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  1. #46

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    Storm is my hero because all the layers of her history, her evolution under Claremont and her indomintable will. She inspires me.

    The Allegory largely white cis whatev characters is a two-edged sword: on one side, the allegory is MORE Powerful precisely because these men/women *would* be considered privledged under any other circumstance. It’s highlights the absurdity no prejudice. On another, I see how others would feel alienated.

    And count me in with those who felt the legacy virus was an insult to aids and for all the clamor of lgbtq inclusion, in most cases I cringe. Comics, x-men and Claremont specifically taught me to see the aesthetics and relate to people not like me at all, and why I have conflicted feelings about “representation.”

    Just because someone is gay does not mean I’ll relate to them or Stan them. We’re more than our labels, and it’s actually why I believe in representation in media - the more diversity reflected, the less we’ll focus on it and instead see the character, and the story. But you need step 1 to get to step 2. I cringe at the presumption you can only relate to someone who checks off all your personal boxes. I’ll never understand that mentality.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by MythicalChicken View Post
    Storm is my hero because all the layers of her history, her evolution under Claremont and her indomintable will. She inspires me.

    The Allegory largely white cis whatev characters is a two-edged sword: on one side, the allegory is MORE Powerful precisely because these men/women *would* be considered privledged under any other circumstance. It’s highlights the absurdity no prejudice. On another, I see how others would feel alienated.

    And count me in with those who felt the legacy virus was an insult to aids and for all the clamor of lgbtq inclusion, in most cases I cringe. Comics, x-men and Claremont specifically taught me to see the aesthetics and relate to people not like me at all, and why I have conflicted feelings about “representation.”

    Just because someone is gay does not mean I’ll relate to them or Stan them. We’re more than our labels, and it’s actually why I believe in representation in media - the more diversity reflected, the less we’ll focus on it and instead see the character, and the story. But you need step 1 to get to step 2. I cringe at the presumption you can only relate to someone who checks off all your personal boxes. I’ll never understand that mentality.
    The trope of “fantastic racism” is inherently racist and will always create conflicts within the narrative and the fan base because the more you think about specific characters the more it breaks down. I think Angel is a great example of this. The son of millionaire who suddenly grows giant white wings that let him fly. His father would be on the 700 club telling people how god turned his son into an angel and if anyone had the gall to say it was from some “genetic disorder” he just say they are jealous. In the comic his father was so ashamed of angels wings he tried to have them cut off. It’s just not honest to the reality of the X-men which would be in 2020 nobody would even agree that all there powers actually came from being mutants

  3. #48
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantor View Post
    The trope of “fantastic racism” is inherently racist and will always create conflicts within the narrative and the fan base because the more you think about specific characters the more it breaks down. I think Angel is a great example of this. The son of millionaire who suddenly grows giant white wings that let him fly. His father would be on the 700 club telling people how god turned his son into an angel and if anyone had the gall to say it was from some “genetic disorder” he just say they are jealous. In the comic his father was so ashamed of angels wings he tried to have them cut off. It’s just not honest to the reality of the X-men which would be in 2020 nobody would even agree that all there powers actually came from being mutants
    You hit on big reason X-men doesn't work as well in Marvel anymore, They are group of accepted and liked characters with powers other than mutants. Yes even with humans being afraid inherently dangerous mutant powers making sense to be afraid in that situation, how do humans tell difference between Human Torch, Inferno and Sunfire. The answer is they can't and you best believe that humanity is stupid in that aspect we have real life to back that up I have seen people scream "no sharia law" at Sikhs who clearly aren't Muslim.

    Marvel extreme racism doesn't hold up if the Avengers and other powered individuals aren't receiving some of the treatment that mutants are getting this is made even worse by the fact that power humans aka the Hulk other have screwed up in manner where humans shouldn't be comfortable with superhumans. Marvel has the Stamford incident and the passed Kamala law because teen heroes screw up with their powers. It is a huge stretch that humans would be trusting of people with powers to begin with and since you can't look tell who is human everyone with superpowers would be treated like mutants. And I will simple share that Barak Obama had birth certificate as proof and people still taught he wasn't American, Human Torch saying he is not mutant and even producing evidence wouldn't be able to stop the paranoid nuts that would call everyone with superpowers mutants.

