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  1. #316
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    "Sworn to protect a world that Fears and Hates them" is really all that speaks to the discrimination trope of the X-Men and is pretty general by today's sensibilities.

    It's left up to the (many and varied) writers to interpret that tag-line as they see fit. Some have embraced it. Some have briefly touched on it. Most have ignored it. The editors and writers aren't obligated to write ONLY discrimination stories simply because mutants are seen/treated as the minority in the MU.
    Throughout its published history...most of the major events and story arcs (with the obvious exception of Extinction Agenda) have not been directly based on or written about minority discrimination.

    While that tag-line is important to the X-Men franchise in an historical sense...it's no longer the be-all/end-all of the X-men MO. (One can argue that it The X-Men has outgrown it...or at the very least moved beyond it).
    Hmm, reminds me of that basketball coach remarking on the Black Lives Matter protests this past summer, albeit paraphrased: "It's amazing, that we keep loving this country . . . and this country doesn't love us back." Reframe that for the X-Men as, "We love this world . . . we would literally give our lives for this world . . . and yet, this world has never loved us back." While it is definitely not a one-to-one parallel, there are some similarities in how the X-Men and other mutants affiliated with them have risked and sacrificed their lives for a better world in which they and nonmutant humanity can coexist as equals and partners and how historically, black people have fought, bled, killed, and even died for America, in the hope that America would come to recognize, respect, and love them as equal citizens and human beings, yet both have been repeatedly met with violent, virulent ingratitude from the country (and world) whose love, acceptance, and respect they've sought for so long.
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  2. #317
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Hmm, reminds me of that basketball coach remarking on the Black Lives Matter protests this past summer, albeit paraphrased: "It's amazing, that we keep loving this country . . . and this country doesn't love us back." Reframe that for the X-Men as, "We love this world . . . we would literally give our lives for this world . . . and yet, this world has never loved us back." While it is definitely not a one-to-one parallel, there are some similarities in how the X-Men and other mutants affiliated with them have risked and sacrificed their lives for a better world in which they and nonmutant humanity can coexist as equals and partners and how historically, black people have fought, bled, killed, and even died for America, in the hope that America would come to recognize, respect, and love them as equal citizens and human beings, yet both have been repeatedly met with violent, virulent ingratitude from the country (and world) whose love, acceptance, and respect they've sought for so long.
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  3. #318
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Hmm, reminds me of that basketball coach remarking on the Black Lives Matter protests this past summer, albeit paraphrased: "It's amazing, that we keep loving this country . . . and this country doesn't love us back." Reframe that for the X-Men as, "We love this world . . . we would literally give our lives for this world . . . and yet, this world has never loved us back." While it is definitely not a one-to-one parallel, there are some similarities in how the X-Men and other mutants affiliated with them have risked and sacrificed their lives for a better world in which they and nonmutant humanity can coexist as equals and partners and how historically, black people have fought, bled, killed, and even died for America, in the hope that America would come to recognize, respect, and love them as equal citizens and human beings, yet both have been repeatedly met with violent, virulent ingratitude from the country (and world) whose love, acceptance, and respect they've sought for so long.
    Exactatiously.

    ...the metaphor is still very much relevant...probably even more so today than in decades past.

    Even so...the Metaphor is not the "raison d'etre" of the X-Men franchise. It's an important part yes, but it's not the only part.

    How many X-Men fans read the X-Books because they address discrimination?
    How many X-Men fans will continue to read the X-books if they only/mainly addressed/focused on discrimination?
    Last edited by Devaishwarya; 10-21-2020 at 06:48 PM.
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  4. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Hmm, reminds me of that basketball coach remarking on the Black Lives Matter protests this past summer, albeit paraphrased: "It's amazing, that we keep loving this country . . . and this country doesn't love us back." Reframe that for the X-Men as, "We love this world . . . we would literally give our lives for this world . . . and yet, this world has never loved us back." While it is definitely not a one-to-one parallel, there are some similarities in how the X-Men and other mutants affiliated with them have risked and sacrificed their lives for a better world in which they and nonmutant humanity can coexist as equals and partners and how historically, black people have fought, bled, killed, and even died for America, in the hope that America would come to recognize, respect, and love them as equal citizens and human beings, yet both have been repeatedly met with violent, virulent ingratitude from the country (and world) whose love, acceptance, and respect they've sought for so long.
    This fails to address the mutants with incredible physical power to shape the world around them, as well as the numerous mutants who engage in genocide and who are far more dangerous than the Purifiers ever were. Who routinely tried to murder, torture and manipulate the X-men to dominate the world, other it to be a tyrants or remorseless serial killers. This is partially why the metaphor breaks down. Black Lives Matter isn't about standing for people who committee genocide (Apocalypse), serial killers (Proteus) or evil psychopaths (Gorgon) who happen to be minorities. For the longest time various mutant who fought the X-men never were about peaceful co-existence they defined themselves by violence and throwing other mutants under the bus for power, like the Hellfire Club.

