Can the Xmen still be a metaphor for discrimination when pretty much all theirs

[Huntsman Spider]

This is an interesting point and I just want to throw this out there for consideration. Its not perfect, by any stretch and it is only going by roster not in story prominence. Also I am including "Woman" as a minority group because...
although women are not categorically a minority, the status of women as a subordinate group has led to many social scientists to study them as a minority group. Though women's legal rights and status vary widely across countries, women experience social inequalities relative to men in most societies. - Wikipedia Minority Group
For arguments sake I also bolded those who represent a minority beyond women



X-Force
Wolverine
Beast
Jean Grey - Women
Domino - Women
Colossus
Quentin
Sage - Women
Black Tom

Marauders
Kate Pryde - Women
Storm - African / LGBTQ (I think) / Women
Emma Frost - Women
Ice Man - LGBTQ
Bishop - Aboriginal Australian
Pyro

X-Factor
Northstar - LGBTQ
Daken - Japanese / LGBTQ
Eye Boy
Aurora - Women
Polaris - Women
Rachel - Women
Prodigy - African American/ LGBTQ

Excalibur
Betsy - Women / LGBTQ (w/Cluster I think this still counts)
Rogue - Women
Gambit
Jubilee - Women
Rictor - LGBTQ
Apocalypse - Egyptian

New Mutants (Almost didn't include this because the cast is huge and variable and I quit reading)
Magic - Women
Karma - Vietnamese / Women
Wolfsbane - Women
Moonstar - Native American / Women
Cypher
Chamber
Mondo - Samoan
Armor - Japanese / Women
Glob

Hellions
Mr. Sinister
Kwanon - Japanese / Women
Havoc
Empath
Grewcrow/Scalphunter - Native American
Nanny - Women
Orphan Maker
Wild Child

X-Men and Misc.
Cyclops
Cable
Gorgon - Japanese
Forge - Native American
Xavier
Magneto - Jewish
Nightcrawler
Mystique - Women / LGBTQ
Exodus
Shaw
Stepford Cuckoos (5) - Women

I hate listing this because it doesn't tell the whole story, many of these characters haven't really done much however I do think its important to note that the X-Line as a whole is doing better than many think in this regard.

True enough, which is why the issue is more about whether these characters get development and promotion on par with characters that come from the more majority demographics, i.e. white, straight, gender-conforming, and/or male, than whether or not they appear at all. The appearance of inclusion and representation is one thing, but if that appearance ultimately lacks substance and depth compared to what others get, then it does ring hollow.

[Kisinith]

True enough, which is why the issue is more about whether these characters get development and promotion on par with characters that come from the more majority demographics, i.e. white, straight, gender-conforming, and/or male, than whether or not they appear at all. The appearance of inclusion and representation is one thing, but if that appearance ultimately lacks substance and depth compared to what others get, then it does ring hollow.

I agree, as I indicated at the bottom of my post, however this is a good platform to start the discussion. If you accept women as a minority group then of the 59 listed major characters, 37 are minorities (19 if you do not).

Next if you look at the casts and who the major players in them are, then the only books not doing really well are X-Force and the solo's. I don't count X-Men one way or another as its cast is very fluid however I would note that its best issues are the ones that feature these characters (Davos w/ Xavier, Apocalypse, Magneto, Cyclops and Gorgan, and then Mystique and Destiny)
Marauders - Kate, Emma, Iceman, Storm then Bishop
Excalibur - Betsy, Apocalypse, Richtor and Jubilee
Hellions - Kwanon, Havoc and Greycrow
X-Factor - Everyone but Eye-Boy

I just think that the current comics are a lot more diverse than many of its critics give it credit for and its important to recognize that the X-Men are representative of all outsiders and minorities, not just racial minorities (which is an area that can be improved on).

[Kingdom X]

This is an interesting point and I just want to throw this out there for consideration. Its not perfect, by any stretch and it is only going by roster not in story prominence. Also I am including "Woman" as a minority group because...
although women are not categorically a minority, the status of women as a subordinate group has led to many social scientists to study them as a minority group. Though women's legal rights and status vary widely across countries, women experience social inequalities relative to men in most societies. - Wikipedia Minority Group
For arguments sake I also bolded those who represent a minority beyond women



X-Force
Wolverine
Beast
Jean Grey - Women
Domino - Women
Colossus
Quentin
Sage - Women
Black Tom

Marauders
Kate Pryde - Women
Storm - African / LGBTQ (I think) / Women
Emma Frost - Women
Ice Man - LGBTQ
Bishop - Aboriginal Australian
Pyro