    But back on topic the X-men works good as analogy because a white man can relate to Cyclops being oppressed, While the in your face example of racism isn't going to work for him. You putting an example with BLM and it is totally lost on him but hey those X-men being oppressed by the system doesn't have the same baggage. Analogy and Metaphors are used at times because everyone isn't ready to accept certain things. You have better chance telling transgender experience with Mystique or say Wolfsbane and having someone with close mind understand it at later date when someone explains that this was stand in than straight up telling a transgender story. X-men is still a good tool for telling stories on racism because sometimes these things is better as trojan horse.

  4. #49
    Extraordinary Member Cyke's Avatar
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    Krakoa really reminds me of West Africa, more specifically Liberia, established for emancipated American slaves and thus similar reasons for Krakoa, and Sierra Leone, Liberia's neighbor and splitting off from the UK again for the same reasons. The establishment of Liberia back in the 19th century was supposed to be seen as something similar to OP's thoughts -- by giving slaves a country, there would be an end to oppression, racism, and discrimination, with the West would be giving them what they wanted. The US and UK would help these countries out, like the US assisting in the building of Liberia's infrastructure in the mid 20th century, but in the 90s, both countries suffered their own civil wars, after years of build up stemming from Western influence and the price of diamonds. The US as a whole handled that violence in... less than great ways; not only were markets and supply side manipulated by western business interests, but Western military intervention was also weak and delayed compared to Kosovo.

    But the way Krakoa and Dawn of X are written, I really feel like the Council is looking back at West African history as a warning with all the precedents but all the precautions -- the flowers are somewhat analogous to diamonds, obviously there are different factions starting to bubble that would split apart the nation (Apocalypse, Sinister, and we still have Moira to contend with), the humans are the West tepidly respecting the idea of mutant rights and autonomy but really wanting the financial power behind the nation of Krakoa, and all the violence that comes from it.

    So in the real world, I really do think this can still be a metaphor for discrimination, but now we're not just talking about interpersonal, individual discrimination (like racial or sexual minorities) as usual, but the real effects of institutionalized, systemic forces of oppression on a vast, well-funded, international scale against a mutant (as-Black) nation. The summit between the human delegates and Charles, Magneto, and Apocalypse made that comparison on the nose. And the massive wave of George Floyd/Breonna Taylor protests and their aftermath also indicate that even if BLM got each and every one of their demands met, those systems of discrimination and oppression *will* reassert themselves if it doesn't mean changing the minds of policy and lawmakers -- i.e. the vast majority of major US cities that committed to either reforming or partially defunding the police still haven't instituted a single policy change since May. So the other nations of Earth agreeing to Krakoa's own demands is meaningless if Krakoa keeps getting attacked anyway for the central fact that they're still mutants.
    Last edited by Cyke; 09-28-2020 at 12:43 AM.

  5. #50
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    huh? it's like on the fringes on everything they do.
    It depends on what time of the history’s X-men you consider but this “mutant persecution” is for me a plot-device more or less present. The X-men were far from being poor victims of prejudices harassed for being what they are, most of the time. They hardly spent their time complaining, they had adventures…

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    You hit on big reason X-men doesn't work as well in Marvel anymore, They are group of accepted and liked characters with powers other than mutants. Yes even with humans being afraid inherently dangerous mutant powers making sense to be afraid in that situation, how do humans tell difference between Human Torch, Inferno and Sunfire. The answer is they can't and you best believe that humanity is stupid in that aspect we have real life to back that up I have seen people scream "no sharia law" at Sikhs who clearly aren't Muslim.

    Marvel extreme racism doesn't hold up if the Avengers and other powered individuals aren't receiving some of the treatment that mutants are getting this is made even worse by the fact that power humans aka the Hulk other have screwed up in manner where humans shouldn't be comfortable with superhumans. Marvel has the Stamford incident and the passed Kamala law because teen heroes screw up with their powers. It is a huge stretch that humans would be trusting of people with powers to begin with and since you can't look tell who is human everyone with superpowers would be treated like mutants. And I will simple share that Barak Obama had birth certificate as proof and people still taught he wasn't American, Human Torch saying he is not mutant and even producing evidence wouldn't be able to stop the paranoid nuts that would call everyone with superpowers mutants.

