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  1. #211
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    The main difference between Krakoa now and Genosha and Utopia then is that with Krakoa, all mutants are onboard --- more or less --- whereas Genosha and Utopia still had mutants divided amongst themselves, with many of the X-Men arguing it was a bad idea to self-segregate from (the rest of) humanity and the infamous Schism between Cyclops and Wolverine prompting Wolverine's faction to outright leave Utopia and set up a new mutant academy back in Westchester, New York.
    Ah, but thanks to the context of Utopia (namely the brink of extinction), virtually all mutants were onboard. And those that weren't were still offered protection from Utopia should they ever need it; not to mention, they still actively protected humans. And that was even after the Schism.

    And didn't the division of Utopia come only during Schism? Were there many voices against the idea of Utopia?
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  2. #212
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post


    Magneto issue is not humans, he knows mutants are also humans,from another race but still humans,his issue is what happens when institutions make a target of certain human groups. The main difference between Charles and Magneto is that Charles still believes you can change a system from the inside and make it work for everbody while Magneto thinks that system will ultimately use whatever means to target a vulnerable part of the population if itīs beneficial for those in charge and mutants make excellent biological weapons, so he believes only by being in charge of the system they may survive or have a chance.

    I also love the fact they had the beggining of this discussion on Israel I can see Xavier being all excited over his school while Magneto is just looking at him and seeing where they are currently living and thinking "Are you blind?

    Both have life experiences that teached them to think this way itīs part of what made their argument compelling for a long time still I like that they kind of getting to a middle point makes sense after all the experiences the X-men had post decimation and thatīs also why Magneto admired Scottīs work on Utopia because he managed to unite mutants under one banner in which they still keep most of the X-men ideology but without forgetting to work to help mutantkind in general.


    This is also why I hated Morrisonīs run, it introduced the concept of species to mutants but mutants are not a different species, they are still humans,most writers talked about mutants as a race until his run - ok rant over
    I think Magneto proves a point about vigilance but Xavier is ultimately correct.

    Also, yes, Scott's Utopia was pretty ideal in my opinion. It would've been great to see it in practice outside of the shadow of extinction.

    I forgot about that aspect of Morrison's run; truly not his best work even if I personally liked it.
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  3. #213
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Ah, but thanks to the context of Utopia (namely the brink of extinction), virtually all mutants were onboard. And those that weren't were still offered protection from Utopia should they ever need it; not to mention, they still actively protected humans. And that was even after the Schism.

    And didn't the division of Utopia come only during Schism? Were there many voices against the idea of Utopia?
    Considering everyone that walked off with Wolverine after Schism, I'd say there was more dissent against Utopia than previously acknowledged or shown in the books. And true, you raise a good point that both sets of X-Men were still protecting a world that feared and hated them, even if Cyclops's X-Men were doing so with a harder edge as deterrence against those that were still determined to finish off what remained of mutantkind. Of course, given that Krakoa's really a last-ditch effort by Xavier and Magneto to avoid complete extinction of mutants at the hands of "homo novissima," the final stage of the human-machine alliance against mutants, it might have more in common with Utopia, after all.
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  4. #214
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Pretty much this. The real issue is that for a very long time, human institutions and authorities have gained and maintained power through marginalizing, brutalizing, and exploiting those groups they view as other, and therefore less, than human, both in real life and within the context of the Marvel Universe regarding the existence of mutants. It's institutions that have to be changed, and if they can't be changed, if they can't be reformed, then for the sake of those they've harmed and would continue to harm, they have to be toppled and/or replaced.
    Agreed

    I think the main problem is that neither Xavier or Magneto were willing to bent part of their stance and that only helped to polarize mutants around both ideologies, this is also why unity that keeps part of both idelogies makes sense, makes mutants stronger and more able to defend themselves but also be a force for good and itīs a good way to end their opposition narratively speaking.

    When marvel went out of its way to make another Schism between Scott and Logan it felt completely artificial to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizachi
    I think Magneto proves a point about vigilance but Xavier is ultimately correct.

    Also, yes, Scott's Utopia was pretty ideal in my opinion. It would've been great to see it in practice outside of the shadow of extinction.

    I forgot about that aspect of Morrison's run; truly not his best work even if I personally liked it.
    I think thereīs a place for both thereīs a time to make a system work and thatīs the ideal part but thereīs also a time to understand when it no longer works and needs to be structuraly changed and marvel has make stories around both situations being true and neccesary. Maybe Magneto and Charles just should have listened to Amelia when she said they needed to unite.

    I liked the Utopia era for the same reasons I like Krakoa as an idea, I like they are working witting the system but still doing something different and new for themselves. If we get a title when they go out an help everybody else that would be ideal for me.

    I liked some issues on his run, mainly the "murder at the mansion arc" but his take on mutants in general and them being a species destined to replace humans really made me hate his run.The X-men always have been more nuanced than that.
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 10-10-2020 at 03:14 PM.
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  5. #215
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Considering everyone that walked off with Wolverine after Schism, I'd say there was more dissent against Utopia than previously acknowledged or shown in the books. And true, you raise a good point that both sets of X-Men were still protecting a world that feared and hated them, even if Cyclops's X-Men were doing so with a harder edge as deterrence against those that were still determined to finish off what remained of mutantkind. Of course, given that Krakoa's really a last-ditch effort by Xavier and Magneto to avoid complete extinction of mutants at the hands of "homo novissima," the final stage of the human-machine alliance against mutants, it might have more in common with Utopia, after all.
    But they didn't really show that, after the fact is no good. But yeah, the "harder edge" is true.

