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  1. #76
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    A certain sect of the Purifiers hated super powered beings too.

    The Inhumans should have been hated more. Keep in mind that most superheroes or at least legacy superheroes got their powers by luck for pure accident or just something not achieved by the an ordinary person.

    Being a mutant or having a neighbour thats one is a higher probability. They're not a goverment weapon like Steve Rogers or in some cases worshipped because they're a God like Thor. They're the student in your class that can cheat on tests, or has an unfair advantage. And its evolutionary while you're an ordinary Joe soap are left behind.

    You feel you're obsolete that you're being replaced and an evolutionary outdated amoeba.

  2. #77
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I think the solution to "Why do humans only hate mutants and not super-powered people?" is simple: establish that there are gradients to the mutant question. Here's a sample starter list:

    1. Fanatically pro-mutant
    2. Pro-mutant
    3. Reasonably concerned about dangerous mutants (both bad actors and innocents who can't control their mutation) and willing to work with the mutant community(ies) to address it.
    4. Indifferent
    5. Mildly anti-mutant
    6. Fanatically anti-mutant

    1 and 6 would have further subdivisions.

    Some in group 5 would be fans of the Avengers but dislike the X-Men. Some in group 6 would accuse virtually every superpowered individual of being a mutant.
    The sad thing is that from most X-Men stories, it would appear that a 4 is the best you can get from humanity on average, and considering that the indifferent still end up being complicit by way of that same indifference in the injustices historically and more recently visited upon mutants . . .

    That aside, while mutants do get the worst of it from humanity at large, there have been recurrences of distrust toward the likes of the Avengers and Fantastic Four from ordinary people in-universe --- the Avengers for accepting aliens, robots, and mutants into their ranks and thus becoming targets by association of the bigotry visited upon aliens, robots, and mutants, the Fantastic Four because Reed Richards's experiments and research projects, not to mention the Four's battles with Doctor Doom and/or other supervillains, have occasionally endangered regular people within the vicinity of their headquarters. Spider-Man and the Hulk have been especially distrusted and feared, if not flat-out hated, by the public at large, with Spidey even presumed to be a mutant by some based purely on the "creepy" nature of his spider-powers and his fully concealing costume, and the Hulk for his destructive rampages and usually uncontrollable rages that cause said rampages. And yes, the events that precipitated the original Marvel Civil War did result in all superhumans being viewed with the same fear and loathing by the general public that had historically been "reserved" for mutants. All in all, I do agree that there should be shades and gradations in how people in-universe react to mutants vs. other superhumans, and I would argue that in the cases of the Avengers and Fantastic Four, what makes them more "acceptable" to the public is that the Four and many Avengers have publicly known identities and project themselves as here to "protect and serve" ordinary humans as opposed to more meaningfully challenging human authorities and their mistreatment of mutants and/or other superpowered individuals.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  3. #78
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    That's deep. Love it.
    Hope you can crawl....cause it's wet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider;5165140I would argue that in the cases of the Avengers and Fantastic Four, what makes them more "acceptable" to the public is that the Four and many Avengers have publicly known identities and project themselves as here to "protect and serve" ordinary humans as opposed to more [B
    meaningfully challenging human authorities[/B] and their mistreatment of mutants and/or other superpowered individuals.
    Huh must've missed all these anti establishment, proactive issues lol jk
    But I'm preeeeeeetty sure the X-Men never were purposefully provocative to human authorities till last few years

    Also strange why Soo many people can't wrap theirs heads around the unequal distribution of hate in the 616
    idk
    GrindrStone(D)

  4. #79
    Astonishing Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    The sad thing is that from most X-Men stories, it would appear that a 4 is the best you can get from humanity on average, and considering that the indifferent still end up being complicit by way of that same indifference in the injustices historically and more recently visited upon mutants . . .

    That aside, while mutants do get the worst of it from humanity at large, there have been recurrences of distrust toward the likes of the Avengers and Fantastic Four from ordinary people in-universe --- the Avengers for accepting aliens, robots, and mutants into their ranks and thus becoming targets by association of the bigotry visited upon aliens, robots, and mutants, the Fantastic Four because Reed Richards's experiments and research projects, not to mention the Four's battles with Doctor Doom and/or other supervillains, have occasionally endangered regular people within the vicinity of their headquarters. Spider-Man and the Hulk have been especially distrusted and feared, if not flat-out hated, by the public at large, with Spidey even presumed to be a mutant by some based purely on the "creepy" nature of his spider-powers and his fully concealing costume, and the Hulk for his destructive rampages and usually uncontrollable rages that cause said rampages. And yes, the events that precipitated the original Marvel Civil War did result in all superhumans being viewed with the same fear and loathing by the general public that had historically been "reserved" for mutants. All in all, I do agree that there should be shades and gradations in how people in-universe react to mutants vs. other superhumans, and I would argue that in the cases of the Avengers and Fantastic Four, what makes them more "acceptable" to the public is that the Four and many Avengers have publicly known identities and project themselves as here to "protect and serve" ordinary humans as opposed to more meaningfully challenging human authorities and their mistreatment of mutants and/or other superpowered individuals.
    Group 6 seems to be the predominant representation in the MU, but even that group should have subdivisions - and the inclusion of the other groups in increased numbers would make the books stronger and more well-rounded.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  5. #80
    Astonishing Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    On the topic of being proactive about mutant issues and provocative to human authorities: I find it a little funny that Cyclops and his X-Men during the Utopia Era were vilified despite the context but the X-Men during this Krakoa Era are beloved and, even with context, are clearly acting villainous.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    (...)

