, you rejecting the solution doesn't make the problem go away.

You have not ''demolished'' Conway, because you have not offered an alternative, it seems like you just want to maintain the status quo and have not really explained why that is the best choice.

So you say Conway's solution is akin to drinking bleach to deal with Covid-19, but what's your solution akin to, saying Covid-19 is real and doing nothing about it? You may not like Conway's solution, but you are just compalining instead of offering actual construtictive criticism, if you don't provide an alternative.

I think you are saying ''good day'' because you have not actually defended your arguments propely.

[Zelena]

3. You seem not to want to acknowledge how convoluted Marvel continuity has gotten? Let's look at X-Men, it was recently revealed that Moria Mactaggart was a mutant whose power is she will reset the timeline every time she dies and she has already died several times and reset the timeline each time she died. This is in canon, how is this a good selling point for new readers? This is nonsense, willing suspension of disbelief doesn't mean writer can defy the rules of the universe they set up? Could you imagine any other medium introducing such an insane retcon? How does this bring in new readers? And just because you do not like this retcon, doesn't mean its not in the canon, this is X-Men canon now, how is this a selling point?

An issue that was immediately touted as one of the best single issues in recent Marvel, instantly popular and beloved, and widely welcomed and embraced across the board.

And how long before it is retconned again with this cheap way to attract attention from readers? Because if it works, why not doing it again? And again?

X-men continuity is a mess… I wonder too how new readers can understand anything about it. It’s not a surprise that they come here to ask for advices.

[Ikari]

Doesn't DC more or less reset their continuity every few years? Is it really much better approach than Marvel's?

People keep harping about the continuity, but I don't think it is a problem as such, or at least not in the way that having 50+ years of publication history of a team/character means that any new story is written so that the reader is expected to remember all of it. This is generally not true at all and I don't see it being a barrier. There are lots of very long running soap operas/telenovelas with single continuity, yet they attract new viewers who sure haven't watched every back episode or plan to do so.

The problem, I think, is rather the intertwinedness of the Marvel universe. There is too much cross-referencing across and things jumping between stories. While it does make it feel more like a real universe (I mean, if Thanos is about to destroy the world, why would only Avengers answer? Surely everybody should be concerned?), it makes it hard for writers to compose a coherent story arc when they had to address some 'outside' factor all the time. Hey guys, Hydra just took over America. Stop what you're doing right now, we need ya. Galactus attacks again, lets get everyone abroad! Sorry Spider-Man, Inheritor Clones story arc begins, you have to go to Spider-Gwen's title for a while and when you come back, you will do something completely different what you have been doing last 10 issues with a completely different set of support characters, but it all makes sense if you read these issues from other titles, honest!

Take a look at for example, Whedon's Astonishing X-men run. It sold well, was generally popular and referenced to the past a lot. But what it wasn't was intertwined. It pretty much did its own thing for 25 issues and that's it.

[Snoop Dogg]

Continuity is not hard to figure out or summarize, especially when the audience already knows who most of the characters are. It's not hard to write good stories that can be read and understood without requiring a PhD in Avengers comics.

The problem, I think, is rather the intertwinedness of the Marvel universe. There is too much cross-referencing across and things jumping between stories. While it does make it feel more like a real universe (I mean, if Thanos is about to destroy the world, why would only Avengers answer? Surely everybody should be concerned?), it makes it hard for writers to compose a coherent story arc when they had to address some 'outside' factor all the time. Hey guys, Hydra just took over America. Stop what you're doing right now, we need ya. Galactus attacks again, lets get everyone abroad! Sorry Spider-Man, Inheritor Clones story arc begins, you have to go to Spider-Gwen's title for a while and when you come back, you will do something completely different what you have been doing last 10 issues with a completely different set of support characters, but it all makes sense if you read these issues from other titles, honest!

Marvel books right now might as well all be set in their own universe for how little they care about each other. The shared universe is a joke. With the exception of the X-Men line, where the writers are actually collaborating with each other. Titles can stand on their own without it being impossible to get invested in the universe. Like continuity, it just requires care.

[Raye]

And how many new readers did this story bring in?

I don't think every story has to have bringing in new readers as the goal, as long as SOME stories have that goal, it can still work. You can do X-Men aimed at older readers while also doing Ms Marvel trying to bring in new readers. We don't have to throw the old readers and style of writing under the bus in order to bring in new readers.

Was there any setup or foreshadowing of Moria even being a mutant before this?

