Can the Xmen still be a metaphor for discrimination when pretty much all theirs

[Kisinith]

This was why the X-Men has been important to me since 1980. It’s why Nightcrawler was important to me. Because he was a metaphor for all of us who society wanted to chase with torches and pitchforks because we look different. Usually they weren’t literal torches and pitchforks. Usually.
‘Different’ could be because you were queer, or flamboyant. Could be because you were born different. Or had been in an accident. It wasn’t specific to one type of disadvantage, fans could project themselves onto the outsider, the freak, the monster. And they still can and still do.

All of this, agreed 100%

[Zelena]

This was why the X-Men has been important to me since 1980. It’s why Nightcrawler was important to me. Because he was a metaphor for all of us who society wanted to chase with torches and pitchforks because we look different. Usually they weren’t literal torches and pitchforks. Usually.
‘Different’ could be because you were queer, or flamboyant. Could be because you were born different. Or had been in an accident. It wasn’t specific to one type of disadvantage, fans could project themselves onto the outsider, the freak, the monster. And they still can and still do.

The case of Nightcrawler was special among the X-men.

The mansion was more a refuge for him than any of the X-men. Without a gadget, he couldn’t walk in the city serenely.

For the rest, well, yes, they were different but it wasn’t obvious at first glance. It was more a secret thing, the most emblematic case being Charles Xavier. (Funny fact, Jean Grey lost her mask when she became Phoenix.)

I was more interested by their differences in the group and the need they had to understand each other to be a team than the fact they were different from the humans.

[Su_Whisterfield]

This was why the X-Men has been important to me since 1980. It’s why Nightcrawler was important to me. Because he was a metaphor for all of us who society wanted to chase with torches and pitchforks because we look different. Usually they weren’t literal torches and pitchforks. Usually.
‘Different’ could be because you were queer, or flamboyant. Could be because you were born different. Or had been in an accident. It wasn’t specific to one type of disadvantage, fans could project themselves onto the outsider, the freak, the monster. And they still can and still do.

And don’t get me wrong, having a wide representation, of different ethnicities, different sexualities, different genders is also absolutely vital; all kids deserve to see a hero who looks like them.

But X-Men books should always have one or more team member who is visibly muted, and I’m not just talking about a funky hair or skin colour, someone who can’t pass as human. It’s important, they’re a blank slate for fans to empathise with, no matter the fans own ethnicity, sexuality or gender.

[Zelena]

And don’t get me wrong, having a wide representation, of different ethnicities, different sexualities, different genders is also absolutely vital; all kids deserve to see a hero who looks like them.

But X-Men books should always have one or more team member who is visibly muted, and I’m not just talking about a funky hair or skin colour, someone who can’t pass as human. It’s important, they’re a blank slate for fans to empathise with, no matter the fans own ethnicity, sexuality or gender.

When I read the X-men, I recognized myself in all the X-men, I didn’t have a favourite. Mostly in their shortcomings than in their qualities…

Edit: And when I read the X-men comics, issue after issue, they didn’t look weird anymore to me, they just look normal, like when I read the Ghost rider, after a while, I didn’t see a burning skull anymore.

It’s what bothers me in this way of thinking: the reader doesn’t see the mutant anymore, they see the person. The “mutant” or any weird creature is not seen a representant of a group but an individual with a history.

How can we judge people (the ”humans” in MU) when they barely know them as anything else than “mutants”?

[Kingdom X]

And don’t get me wrong, having a wide representation, of different ethnicities, different sexualities, different genders is also absolutely vital; all kids deserve to see a hero who looks like them.

But X-Men books should always have one or more team member who is visibly muted, and I’m not just talking about a funky hair or skin colour, someone who can’t pass as human. It’s important, they’re a blank slate for fans to empathise with, no matter the fans own ethnicity, sexuality or gender.

Totally agree. So many people see this discussion as black and white while it really isn't. The metaphor can still exist while also having a wide breath of (meaningful) representation.

[Grunty]

But X-Men books should always have one or more team member who is visibly muted, and I’m not just talking about a funky hair or skin colour, someone who can’t pass as human. It’s important, they’re a blank slate for fans to empathise with, no matter the fans own ethnicity, sexuality or gender.