X-Factor
Northstar - LGBTQ
Daken - Japanese / LGBTQ
Eye Boy
Aurora - Women
Polaris - Women
Rachel - Women
Prodigy - African American/ LGBTQ

Excalibur
Betsy - Women / LGBTQ (w/Cluster I think this still counts)
Rogue - Women
Gambit
Jubilee - Women
Rictor - LGBTQ
Apocalypse - Egyptian

New Mutants (Almost didn't include this because the cast is huge and variable and I quit reading)
Magic - Women
Karma - Vietnamese / Women
Wolfsbane - Women
Moonstar - Native American / Women
Cypher
Chamber
Mondo - Samoan
Armor - Japanese / Women
Glob

Hellions
Mr. Sinister
Kwanon - Japanese / Women
Havoc
Empath
Grewcrow/Scalphunter - Native American
Nanny - Women
Orphan Maker
Wild Child

X-Men and Misc.
Cyclops
Cable
Gorgon - Japanese
Forge - Native American
Xavier
Magneto - Jewish
Nightcrawler
Mystique - Women / LGBTQ
Exodus
Shaw
Stepford Cuckoos (5) - Women

I hate listing this because it doesn't tell the whole story, many of these characters haven't really done much however I do think its important to note that the X-Line as a whole is doing better than many think in this regard.

FYI Rictor is Latino, Jubilee is Chinese, and Storm is not confirmed LGBTQ.

Also, I think that adding women to your metrics isn’t really necessary, only because the X-Men usually isn’t lacking in female representation (I think we can thank Claremont for that lol).

If anything this list highlights some of the franchises problems. X-Factor has pretty much been the ONLY book to give its minority characters equal focus. The argument could be made for Excalibur too, but that book is a stealth Apocalypse solo so it’s more difficult to measure.

[Zelena]

I just think that the current comics are a lot more diverse than many of its critics give it credit for and its important to recognize that the X-Men are representative of all outsiders and minorities, not just racial minorities (which is an area that can be improved on).

The X-men were more than a representation of anything, there were an answer to the way the rest of the world considered them…

I liked this answer, I don’t like this answer anymore.

[Killerbee911]

I hate listing this because it doesn't tell the whole story, many of these characters haven't really done much however I do think its important to note that the X-Line as a whole is doing better than many think in this regard.

-Yes the current line is doing good in this regard, Sword has Manifold,Frenzy, Whiz Kid, Children of the Atom has 2 black kids, 1 Asian kid, I believe non binary character as well. I dread a relaunch because a return to "classic" always means less diversity. I still don't understand how accidentally X-force doesn't have one racial minority I mean technically Cecila Reyes is in the book a lot.


-And something that bares noting it should be the X-men job to carry all of comics in terms of representation. People need to hold Avengers and other books to X-men standards and it wouldn't matter as much that X-men isn't more diverse.

-Lastly you didn't list Karma as LGBTQ which is no big deal except that I have joke that Karma is walking diversity being that she is queer asian and handicap plus once was fat.

If anything this list highlights some of the franchises problems. X-Factor has pretty much been the ONLY book to give its minority characters equal focus. The argument could be made for Excalibur too, but that book is a stealth Apocalypse solo so it’s more difficult to measure.

We should notice who is writing those two books, Points out the importance of behind the scenes as well.

[Grunty]

I agree, as I indicated at the bottom of my post, however this is a good platform to start the discussion. If you accept women as a minority group then of the 59 listed major characters, 37 are minorities (19 if you do not).

Technicaly people of color (of the various ethnicities fitting that term) and asians (also various ethnicities fitting that term) are majorities in their respective countries of origin. It can be argued that in these cases it's less about representing a minority (by american standard) and more about equaly representing an fellow global majority.

Basicly if you have a team meant to be international and representative of that, leaving out ethnicities which are equal or larger in number to the white europeans becomes noticable.

Even though the X-men are an american super hero comic and created with an anglo-centric team because of that, they have developed into a fundamentaly international team (even if the designated audience is still american) and their representation of characters can be judged by international standards and not just american. Which makes people from africa, asia and south america not minorities anymore but equal majorities.

Which does mean that paying attention to an equal representation of woman on the teams is still valid. Especialy since many super hero comics had a long history of designating woman as just token representation or wallpaper.
All while woman around the world are still struggeling for equal rights, treatment and payment, even in industrial countries. But the X-men comics do have a rather good track record with female characters.

[Kingdom X]

Technicaly people of color (of the various ethnicities fitting that term) and asians (also various ethnicities fitting that term) are majorities in their respective countries of origin. It can be argued that in these cases it's less about representing a minority (by american standard) and more about equaly representing an fellow global majority.

Basicly if you have a team meant to be international and representative of that, leaving out ethnicities which are equal or larger in number to the white europeans becomes noticable.