  5. #320
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    Here is a question I have been thinking about. Why do the Xmen need to represent discrimination at this point? As has been pointed out there are POC featured in other comics, there are gay characters. So why does the Xmen need to be a metaphor for anything at this point? I can see back int he day when you couldnt feature POC or gay characters heavy. but now you can. Wouldnt it be better for these topics to be approached in those books rather then trying to force a metaphor down someone's throat when it may not apply anymore?

    You guys have all done a great job in this thread so I am hoping for a good answer on this.
    If the interpretation is racial discrimination, as others have pointed out, there are books that can and have directly addressed those themes. No metaphor required. So yes, I think it would behoove the writers to let this one rest a while with the X-Men.

    Discrimination of other kinds (sex, age, able, or even personal or cultural beliefs) can still serve a metaphorical purpose with the X-Men that books which deal with one direct type of discrimination can't (or would struggle to) address.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  6. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    This fails to address the mutants with incredible physical power to shape the world around them, as well as the numerous mutants who engage in genocide and who are far more dangerous than the Purifiers ever were. Who routinely tried to murder, torture and manipulate the X-men to dominate the world, other it to be a tyrants or remorseless serial killers. This is partially why the metaphor breaks down. Black Lives Matter isn't about standing for people who committee genocide (Apocalypse), serial killers (Proteus) or evil psychopaths (Gorgon) who happen to be minorities. For the longest time various mutant who fought the X-men never were about peaceful co-existence they defined themselves by violence and throwing other mutants under the bus for power, like the Hellfire Club.
    That's a good point as well, and something that has been addressed in real life on occasion --- what about those who instead of seeking a unified path to a better future for all, choose to pursue their own gratification and reward at everyone else's expense, including the expense of those who'd otherwise be willing to fight for them? Maybe not as extreme as the likes of the Hellfire Club or other mutant villains, but there are plenty of "sellouts" who'd gladly throw everyone else within the same persecuted or marginalized group under the proverbial bus for their own benefit.
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  7. #322
    BANNED Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Hmm, reminds me of that basketball coach remarking on the Black Lives Matter protests this past summer, albeit paraphrased: "It's amazing, that we keep loving this country . . . and this country doesn't love us back." Reframe that for the X-Men as, "We love this world . . . we would literally give our lives for this world . . . and yet, this world has never loved us back." While it is definitely not a one-to-one parallel, there are some similarities in how the X-Men and other mutants affiliated with them have risked and sacrificed their lives for a better world in which they and nonmutant humanity can coexist as equals and partners and how historically, black people have fought, bled, killed, and even died for America, in the hope that America would come to recognize, respect, and love them as equal citizens and human beings, yet both have been repeatedly met with violent, virulent ingratitude from the country (and world) whose love, acceptance, and respect they've sought for so long.
    Great Post , I have to highlight again

  8. #323
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    That's a good point as well, and something that has been addressed in real life on occasion --- what about those who instead of seeking a unified path to a better future for all, choose to pursue their own gratification and reward at everyone else's expense, including the expense of those who'd otherwise be willing to fight for them? Maybe not as extreme as the likes of the Hellfire Club or other mutant villains, but there are plenty of "sellouts" who'd gladly throw everyone else within the same persecuted or marginalized group under the proverbial bus for their own benefit.
    Like a mutant Candace Owens
    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    If the interpretation is racial discrimination, as others have pointed out, there are books that can and have directly addressed those themes. No metaphor required. So yes, I think it would behoove the writers to let this one rest a while with the X-Men.
    Im guessing your talking about titles like Black Panther....or characters like The Falcon...Luke Cage etc. But how many of their stories deal with discrimination? I doubt its the bulk of them. While Yes they have have a poignant 'after school special' issue where they tackle discrimination but then its right back to the fighting the Wrecking Crew, or governing their kingdom etc. One thing about the X-Men: Being marginalized/discriminated against largely forms their every action, its not supposed to be all 'in your face!' then a 'quick fix'. For the most part the XMen didn't voluntarily put on tights to fight crime. They're just regular folks drafted into a war protecting a world that hates and fears them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Discrimination of other kinds (sex, age, able, or even personal or cultural beliefs) can still serve a metaphorical purpose with the X-Men that books which deal with one direct type of discrimination can't (or would struggle to) address.
    Whos to say which of those aren't addressed enough in other less metaphorical books??