Just pondering a bit here, i agree with your opinion, but i wonder where someone like Marrow fits into this situation?

On one hand, her mutation only involves pink hair (and pink traces in the skin tone) and random growths on top of an otherwise normal looking body and when given enough controll over her powers she can actualy pass as normal without disguise.
Which somewhat makes her mutation less problematic or extreme as those of say Nightcrawler, Beast, Hemmingway, Blob, Shark Girl or Mercury. Who's mutations make them truely alien looking.
But on the other hand the wild growths appear to be a default part of her mutation (and her body is adjusted to it) which will always come back when she isn't supressing it actively.

Leaving her unable to truely pass as normal without effort, but also being capable of doing so with it. Somewhat similar to how people with Hypertrichosis aka. "Werewolf Syndrome" can shave their hair off, but it will always grow back sooner or later.

So power and change wise she seems somewhat stuck between the normal with little weirdness (hair color, skin color) mutants and those with full blown alien looking alterations to their bodies.

Meanwhile she is an a weird spot when it comes to her identity too. By real world standard she is just a white US american. But by marvel universe standard, her entire life was based on being a mutant and she never even had the chance to be anything else (having no citizenship because of it) than that.
Including having almost no direct interaction with normal human cultures for most of her youth, beyond the stories told through a pseudo-mystical lens by Morlocks and books which got washed into the tunnels.
Both cultural and ethnical she is entirely based on being part of a fictional mutant identity.

So would her inclusion in a team rob a representative of a real world minority of their chance because she is by real world standards just another white (and by most evidence straight) character? Or would it rob one of the truely alien looking mutant characters of their chance because she is just a normal looking person with some weird growths?

[Devaishwarya]

No she won't...because she's not "just another white character" by real world standards or fantasy world standards.
No it won't...because "truly alien looking mutants characters" still have their place and presence.

It's not an either/or-neither/nor scenario with respect to diversity/inclusion/representation.

[Grunty]

No she won't...because she's not "just another white character" by real world standards or fantasy world standards.
No it won't...because "truly alien looking mutants characters" still have their place and presence.

It's not an either/or-neither/nor scenario with respect to diversity/inclusion/representation.

That's a well put answer to dissuade from that train of thought.

[Micabe]

Actually that wasn't about headcanon, it was uncertainty. I remembered the arguments more than the resolution and couldn't find a clear answer right away so indicated my uncertainty. It's also why I edited it as soon as I got a clear answer. Similar issue with Betsy and FantomeX / Cluster, I can see the arguments for and against.



I'm not sure I'm reading this right are you asking when was the last time the mutants were attacked by baseline humanity?

Most recently you have Orchis who in addition to their other activities building nimrods and sentinels in their leftover Stark base, had also rounded up mutant children to experiment on in X-Men #1. Next Generation reavers were sent in to assassinate Xavier in X-Force, and have continued to be weaponized and attack Krakoa going right up through X of Swords.

Before Hickman's run you had a state sponsored forced "mutant cure" as well as enslavement by military forces in Rosenberg's run, not to mention any number of hideously poorly managed deaths to ramp up the misery...
Sentinel production in general would qualify as they are giant WMD's designed solely to kill mutants, this was also a major factor in Schism and throughout Bendis's X-Men, the proliferation of sentinels around the world (although it didn't go anywhere)...
Bendis's Uncanny X-Men started out rescuing new mutants against a massive new wave of anti-mutant bigotry after AvX...
The Purifiers first appeared in God Loves Man Kills in 1982 returned in force in Messiah Complex in 2007/08...
The Sapien League came after them in 2006 after M-Day...
The Church of Humanity was a more radical offshoot of the friends of humanity in the early 2000's...
The Friends of Humanity themselves were major antagonists in the 90's...

A better question would be when was the last time that mutants as a whole were not seriously attacked (or more reasonably being threatened) by Baseline Humans.

Fair enough -- that is exactly what I was trying to get at. I should have also said since moving to Krakoa. Thanks...

[Su_Whisterfield]

That's a well put answer to dissuade from that train of thought.