    Being a mutant or having a neighbour thats one is a higher probability. They're not a goverment weapon like Steve Rogers or in some cases worshipped because they're a God like Thor. They're the student in your class that can cheat on tests, or has an unfair advantage. And its evolutionary while you're an ordinary Joe soap are left behind.

    You feel you're obsolete that you're being replaced and an evolutionary outdated amoeba.
    Actualy. Judging by a great number of backround or one-use in a story mutants, a vast majority of mutants don't actualy outclass normal humans. They are just unusual. Infact there are often enough mutants for whom their powers are a hindrance or a downright curse.

    The whole "next step of evolution" thing can easily be read as an extreme hollow proclamation done by the 1%ers of the mutant population who have the impressive, dangerous and usefull powers. While most mutants only have powers that give them a tiny bonus or actualy make live more complicated.
    Not to forget that the mutants are a terrible evolutionary development, since instead of becoming more adaptive to a new environment or situation, or gaining a uniform advantage, everyone gets something entirely randomized that might be usefull, useless or harmfull.

    It's not evolution. It a lottery and most people are only getting the 5 bucks when they win.

    They are only the "next evolution" of mankind in the sense that eventualy more parts of the human population will have an X-gene than not. Not that they are automatically better than the unpowered humans.
    After all. Someone who's powers turn out to burning alive including feeling the pain of it, will certainly not feel luckier than someone who is has the "misfortune" of being born without powers.
    Likewise there could always be mutants who's powers are so weak or useless they would barely be different from the old unpowered humans.

    Infact it could even be a point of pride for the unpowered humans. They might feel like relics. But they are relics unburdened by random super powers. Also not finding themself suddently at total loss if some of the many super natural freak events that can happen in the marvel universe would rob them of their powers (which are after all only an add-on not fundamental part of the human race). Because they spend their whole live doing well without having them. Simpler form is an evolutionary advantage too after all.

    Ironicaly. A world in which the mutants became the majority might easily end up being a world where unpowered humans and weak powered mutants might actualy find a lot more common ground than either with the well powered mutants. Leading to a possible shared dislike, distrust or even hate towards the usefull or more powerfull mutants.
    Likewise the more powerfull or usefull powered mutants might easily disconnect and look down on the weak powered mutants in the same way as they do towards normal humans, once there is no longer the pressure to be united.

    The potential for such a vicious cycle is all there.

    Because Johnny who only has green skin, Dorothy who has twice as long fingers, Jake who looks like a fish but can't breath underwater and Lin who can smell the color grey, will just as much witness fellow students in class using their powers to cheat at tests or get all the goods jobs, as Raila the powerless. So they might find a lot more common ground with him than with their fellow mutants who fly across the sky or make them all act like their puppets because they want to laugh at the weak.
    Though they might kick down on Raila to feel better about themself for being weak powered. Because again a vicious cycle can happen.
    Last edited by Grunty; 09-28-2020 at 07:14 PM.

  7. #82
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Hope you can crawl....cause it's wet.
    Huh must've missed all these anti establishment, proactive issues lol jk
    But I'm preeeeeeetty sure the X-Men never were purposefully provocative to human authorities till last few years

    Also strange why Soo many people can't wrap theirs heads around the unequal distribution of hate in the 616
    idk
    Fair enough, though I would say the X-Men are "antiestablishment" to the degree that the in-universe establishment is firmly against mutant rights, let alone the very existence of mutants, so the X-Men, by proclaiming that mutants can be heroes, too, and are as deserving of having their rights respected as anyone else, are setting themselves against the human-supremacist mentality prevalent in the establishment and conventional society. I would also liken their mistreatment over the years by human authorities to how civil rights activists were all too often demonized as "subversives" to justify their brutal repression at the hands of law enforcement, which would even connect with the idea that anyone challenging systemic bias and oppression would be automatically treated as an enemy of the society that practiced and benefited from that bias and oppression. In a nutshell, the X-Men challenge the society and world they live in, while (the likes of) the Avengers and Fantastic Four merely preserve that society and world without doing much, if anything, to challenge (or change) how it treats the more vulnerable and marginalized. That, to me, is the key distinction.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  8. #83
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Again I will say that Humans can't tell Mutants and Superhumans apart.