Even though the X-men are an american super hero comic and created with an anglo-centric team because of that, they have developed into a fundamentaly international team (even if the designated audience is still american) and their representation of characters can be judged by international standards and not just american. Which makes people from africa, asia and south america not minorities anymore but equal majorities.

Which does mean that paying attention to an equal representation of woman on the teams is still valid. Especialy since many super hero comics had a long history of designating woman as just token representation or wallpaper.
All while woman around the world are still struggeling for equal rights, treatment and payment, even in industrial countries. But the X-men comics do have a rather good track record with female characters.

Oh I 100% agree that we should strive for equal gender representation on the teams, it’s just that I think this franchise in particular is actually doing pretty well in that regard. Progress can always be made, but I think the franchise is lagging behind prominently when it comes to other forms of representation.

[Castle]

How good is the writer? Stan Lee may have wanted xmen to represent discrimination but it was Claremont and CO that made it possible.

Try and list some of you top 5 best xmen comics that tackled discrimination. Days Of Future Past, The Mutant Massacre or God Loves, Man Kills, Gifted . they were written by some and if not the best xmen writers we have had.

its about good discrimination stories not just discrimination for the sake of discrimination. Also can writers now even write an objectively intellectual discrimination themed story or are they just going to go woke.

On the larger scale beyond comics, and this is me still assuming the COVID 19 nightmare will end in a year or 2 and we can all start going to cinema to watch films again, I will say in movies, which is the biggest comic exposure, the answer is NO. X-Men will likely no longer be a good metaphor for discrimination since MCU does not have that type of story telling feat.

Comics would still have lingering traces of the theme but I don't think it will ever reach the heights of the 80s and 90s stories.

[Kingdom X]

How good is the writer? Stan Lee may have wanted xmen to represent discrimination but it was Claremont and CO that made it possible.

Try and list some of you top 5 best xmen comics that tackled discrimination. Days Of Future Past, The Mutant Massacre or God Loves, Man Kills, Gifted . they were written by some and if not the best xmen writers we have had.

its about good discrimination stories not just discrimination for the sake of discrimination. Also can writers now even write an objectively intellectual discrimination themed story or are they just going to go woke.

On the larger scale beyond comics, and this is me still assuming the COVID 19 nightmare will end in a year or 2 and we can all start going to cinema to watch films again, I will say in movies, which is the biggest comic exposure, the answer is NO. X-Men will likely no longer be a good metaphor for discrimination since MCU does not have that type of story telling feat.

Comics would still have lingering traces of the theme but I don't think it will ever reach the heights of the 80s and 90s stories.

You’re right the quality of the writer does impact how they’re able to tackle the topic. I also don’t think that every X-Men story should be about discrimination. At the same time I do think the franchise should practice what it preaches by being diverse and representative.

Also I don’t see the point in worrying about what the MCU does right now. The comics are the source material and we are years away from any MCU X-Men.

[Micabe]

FYI Rictor is Latino, Jubilee is Chinese, and Storm is not confirmed LGBTQ.

Also, I think that adding women to your metrics isn’t really necessary, only because the X-Men usually isn’t lacking in female representation (I think we can thank Claremont for that lol).

If anything this list highlights some of the franchises problems. X-Factor has pretty much been the ONLY book to give its minority characters equal focus. The argument could be made for Excalibur too, but that book is a stealth Apocalypse solo so it’s more difficult to measure.

Logic doesn't prevent some fans from swearing by their headcanon that Ororo is -- hence the "Storm - African / LGBTQ (I think)/ Women".

You’re right the quality of the writer does impact how they’re able to tackle the topic. I also don’t think that every X-Men story should be about discrimination. At the same time I do think the franchise should practice what it preaches by being diverse and representative.

Also I don’t see the point in worrying about what the MCU does right now. The comics are the source material and we are years away from any MCU X-Men.

Discriminated by whom? The X-Men are regularly and currently being attacked by other mutants -- when was the last time the Mutant Humans (as a whole) were seriously attacked by Baseline Humans? Also, do you not consider that listing above to be diverse and representative?

[Kisinith]

Logic doesn't prevent some fans from swearing by their headcanon that Ororo is -- hence the "Storm - African / LGBTQ (I think)/ Women".

Actually that wasn't about headcanon, it was uncertainty. I remembered the arguments more than the resolution and couldn't find a clear answer right away so indicated my uncertainty. It's also why I edited it as soon as I got a clear answer. Similar issue with Betsy and FantomeX / Cluster, I can see the arguments for and against.

Discriminated by whom? The X-Men are regularly and currently being attacked by other mutants -- when was the last time the Mutant Humans (as a whole) were seriously attacked by Baseline Humans? Also, do you not consider that listing above to be diverse and representative?