It certainly is. And mutants with ‘inconvenient’ powers are a metaphor for physical disabilities in our world.
And even then, on Earth 616, the Marrow’s, the Kurt’s are still privileged by their association with the X-Men and the money and resources that provides. It’s like the elite para-Olympian athletes, the ones that can still run or swim or fence or play basketball faster or better than most people of any ability and have advantages that the average disabled person doesn’t.

You can never get it all correct, just have to try.

[Besouro]

Totally agree. So many people see this discussion as black and white while it really isn't. The metaphor can still exist while also having a wide breath of (meaningful) representation.

As long as 90% of the leading X-Men and vast majority "wide breathe" of teams are white, right?

Yay.... "(meaningful) representation"!!!

White saviours ahoy!

[Besouro]

Riri is the only one from the last 5 years. Robbie Reyes is at 8.
Miles and Kamala hit 10 next year.

The rest have been around 40+ years in some form. UNLIKE Storm and Bishop and Jubliee-Falcon, Luke, Panther, Spectrum, Shang and Blade either had a mini or ongoing or gigs in the various books like Marvel Comic's Present before those 3.

Deathlok held a book. Night Thrasher held a book and mini. War Machine had a mini and ongoing. Black Goliath held a book. Rocket Racer had 4 backups. Nightwatch had a book.

The franchise based on Civil Rights wasn't living up to it.

The point is POC were doing more outside of X-Men (ESPECIALLY black males) than in it.

Ding ding ding effin gat damn diiiiiiiing!!!!!

Agreed and co-signed!

[Besouro]

Storm would carry a solo better if she had her own cast of supporting characters live Kamala and Miles have. Sure, Miles borrows a few characters from Peter but Storm's been relying on Black Panther's cast of characters for a while now. And if they were to just use X-men characters then what's the point of giving her a separate book?

Most successful new heroes with solo runs tend to have an equally entertaining cast of side characters.

Agreed....man, BP really REAALLY tried to elevate Storm by the X-side refused and ridiculed it at every opportunity (the recent Marauders #13 is the latest example).

Storm married her first love, became a Queen and an Avenger and joined the F4......and BP found and reunited Storm to her extended family (created in BP, the X-side have refused to explore Storm's family for decades).

But the x-side editors and writers (and x-fans apparently) prefer Storm being a relief for Wolverines sexual urges and then tossed around to whom ever other next xman in some weird rotating circle of semi-incestous cuckoldry.

And now Storm is reduced to taking orders from Emma and Kitty Pryde. You would think the leading non-white mutant would be *leading* her own team book of diverse characters....but no.

Instead we have the 2 most prominent non-white X-Men in the same book as lackeys.

[Kingdom X]

As long as 90% of the leading X-Men and vast majority "wide breathe" of teams are white, right?

Yay.... "(meaningful) representation"!!!

White saviours ahoy!

Most of my responses in this thread have been about how the X-Men need MORE real life representation. And by meaningful I mean that the characters aren't just there, but are also getting their own arcs.

Don't jump down someone's throat who is advocating for the same thing as you.

[BroHomo]

Riri is the only one from the last 5 years. Robbie Reyes is at 8.
Miles and Kamala hit 10 next year.

The rest have been around 40+ years in some form. UNLIKE Storm and Bishop and Jubliee-Falcon, Luke, Panther, Spectrum, Shang and Blade either had a mini or ongoing or gigs in the various books like Marvel Comic's Present before those 3.

Deathlok held a book. Night Thrasher held a book and mini. War Machine had a mini and ongoing. Black Goliath held a book. Rocket Racer had 4 backups. Nightwatch had a book.

The franchise based on Civil Rights wasn't living up to it.

The point is POC were doing more outside of X-Men (ESPECIALLY black males) than in it.

Buuuut how many of those books are about chars who are the seen as 'other' and fight the good fight while being discriminated against?
I don't see how it's not living up to the civil Rights it's obviously more minority representation (esp black dudes) needs to happen But the X-Men were founded to protect/fight for the basic human rights/dignity of a marginalized people. Preeetty sure that's still the case