    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor;5199182[B
    ]This fails to address the mutants with incredible physical power to shape the world around them[/B], as well as the numerous mutants who engage in genocide and who are far more dangerous than the Purifiers ever were. Who routinely tried to murder, torture and manipulate the X-men to dominate the world, other it to be a tyrants or remorseless serial killers. This is partially why the metaphor breaks down. Black Lives Matter isn't about standing for people who committee genocide (Apocalypse), serial killers (Proteus) or evil psychopaths (Gorgon) who happen to be minorities. For the longest time various mutant who fought the X-men never were about peaceful co-existence they defined themselves by violence and throwing other mutants under the bus for power, like the Hellfire Club.
    Well now with KraKoa those mutants aren't nearly a big of threat as they once were
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  9. #324
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Im guessing your talking about titles like Black Panther....or characters like The Falcon...Luke Cage etc. But how many of their stories deal with discrimination? I doubt its the bulk of them. While Yes they have have a poignant 'after school special' issue where they tackle discrimination but then its right back to the fighting the Wrecking Crew, or governing their kingdom etc. One thing about the X-Men: Being marginalized/discriminated against largely forms their every action, its not supposed to be all 'in your face!' then a 'quick fix'. For the most part the XMen didn't voluntarily put on tights to fight crime. They're just regular folks drafted into a war protecting a world that hates and fears them.
    Having an after school special type take would simply mean the writers are being lazy - those books, in regards to the topic, are better equipped in some cases to deal with themes of racial discrimination. As others have said, while a white mutant faces discrimination, it is clearly different from the discrimination that a black superhero faces. At best, trying to tell a story about racial discrimination using a white mutant would be awkward, don't you think?

    Otherwise, I agree with your assessment here.

    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Whos to say which of those aren't addressed enough in other less metaphorical books??
    But all at once or any combination therein with a franchise that you yourself said is largely formed by their being discriminated against or marginalized? I think we agree generally, just that I think the racial angle should take a backseat for a while in lieu of the other interpretations.

    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Well now with KraKoa those mutants aren't nearly a big of threat as they once were
    I wonder about that, because all of those radical mutants still have most of their continuity intact right? The world should definitely be up in arms about this.

    Also, it just occurred to me, but what must the average person in the MU think about the times when their entire reality is overwritten in some big crossover? Do they just not retain any memories of like Secret Wars or something?
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  10. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Like a mutant Candace Owens
    Many of which are on the Quiet Council. Emma Frost was the mutant Candace Owens when she was introduced, she's just more inclined to throw non-mutants under the bus these days.



    Im guessing your talking about titles like Black Panther....or characters like The Falcon...Luke Cage etc. But how many of their stories deal with discrimination? I doubt its the bulk of them.
    This is an odd response.

    While Yes they have have a poignant 'after school special' issue where they tackle discrimination but then its right back to the fighting the Wrecking Crew, or governing their kingdom etc.
    It's not like the X-men spend every second doing that, either.

    One thing about the X-Men: Being marginalized/discriminated against largely forms their every action, its not supposed to be all 'in your face!' then a 'quick fix'. For the most part the XMen didn't voluntarily put on tights to fight crime. They're just regular folks drafted into a war protecting a world that hates and fears them.
    The originals did, and so did many of the groups of X-factor's. The X-men were made to be a paramilitary force too protect humanity from bad mutants, that's why they're super-hero teams not activist groups. Most of the X-men aren't regular people even outside being mutants, even people like Marrow. They're super soldiers, not average people.

    Whos to say which of those aren't addressed enough in other less metaphorical books??
    That's not a thing in fiction.

    Well now with KraKoa those mutants aren't nearly a big of threat as they once were
    Krkaoa isn't stopping Magneto trying to conquer the world to his liking, and let's mutants like Apocalypse do whatever he likes with no supervision, including getting into wars in their name. There is some truth that krkao does hold them back, kind of, but why? It makes absolutely no sense for these characters to be boy scouts simply by shaking their hands and getting a pinky swear that they're loyal to krakoa. And they're not above exploiting those "loose cannons" for their own agenda, like with sabre tooth. Which is why many people think something is going on narratively to keep them in line. The X-men of old have gotten really lax at trusting their enemies, something they never so incredibly naive about - which is why Krkaoa is a ticking time bomb.

  11. #326
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Hmm, reminds me of that basketball coach remarking on the Black Lives Matter protests this past summer, albeit paraphrased: "It's amazing, that we keep loving this country . . . and this country doesn't love us back." Reframe that for the X-Men as, "We love this world . . . we would literally give our lives for this world . . . and yet, this world has never loved us back." While it is definitely not a one-to-one parallel, there are some similarities in how the X-Men and other mutants affiliated with them have risked and sacrificed their lives for a better world in which they and nonmutant humanity can coexist as equals and partners and how historically, black people have fought, bled, killed, and even died for America, in the hope that America would come to recognize, respect, and love them as equal citizens and human beings, yet both have been repeatedly met with violent, virulent ingratitude from the country (and world) whose love, acceptance, and respect they've sought for so long.
    The way I understood the “Sworn to protect a world that Fears and Hates them” is not that the X-men ever tried to change the world. It’s much more simpler: the X-men believed in some values and acted accordingly.

