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  1. #31
    Kurtty Fan Slicknickshady's Avatar
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    I want that outcome. Retcon it all.

  2. #32
    Astonishing Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    While my list of criticism of Hickman's run is quite large, if I had to narrow it down to what has almost broken me it is the resurrections and whatever is going on with Jean/Scott/Logan/(Emma). With the former I can almost put it out of my mind by ignoring the exact details Hickman uses otherwise my critical side is too bothered with the idea of caring about clones with implanted memories. The latter is probably the biggest reason, even though it seems like the smallest. The Jean/Scott relationship is too crucial to what the X-Men are to me, what stories have lasted with me all these years.

    Otherwise I could suffer with whatever else he wants to do and just whine about it like I have been doing since Decimation.
    I feel you. I'm sure it's to different degrees and with some differences, but both of your reasons are also things that are turning me off of this run.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Some people don't seem to understand the X-men has evolved passed its initial premise, Krakoa status quo might go away but the X-men can't go back. I mean comics is stupid and 95% of the time they go back to original status quo whether it is good or bad idea. But X-men trying to go back to its roots is stupid. X-men is like 200 plus characters(not including villains) and X-men now at its best needs wide space for most of these characters to exist. Utopia and Krakoa are set ups where the X-men can excel trying to go back will put large chunk of characters in permanent limbo. Some sort of reset or refresh is inventible that is just the nature of comics nothing to do with status quo itself. People are in for a rude awakening if they go all the way back, It is going to be bad because X-men has clear evolved into something else that going backwards won't fix.

    Which brings me to why do people think it is going to be mass undone, The books are selling good, It is getting good acclaim, Many of the set ups are great for future storytelling. Hickman wrote an out if the fans hated what he did and clearly they don't, just because you wrote an out doesn't mean you have to use it. I don't think they hit the reset button, we know that immortality is going to go away at some point, we know that bad guys in krakoa are going to bad guy. This run can easily end and simply shift in other direction.

    The status quo is working so well that they don't(or shouldn't) want all the toys to go back in the box, Thinking that they are going to blow stuff up and reset is people projecting imo.
    And what parts specifically are the things where the X-Men can't go back? What roots have they grown past?
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  4. #34

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    X-Men franchise has for many decades had an embarrassment of riches in terms of characters. When it is operating at peak performance, it can support several team books with their own casts/mission statements. They can operate completely independently or in a tightly knit fashion. None of this is dependent on the Krakoa status quo. Not even with Hickman shepherding the line can all the books be of equal quality, execute the nation-state concept with nuance and grace. Without him the concepts would unravel completely.

    The big school concept under Morrison was very interesting, but after him a laundry list of writers butchered the concept to death, necessitating a hard reset. The idea of worrying about what might happen five years down the road while we're in the midst of global institutional and societal upheaval is nonsensical escapism at it's zenith. If you enjoy this Hickman Era now, great, but why fuss about what might could happen later?
    Let the flames destroy all but that which is pure and true!

  5. #35
    Astonishing Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    We'll certainly see some elements, if only to differentiate from the Fox movies- it would make more sense for the X-men to live in Krakoa rather than the mansion, for example. It would also explain why we didn't see any of them before. We're not going to get all of them because there's simply no room in a movie, even a trilogy, for all that.

    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    While my list of criticism of Hickman's run is quite large, if I had to narrow it down to what has almost broken me it is the resurrections and whatever is going on with Jean/Scott/Logan/(Emma). With the former I can almost put it out of my mind by ignoring the exact details Hickman uses otherwise my critical side is too bothered with the idea of caring about clones with implanted memories. The latter is probably the biggest reason, even though it seems like the smallest. The Jean/Scott relationship is too crucial to what the X-Men are to me, what stories have lasted with me all these years.

    Otherwise I could suffer with whatever else he wants to do and just whine about it like I have been doing since Decimation.
    Yeah, but here's thing:

    a- Scott and Jean were not a couple for 15 years before House of X, were not a happy couple for nearly 20, were not a couple appearing regularly together in the X-books for even longer than that. In fact, there's almost certainly more X-men stories with Scott and Jean not as a couple than the other way around.

    b- Every single superhero has died. Period. Whether it was Infinity Gauntlet, Secret Wars or something else, if you're going by that narrow definition (only people in their original bodies are really they), you should just quit reading altogether. Hell, there's no single cell in your body that was there 15 years ago, so by some narrower definitions you're not you anymore.

  6. #36
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    We'll certainly see some elements, if only to differentiate from the Fox movies- it would make more sense for the X-men to live in Krakoa rather than the mansion, for example. It would also explain why we didn't see any of them before. We're not going to get all of them because there's simply no room in a movie, even a trilogy, for all that.



    Yeah, but here's thing:

    a- Scott and Jean were not a couple for 15 years before House of X, were not a happy couple for nearly 20, were not a couple appearing regularly together in the X-books for even longer than that. In fact, there's almost certainly more X-men stories with Scott and Jean not as a couple than the other way around.

    b- Every single superhero has died. Period. Whether it was Infinity Gauntlet, Secret Wars or something else, if you're going by that narrow definition (only people in their original bodies are really they), you should just quit reading altogether. Hell, there's no single cell in your body that was there 15 years ago, so by some narrower definitions you're not you anymore.
    I was not trying to convince anyone of my opinion I just obliged a request because two people were curious. Sometimes people just want to get a feel for what others think, not everything has to like the same things or like every part of something.