    But back on topic the X-men works good as analogy because a white man can relate to Cyclops being oppressed, While the in your face example of racism isn't going to work for him. You putting an example with BLM and it is totally lost on him but hey those X-men being oppressed by the system doesn't have the same baggage. Analogy and Metaphors are used at times because everyone isn't ready to accept certain things. You have better chance telling transgender experience with Mystique or say Wolfsbane and having someone with close mind understand it at later date when someone explains that this was stand in than straight up telling a transgender story. X-men is still a good tool for telling stories on racism because sometimes these things is better as trojan horse.
    Yeah but if you need to express the struggle BLM by having a literal white analog, your story is inherently broken. BLM is about “black lives matter” you can’t just have a white guy with an allergy to sun(which is FACT what is wrong with cyclops! 24hrs in the dark he has no laser eyes!) and say that is about black lives. It means you don’t want to really talk about BLM Just pretend to. It’s why wolverine talks about the struggle of minorities but bishop never does. Marvel knows who is buying their books and it’s kinda sad

  7. #52
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantor View Post
    Yeah but if you need to express the struggle BLM by having a literal white analog, your story is inherently broken. BLM is about “black lives matter” you can’t just have a white guy with an allergy to sun(which is FACT what is wrong with cyclops! 24hrs in the dark he has no laser eyes!) and say that is about black lives. It means you don’t want to really talk about BLM Just pretend to. It’s why wolverine talks about the struggle of minorities but bishop never does. Marvel knows who is buying their books and it’s kinda sad
    I don't see as that the writers just have to be smarter in that case, Obviously the best solution is straight up having the minority represented to tell a story about the thing that is being talking about. If you are talking struggles of black people or say Mexican people just use the characters you have and straight up tell the story with them. But like I said sometimes you might want to be more discreet or subtle with your message it isn't that you don't want to talk about it but some people make up their minds on somethings and say it straight forward would just turn them off from topic.

    Some of the funniest arguments I have been on the internet is people who say stuff like "Watchmen is too political" or someone calling the X-men "Social Justice Warriors" as insult like they aren't literally social justice warriors. The best thing about using analogy/metaphors is that when well done anyone can pick up the book and not be offended but you can clear as day see the message it was trying to tell unless you are dumb as rocks. Which happens on occasion and it is mind blowing when you come across a racist or homophobic X-men fan. Uhmm you do realize what this book is about.

    Anyways I agree they should be more direct today but being discreet has it place but that said rolling out someone like Angel or Havok to be voice of minority when you have Marrow, Nightcrawler, Stacy X,etc whose existence in the X-world is similar to actually minority is understanding the material that is what I mean when I say the writers have to be smarter.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 09-28-2020 at 04:39 AM.

  8. #53
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyke View Post
    Krakoa really reminds me of West Africa, more specifically Liberia, established for emancipated American slaves and thus similar reasons for Krakoa, and Sierra Leone, Liberia's neighbor and splitting off from the UK again for the same reasons. The establishment of Liberia back in the 19th century was supposed to be seen as something similar to OP's thoughts -- by giving slaves a country, there would be an end to oppression, racism, and discrimination, with the West would be giving them what they wanted. The US and UK would help these countries out, like the US assisting in the building of Liberia's infrastructure in the mid 20th century, but in the 90s, both countries suffered their own civil wars, after years of build up stemming from Western influence and the price of diamonds. The US as a whole handled that violence in... less than great ways; not only were markets and supply side manipulated by western business interests, but Western military intervention was also weak and delayed compared to Kosovo.

    But the way Krakoa and Dawn of X are written, I really feel like the Council is looking back at West African history as a warning with all the precedents but all the precautions -- the flowers are somewhat analogous to diamonds, obviously there are different factions starting to bubble that would split apart the nation (Apocalypse, Sinister, and we still have Moira to contend with), the humans are the West tepidly respecting the idea of mutant rights and autonomy but really wanting the financial power behind the nation of Krakoa, and all the violence that comes from it.