Why does it matter if there was or not? Sometimes doing something surprising is the intent, and if you telegraph that, then it won't be surprising. It doesn't contradict anything that came before that I'm aware of, even if previous writers surely never intended this for Moira, so it's fine.

And retcons CAN be bad. They can also be good. As with anything else, it all comes down to the specifics of how it's done, not the fact that it is or isn't a retcon.

So lets get this straight....

You are saying the problem Conway identified is real, but you are saying is solution is bad when people ask you what you would do instead, you offer nothing.

A problem exists, someone offers a soilution and you do not like that solution, you rejecting the solution doesn't make the problem go away.

But a bad solution is not better than no solution. And this is a bad solution that would likely do more harm than good, because it operates under the assumption that if we make all the main books for kids, they will just kinda flock to them just... because they exist, and the reality is that they more than likely won't. Books aimed at that audience ALREADY exist, these books are ALREADY pretty much continuity free. Marvel and DC both have been making an effort in recent years to always have some books that are aimed at an audience of tweens. This is something i definitely support, and think they should continue doing and even expand, but this audience does not read the books in large enough numbers to sustain the industry, if they were to make a jump to making them their primary focus, so we need to keep the stuff aimed at older readers too, and a small line of OGNs won't cut it. (as i said before, if they are going to make an OGN line, that's the one that should be aimed at kids, tap into the audience that reads Smile etc. it's the older fans that want to keep their collection going and get pissy if you try to take their floppies away, kids don't care about that, and tend to buy trades more already) I think a subset of the older readers can be too pedantic about the minutiae of continuity and puts too much emphasis on nostalgia, and I think that's something that is toxic to comics, but it doesn't mean we just toss an entire demographic aside with maybe a few trades to appease them, while not being absolutely sure that kids will take their place in equal or greater numbers. And with how things are right now, they won't, not in the numbers needed. A combination of lack of accessibility, price, and just more variety in entertainment options, some of which are completely free, means the publishers have an uphill battle in terms of convincing kids to read the books. They won't just flock to comic shops or comixology because the number of books aimed at them suddenly doubles and continuity goes away, it is naiive to think otherwise.

I think there are things the publishers can do to help the industry, but they're smaller things, not some grand dramatic change. Reduce the price of digital by removing the printing and distribution costs from the cover price, maybe increase the books aimed at kids by 2 or 3 titles to give them some more to choose from, try and advertise them places kids will see, reduce the events, or at least make them more self contained where you don't have to buy a dozen tie-ins and the reading order is a puzzle to solve, I think all these things are at least worth a shot. But I think we also have to accept that reaching the distribution numbers of days gone by may simply be an impossibility no matter what is done.

The problem, I think, is rather the intertwinedness of the Marvel universe. There is too much cross-referencing across and things jumping between stories. While it does make it feel more like a real universe (I mean, if Thanos is about to destroy the world, why would only Avengers answer? Surely everybody should be concerned?), it makes it hard for writers to compose a coherent story arc when they had to address some 'outside' factor all the time. Hey guys, Hydra just took over America. Stop what you're doing right now, we need ya. Galactus attacks again, lets get everyone abroad! Sorry Spider-Man, Inheritor Clones story arc begins, you have to go to Spider-Gwen's title for a while and when you come back, you will do something completely different what you have been doing last 10 issues with a completely different set of support characters, but it all makes sense if you read these issues from other titles, honest!

Take a look at for example, Whedon's Astonishing X-men run. It sold well, was generally popular and referenced to the past a lot. But what it wasn't was intertwined. It pretty much did its own thing for 25 issues and that's it.

Yeah, I like that some of the characters have a long history, and can interact with other characters in the universe, in that sense i like continuity and shared universe. But I get frustrated when i discover i have to read additional books in order to figure things out and will most often just choose to drop it rather than do that. I loved HoX/PoX, but afterward, i found it frustrating how intertwined the books were, when I wanted to just read a couple of the books with my fave characters for budget, interest and time reasons. But this is not a problem that is inherent to having continuity or a shared universe, it's that i think they have the balance wrong, and it's something that i would like to see tweaked rather than thrown out.

[PCN24454]

The people who were fans of comics before aren't necessarily the ones who are fans of comics now. They might as well be new continuities in some cases.

[616MarvelYear is LeapYear]

That's where the Marvel Multiverse in 2022 comes in handy https://gizmodo.com/sounds-like-the-...ave-1847592050