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    I was not trying to convince anyone of my opinion I just obliged a request because two people were curious. Sometimes people just want to get a feel for what others think, not everything has to like the same things or like every part of something.
    Fair enough, I am not trying to force to like anything.

  8. #38
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    This.

    I loved his work on Avengers/New Avengers and its culmination with Secret Wars, but it was kind of lame that reality was obliterated and put back pretty much the exact same way it was before. I mean, I get that the nature of these comics is that nothing can ever really change, but come on.
    You just have to hope whoever comes in next likes the same things about Hickman's run that you did.

    As for the MCU, the more I think about it, I don't even know if that is something that will have any impact for a long time. Movies already in the can are being pushed back, that industry is going to be taking a harder hit than comics, and when it does start to come back there might be more hesitation to churn out blockbusters as quickly so it may be quite some time before we see anything X-Men on the big screen.

  9. #39
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    There's totally room for a school back in Westchester while krakoa continues. After whatever epic tragic event ends Hickman's run, some mutants continue and salvage the krakoa nation, and others go back and start a school. Probably the ones the MCU will use for synergy.

  10. #40
    Mighty Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    It makes zero sense to start with them all hiding on Krakoa in the movies. It would baffle audiences as to why they are on a weird Avatar-like magic island when we've never seen them even remotely hinted at existing, let alone facing the kind of discrimination to justify hiding on Krakoa. Again, it would be a repeat of the story of the Black Panther movie, but with the opposite moral.

    The love cube is more of an annoyance to me, because its being used to make cheap gay jokes and innuendo. They absolutely won't commit to it or treat a polyamorous relationship seriously. If it had actually developed on screen instead of just plopping in front of us with 'teehee, they're fucking!' winks I would potentially be OK with it.

    I'm with you on the clone thing. Sucks all tension out of every action beat, and its hard to care about any of these characters when they've become inherently disposable and replacable. They simply aren't the people we cared about, for me at least. Its being used to tell the same tired sci-fi tropes that clones always are used for, even in stories Marvel has told before!

    The thing that turned me off the whole thing was the cynicism behind it all, coupled with going in HARD on the eugenics angle that's plagued the X-men since E for Extinction. Its always made me deeply uncomfortable, but I could still enjoy some solo stories because characters had their own things going on. Now its all Krakoa, all the time, and most characters have felt like their individual traits have been filed off to fit with the new status quo.

  11. #41
    Smart & Swift & Violent Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    We already know what the comics will look like when the MCU X-Men drops. We will get a mostly nostalgic repeat of the Jim Lee aesthetic with super-classic characterization. Look at the Disney Plus icons.

    Like...get used to it. It's a forgone conclusion.
    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    And what parts specifically are the things where the X-Men can't go back? What roots have they grown past?
    Going back to being a simply a school for mutants, Going back to just Xavier and Cyclops being completely in charge(this run has a little of that problem to be real), Trying to win humans trust by being superheroes, etc. But simply the X-men has too many good characters to go back to scope of school which is too small for the X-men concept now.

    Plus the X-men can't be "superheroes" in this universe, X-men are freedom fighters/rebels against the system that hates and fear them now. The X-men that people want will never work again because writers don't know how ease up on the misery porn. The X-men can't go back "Xavier's Dream" when it is shown that humans will always try to wipe them out. Minorities will always prioritize their self preservation over unity. It is just bad story telling hey our people dying but lets run around trying to make humans respect us by doing things "the right way."
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 09-24-2020 at 11:02 PM.

  13. #43
    Incredible Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    Krakoa will definitely end with Hickman. Nothing lasts forever, so enjoy it while it lasts. It's much better to have a shorter story that ends on a high note rather than a long one inevitably devolving into trash.

  14. #44
    Fantastic Member Castle's Avatar
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    Hickman is getting a lot of praise but he was not the first to do what he did. he is a writer who once again recreated and rejuvenated what makes X-Men more believable in a universe that also has F4 and Avengers.

    Hickman's story will only work in the MCU if X-Men functions more like the Wizarding World from harry potter, a world within a world , where there are some links to both worlds but the two worlds are still independent from the other.

    Spiderman is as much as a solo self contained hero in the comics and MCU took the opposite approach with that concept. MCU works by mass manufactured formula not by personal driven artistic motivation like what Hickman is doing with X-Men. I doubt his approach will apply in the MCU

    I think X-Men is going to be the twin sister of whatever is happening at Wakanda, very much like MCU Spiderman has not been able to escape all that Iron Man left over nonsense.

    Hickman seems very beautifully jealous in keeping xmen as its own universe, that is the point of creating Krakoa. The next mutant paradise island. MCU lives and survives by all their characters teaming up and getting together.

  15. #45
    Fantastic Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psy-lock View Post
    Krakoa will definitely end with Hickman. Nothing lasts forever, so enjoy it while it lasts. It's much better to have a shorter story that ends on a high note rather than a long one inevitably devolving into trash.
    Yes, this is the best idea. We would not want another Joss Whedon Astonishing X-Men situation. While Hickman's concept is not new but brilliant. his concept is way too intellectual and complex for the MCU.

    How many non mutants or non xmen character have had a major influence with Krakoa? An MCU movie inspired from Hickman with black panther, Thor or GOTG getting pushed in unnecessarily sounds like some Disney financial plan fan fiction.

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