    So in the real world, I really do think this can still be a metaphor for discrimination, but now we're not just talking about interpersonal, individual discrimination (like racial or sexual minorities) as usual, but the real effects of institutionalized, systemic forces of oppression on a vast, well-funded, international scale against a mutant (as-Black) nation. The summit between the human delegates and Charles, Magneto, and Apocalypse made that comparison on the nose. And the massive wave of George Floyd/Breonna Taylor protests and their aftermath also indicate that even if BLM got each and every one of their demands met, those systems of discrimination and oppression *will* reassert themselves if it doesn't mean changing the minds of policy and lawmakers -- i.e. the vast majority of major US cities that committed to either reforming or partially defunding the police still haven't instituted a single policy change since May. So the other nations of Earth agreeing to Krakoa's own demands is meaningless if Krakoa keeps getting attacked anyway for the central fact that they're still mutants.
    Very nice post Dude
    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantor View Post
    Yeah but if you need to express the struggle BLM by having a literal white analog, your story is inherently broken. BLM is about “black lives matter” you can’t just have a white guy with an allergy to sun(which is FACT what is wrong with cyclops! 24hrs in the dark he has no laser eyes!) and say that is about black lives. It means you don’t want to really talk about BLM Just pretend to. It’s why wolverine talks about the struggle of minorities but bishop never does. Marvel knows who is buying their books and it’s kinda sad
    lol Dude NO ONE but You are tryna make that 1:1 comparison Just because they don't fit. perfectly in the. BLM examples doesn't mean the X-men crumble as a metaphor for anything else lol
    GrindrStone(D)

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Very nice post Dude


    lol Dude NO ONE but You are tryna make that 1:1 comparison Just because they don't fit. perfectly in the. BLM examples doesn't mean the X-men crumble as a metaphor for anything else lol
    Have you ever thought maybe they should be a 1:1 metaphor? That the X-men should be a cast of ONLY minorities lgtbq and other characters so that when they say the world fears and hates them it’s a 100% accurate statement? Or this that to “woke” for you and you won’t like the books anyone unless there are pretty white people as the leads?

  10. #55
    Incredible Member Lapsus's Avatar
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    I have discussed this a lot in this forum, for me the problems always comes down to the baggage the mutants have, baggage that real-life minorities dont have.

    The mutant concept would never be realistically solved without the X-Men eventually compromise their ideology and accepting that there has to be a form of control for them. The second problem is what Killerbee911 said, other superpeople would have to face the same form of control. The large Marvel Universe didnt follow the mutant narrative and has never try to establish cohesion between different series.

    I understand why they did that, they want to give writers a lot of freedom and not be dragged by other books themes, at the same time too much freedom has leads to problems and unnecessary retcons. I think the universe and the global narrative would benefit with some common structures in the setting.
    Last edited by Lapsus; 09-28-2020 at 05:41 AM.

  11. #56
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    Most of the time the minority metaphor just seems like a thing fans and writer like to bring of to make x-men seem more culturally relevant and important than it actually is. I think for a lot of people even minorities it's mainly about the cool powers and drama.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    Wasn't there a direct parallel of someone calling Kitty a mutie and her calling them the n-word?
    Like someone said that came with Chris Claremont
    OP characters make me itch

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    Emma Frost is the survivor of a holocaust that killed 16 million people. She's able to understand and complain about racism as much as anyone.

    And honestly it's fine if she still has "privelage" because at the end of the day discrimination isn't Black and white it has layers.

    There are people from wealthy backgrounds who can still relate to discrimination because they are from an immigrant background or their family gained generational wealth over time. Privelage/elite people exist in all minorities.

    So I'm fine with characters like Emma Frost who show this side of discrimination so that people don't get the idea that's it's all just struggle.
    OP characters make me itch

  14. #59
    Incredible Member Lapsus's Avatar
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    About the Kitty and the n-word.

    You can actually use the n-word or any other real-life racist slur but with context, nobody would be surprised if Red Skull or any other racist villain will use it, because their ideas are never presented as good or valid in the story, eventually it doesnt matter, at the end they are defeated or their ideology is proven wrong ocasionally by the same thing they hate.

    The context in the Kitty scenario give her the reason to insult back with another slur, the problem of course is that you are empowering a fake minority at the cost of a real one.

    But as someone said, if one of those products of their time, in the present no writer would be so tone deaf to make the x-men calling out real-life minorities for not protecting the mutants.

    Is always fake minority vs fake minority, like Logan with Jean and the Hulks or between the mutants themselves.

  15. #60
    Astonishing Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantor View Post
    Have you ever thought maybe they should be a 1:1 metaphor? That the X-men should be a cast of ONLY minorities lgtbq and other characters so that when they say the world fears and hates them it’s a 100% accurate statement? Or this that to “woke” for you and you won’t like the books anyone unless there are pretty white people as the leads?
    The X-Men should not be a 1:1 metaphor for this, or anything; to force them into that paradigm alone would minimize them.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

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