I'm not sure I'm reading this right are you asking when was the last time the mutants were attacked by baseline humanity?

Most recently you have Orchis who in addition to their other activities building nimrods and sentinels in their leftover Stark base, had also rounded up mutant children to experiment on in X-Men #1. Next Generation reavers were sent in to assassinate Xavier in X-Force, and have continued to be weaponized and attack Krakoa going right up through X of Swords.

Before Hickman's run you had a state sponsored forced "mutant cure" as well as enslavement by military forces in Rosenberg's run, not to mention any number of hideously poorly managed deaths to ramp up the misery...
Sentinel production in general would qualify as they are giant WMD's designed solely to kill mutants, this was also a major factor in Schism and throughout Bendis's X-Men, the proliferation of sentinels around the world (although it didn't go anywhere)...
Bendis's Uncanny X-Men started out rescuing new mutants against a massive new wave of anti-mutant bigotry after AvX...
The Purifiers first appeared in God Loves Man Kills in 1982 returned in force in Messiah Complex in 2007/08...
The Sapien League came after them in 2006 after M-Day...
The Church of Humanity was a more radical offshoot of the friends of humanity in the early 2000's...
The Friends of Humanity themselves were major antagonists in the 90's...

A better question would be when was the last time that mutants as a whole were not seriously attacked (or more reasonably being threatened) by Baseline Humans.

[Devaishwarya]

The question then becomes...in this modern era, just how many writers want to invest time and critical effort into writing stories dealing with and focused on minority discrimination in a very direct manner? Even Claremont basically skirted around the topic.
Coates is the only one I can think of who might have written some stories but then...that topic is part and parcel of his literary schtick. The average head writers for the big2 generally stick to the high sci-fi/fantasy tales with a bit of the social commentary thrown in on occasion.

Of Marvel, specifically...the X-Men is the only franchise that actually acknowledges discrimination on a meaningful level...I could be wrong but I don't think The F4, Spiderman, the Avengers, ever really dealt with or incorporated discrimination themes in any significant ways throughout their published histories.

[Kisinith]

Technicaly people of color (of the various ethnicities fitting that term) and asians (also various ethnicities fitting that term) are majorities in their respective countries of origin. It can be argued that in these cases it's less about representing a minority (by american standard) and more about equaly representing an fellow global majority.

Basicly if you have a team meant to be international and representative of that, leaving out ethnicities which are equal or larger in number to the white europeans becomes noticable.

Even though the X-men are an american super hero comic and created with an anglo-centric team because of that, they have developed into a fundamentaly international team (even if the designated audience is still american) and their representation of characters can be judged by international standards and not just american. Which makes people from africa, asia and south america not minorities anymore but equal majorities.

Which does mean that paying attention to an equal representation of woman on the teams is still valid. Especialy since many super hero comics had a long history of designating woman as just token representation or wallpaper.
All while woman around the world are still struggeling for equal rights, treatment and payment, even in industrial countries. But the X-men comics do have a rather good track record with female characters.

All true, which is why trying to quantify this can be so problematic. I didn't write the list to be a definitive statement on the virtues of representation in the X-Men. It was a reaction to a lot of the statements earlier in this thread and in some of the others like it that have been popping up about how "bad" the X-line is with regards to minority and diverse representation. I firmly believe that they can do better, but I also think that they are doing a much better job than they are being given credit for.

[Su_Whisterfield]

The question then becomes...in this modern era, just how many writers want to invest time and critical effort into writing stories dealing with and focused on minority discrimination in a very direct manner? Even Claremont basically skirted around the topic.
Coates is the only one I can think of who might have written some stories but then...that topic is part and parcel of his literary schtick. The average head writers for the big2 generally stick to the high sci-fi/fantasy tales with a bit of the social commentary thrown in on occasion.

Of Marvel, specifically...the X-Men is the only franchise that actually acknowledges discrimination on a meaningful level...I could be wrong but I don't think The F4, Spiderman, the Avengers, ever really dealt with or incorporated discrimination themes in any significant ways throughout their published histories.

This was why the X-Men has been important to me since 1980. It’s why Nightcrawler was important to me. Because he was a metaphor for all of us who society wanted to chase with torches and pitchforks because we look different. Usually they weren’t literal torches and pitchforks. Usually.
‘Different’ could be because you were queer, or flamboyant. Could be because you were born different. Or had been in an accident. It wasn’t specific to one type of disadvantage, fans could project themselves onto the outsider, the freak, the monster. And they still can and still do.

[Devaishwarya]

Absolutely and Exactatiously, Su-W.