    It’s what heroes do: they don’t let the world define them. The rest of the world is good or bad, it doesn’t matter. They are a part of the world and they are free to act the way they want. As the rest of the world is free to like them or not.

    Sometimes, they had a moment of weakness, a longing for a peaceful life, but usually they were present when they were needed.
    “Strength is the lot of but a few privileged men; but austere perseverance, harsh and continuous, may be employed by the smallest of us and rarely fails of its purpose, for its silent power grows irresistibly greater with time.” Goethe

  12. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Like a mutant Candace Owens
    Im guessing your talking about titles like Black Panther....or characters like The Falcon...Luke Cage etc. But how many of their stories deal with discrimination? I doubt its the bulk of them. While Yes they have have a poignant 'after school special' issue where they tackle discrimination but then its right back to the fighting the Wrecking Crew, or governing their kingdom etc. One thing about the X-Men: Being marginalized/discriminated against largely forms their every action, its not supposed to be all 'in your face!' then a 'quick fix'. For the most part the XMen didn't voluntarily put on tights to fight crime. They're just regular folks drafted into a war protecting a world that hates and fears them.


    Whos to say which of those aren't addressed enough in other less metaphorical books??
    They're done with a hell lot more competence than the X-Men usually do. They're also more respectful to actual racial minorities than the X-Men normally are. Storm is considered the best, if not the only good, minority character of the X-franchise and even she has had some embarrassing from the X-books and racist takes from even her own fans.

  13. #328
    Astonishing Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    The way I understood the “Sworn to protect a world that Fears and Hates them” is not that the X-men ever tried to change the world. It’s much more simpler: the X-men believed in some values and acted accordingly.

    It’s what heroes do: they don’t let the world define them. The rest of the world is good or bad, it doesn’t matter. They are a part of the world and they are free to act the way they want. As the rest of the world is free to like them or not.

    Sometimes, they had a moment of weakness, a longing for a peaceful life, but usually they were present when they were needed.
    I don’t think that mentality works for the X-Men franchise as a whole. First of all, shouldn’t they be trying to change the world? Xavier wanted the world to see what “good mutants” look like, so from the beginning they were at least trying to change public perception.

    Second, the world forcibly defines them as mutants and won’t let them forget even when they’re doing general super heroics. Also, think about all the young mutants who literally just started out as students and got flung into this crazy lifestyle. You can’t even compare them to other young superheroes (like some of the Robin’s) who made the active choice to put on a costume and fight crime.

  14. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    I don’t think that mentality works for the X-Men franchise as a whole. First of all, shouldn’t they be trying to change the world? Xavier wanted the world to see what “good mutants” look like, so from the beginning they were at least trying to change public perception.
    That's what they're sort of meant to do on paper, in practice they're just a super-hero team with a niche. Their main tactic in changing the world is hitting people in the face with optic blasts. They're not activists. It's rare when they're discussing PR, and do things about it - like in Morrison's and Whedon's but they still don't do things like hire professional public relations experts they just call in popular X-men.

    Second, the world forcibly defines them as mutants and won’t let them forget even when they’re doing general super heroics. Also, think about all the young mutants who literally just started out as students and got flung into this crazy lifestyle. You can’t even compare them to other young superheroes (like some of the Robin’s) who made the active choice to put on a costume and fight crime.
    That's not their world, that's Marvel. Being oppressed super-heroes, even when they live in mansions or luxurious island paradises where everyone gets a free house, is what brings in the money. Not all students have to be X-men, that's a choice they make. This is why Cecelia Reyes was able to turn Xavier down when he offered her to join the team, she only did that after Operation: Zero Tolerance and she came to accept that as the new normal but she still could have left at any time. They're not drafted in. The X-men, as an organisation, protects mutants by doing things relocation the comics just rarely bring that up because readers want to see super-heroics, not the X-men witness protection. As interesting as that sounds.

  15. #330
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Zelena and KindomX are both right.

    It's definitely how the X-Men views the world and defines their general role in it.
    But...
    That role does not exclude their actively trying to change the world for the better through their actions and by heroic examples back in the Claremont days. (After they defeated Apocalypse in FotM, X-Factor were celebrated as mutant heroes...which didn't last but....)

    Even now...as Storm says in M13...if they don't fight the Amenthi and win the world is doomed. So they're still living up to that part of the "bargain" in spite of racist shyts like Xeno and Mater Monstra (not her real name) and the Russian Government.

    As a minority community the mutants (even rich, White powerful Emma and Xavier) are fully self aware and aware of their place in the MU just for being Mutants. It's like Oprah and other rich, influential Black people, as in Tulsa, in America...they are still regarded as N-word who should know their place and stay in their place, by some.
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