    Person 1 "Excuse me man on fire are you a mutant or superhuman"
    Mutant "I am a mutant"
    Person 1 "Great now that I have that clear up I can hate you"

    More realistic X-men world would have the freakier looking mutants and mutant with clear always visible mutations taking brunt of the hate, And most of superhero community taking mostly the same treatment because why would a mutant say they are a mutant? And when have people believe the truth even when it is told to them? While they would be varying degrees of hate for sure the fact you can't tell the difference between Ms Marvel(Inhuman) Captian Marvel(alien), Jean Grey(mutant) and Thor(God) makes marvel overall treatment of mutants kind of stupid.

    Yes humans are easily capable of hating people who look just like them see the treatment ala Jewish and Irish people at points. So it make sense that people will irrationally pick out a group to hate without clearly being able to tell who they are but we have also seen that Sikhs and Muslims or Mexicans and any other Hispanic/Latino group. It is a pretty much a fact that the people who irrational hating aren't the type to do research it is pretty easy to understand that in Marvel one these things should be happening "regular superhumans will take more hate" or "normal looking mutants will take less hate" because you can't tell mutants and superhumans apart.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 09-28-2020 at 08:10 PM.

  9. #84
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Yeah, those fans could then connect to the outcast fans and grow closer to an understanding.
    Except I was talking about the “old” X-men… It works as long as the X-men have a moderate attitude, willing to speak with everyone, hoping for a better world while dealing with the world the way it is. They were mediators, ambassadors…

    Now, they are “embedded”…

  10. #85
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Except I was talking about the “old” X-men… It works as long as the X-men have a moderate attitude, willing to speak with everyone, hoping for a better world while dealing with the world the way it is. They were mediators, ambassadors…

    Now, they are “embedded”…
    Difference??
    GrindrStone(D)

  11. #86
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Again I will say that Humans can't tell Mutants and Superhumans apart.

    Person 1 "Excuse me man on fire are you a mutant or superhuman"
    Mutant "I am a mutant"
    Person 1 "Great now that I have that clear up I can hate you"

    More realistic X-men world would have the freakier looking mutants and mutant with clear always visible mutations taking brunt of the hate, And most of superhero community taking mostly the same treatment because why would a mutant say they are a mutant? And when have people believe the truth even when it is told to them? While they would be varying degrees of hate for sure the fact you can't tell the difference between Ms Marvel(Inhuman) Captian Marvel(alien), Jean Grey(mutant) and Thor(God) makes marvel overall treatment of mutants kind of stupid.

    Yes humans are easily capable of hating people who look just like them see the treatment ala Jewish and Irish people at points. So it make sense that people will irrationally pick out a group to hate without clearly being able to tell who they are but we have also seen that Sikhs and Muslims or Mexicans and any other Hispanic/Latino group. It is a pretty much a fact that the people who irrational hating aren't the type to do research it is pretty easy to understand that in Marvel one these things should be happening "regular superhumans will take more hate" or "normal looking mutants will take less hate" because you can't tell mutants and superhumans apart.
    I agree that the way a “human” would consider a person labeled “mutant” will be different according to his experience with any super-being like Sam, the builder, who had nothing against the mutants until he met a mutant Magneto…

  12. #87
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    because you can't tell mutants and superhumans apart.
    Mutants live on KraKoa
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    I agree that the way a “human” would consider a person labeled “mutant” will be different according to his experience with any super-being like Sam, the builder, who had nothing against the mutants until he met a mutant Magneto…
    ¿¿Uh Zhat??
    GrindrStone(D)

  13. #88
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    ¿¿Uh Zhat??
    Old stuff… one of the rare occasions when an author took his time to talk about relationships between human-mutants…

  14. #89
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Again I will say that Humans can't tell Mutants and Superhumans apart.
    Maybe there's something we're not considering. As readers we can see what's happening, and to a limited degree hear what's happening. But can we smell what's happening? Do mutants smell different or worse than other superhumans? Does Jean Grey throroughly wash her notably large feet?
    Quote Originally Posted by ???
    The world has changed, and so have I.

  15. #90
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    It is a pretty much a fact that the people who irrational hating aren't the type to do research it is pretty easy to understand that in Marvel one these things should be happening "regular superhumans will take more hate" or "normal looking mutants will take less hate" because you can't tell mutants and superhumans apart.
    I don't know how far back one has to go, but I know you could go back to the 80s and see the comics actually showed all these different ideas. The first few years of X-Factor heavily explore this. Even Spider-Man, Fantastic Four and Avengers would all get hate from time to time and sometimes the X-books would have the random bystander mention those other teams too. Back then the point of the X-Men/X-Factor was to train mutants to use their powers so they could live normal lives, so obviously a lot has changed.

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