    As for the latter, only Magneto and Xavier know so the motivation isn't the same short-term.
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  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Agreed

    I think the main problem is that neither Xavier or Magneto were willing to bent part of their stance and that only helped to polarize mutants around both ideologies, this is also why unity that keeps part of both idelogies makes sense, makes mutants stronger and more able to defend themselves but also be a force for good and itīs a good way to end their opposition narratively speaking.

    When marvel went out of its way to make another Schism between Scott and Logan it felt completely artificial to me.
    lol, did anyone like Schism?

    But yeah, the X-Men should generally have a united front, or at least alliances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I think thereīs a place for both thereīs a time to make a system work and thatīs the ideal part but thereīs also a time to understand when it no longer works and needs to be structuraly changed and marvel has make stories around both situations being true and neccesary. Maybe Magneto and Charles just should have listened to Amelia when she said they needed to unite.

    I liked the Utopia era for the same reasons I like Krakoa as an idea, I like they are working witting the system but still doing something different and new for themselves. If we get a title when they go out an help everybody else that would be ideal for me.

    I liked some issues on his run, mainly the "murder at the mansion arc" but his take on mutants in general and them being a species destined to replace humans really made me hate his run.The X-men always have been more nuanced than that.
    Utopia was ideal for me. I'm glad so many people love the Krakoa stuff, but it just isn't doing anything for me.

    I think Morrison's failing there presents the strongest case against bottle-necking the X-Men into a single metaphorical interpretation. Not that he was doing that necessarily but it shows.
    Last edited by Hizashi; 10-10-2020 at 03:55 PM.
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  7. #217
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    lol, did anyone like Schism?

    But yeah, the X-Men should generally have a united front, or at least alliances.
    Agreed



    Utopia was ideal for me. I'm glad so many people love the Krakoa stuff, but it just isn't doing anything for me.

    I think Morrison's failing there presents the strongest case against bottle-necking the X-Men into a single metaphorical interpretation. Not that he was doing that necessarily but it shows.
    I like Krakoa mainly for the possibilities it presents with all the characters united, I like the potential for grow and relationships but I agree we need a little more character work to make us understand how itīs working at an internal level between them, I would like more interaction between Jean, Scott, Kurt, Ororo and Kitty, X-factor, etc. outside of missions or QC meetings as well as them interacting with everybody else on a day to day manner and of course missions like the one Psylocke took to protect the world not because it affected her personally but because it was the right thing to do. S.W.O.R.D may do some of this given itīs solicits it seems they will go there.

    Well the X-mansion was their main quarters at the time and have been since I can remember so I didnīt have a problem with that, I had a problem with Morrison making of the X-men something almost inhuman instead of the usual conflict of wanting to have a relationship with people but being bushed off because of their origins, appareance, etc but mainly I hated the species part when they always have been called mutant race not mutant species.
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 10-10-2020 at 04:12 PM.
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  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Considering everyone that walked off with Wolverine after Schism, I'd say there was more dissent against Utopia than previously acknowledged or shown in the books. And true, you raise a good point that both sets of X-Men were still protecting a world that feared and hated them, even if Cyclops's X-Men were doing so with a harder edge as deterrence against those that were still determined to finish off what remained of mutantkind. Of course, given that Krakoa's really a last-ditch effort by Xavier and Magneto to avoid complete extinction of mutants at the hands of "homo novissima," the final stage of the human-machine alliance against mutants, it might have more in common with Utopia, after all.
    Technicaly the "homo novissima" didn't made the mutants extinct. Though defeating them and putting their remnants in cages as "zoological excibit" is not much better either. Which is however still more than what could be said about the base humans in that timeline. Who actualy did become extinct, when the homo novissima replaced them and mutants as default form of humanity (or technicaly ended it).

    Ironicaly it means that those caged mutants were basicly the last survivors of the original humanity, as they were still at their core regular humans who just had randomized super powers placed on top of that by their X-gene. While homo novissima were so heavily augmented with super powers at their core that they have much more of a reason to see themself as not being humans anymore but something beyond them.

    Also calling them the "final stage of the human-machine alliance against mutans" might not be entirely correct. Since their very existence has made humanity extinct (except for the caged mutants as mentioned above) and because they kept the machines as servants rather than as equal partners.
    Homo novissima aren't slaves to machines like the humans shown in X2 (Life 9), instead they ensured machines to be their servants, because they no longer need them for their powers and protection anymore. Having powers beyond those of machines in their biological bodies.
    The Librarian even pointed out that what the Sentinels did was not to help humanity win against mutants, but just delay them long enough for humanity to turn to and refine the technology of genetic modifications to create "homo novissima".

    Basicly the conflict with the mutants, which the mutants kept on not losing, made humans so desperate that they turned to changing themself so heavily that they were no longer humans.

    Which is actualy quite interesting to think about. "Sentinels bought us years. Nimrods bought us decades." The librarian basicly says that mutants always survived or even won against all the machines thrown at them by the regular humans. It was only the creation of a form of humanity which is better than the mutants thanks to not having an "x-factor" for their super powers anymore, which allowed someone to defeat mutants. But at that point the normal humans ceased to exist too.
    It's also noteworthy that the Sentinels and Nimrods were shown vaporizing human figures and standing on piles of human skulls. While the context might suggest they are all mutant victims, what is ultimately shown is them killing humans on the order of other humans.

    As weird as it might sound. What we saw wasn't that "mutants always lose", the opposite actualy. X3/Life 6 indicates that mutants always won, over and over, until someone better than them showed up. But at that point the original humans were long gone and mutants had taken their place as the power wise "inferior" form of humanity.

    And this all gets me worried about what Magneto's and Xavier's in their current state might have in mind as endgame for mutantkind.

    Because what they might actualy plan is not to prevent "homo novissima" from existing, but to create them first only replacing digital and metal based machinery with mutant power and organic material based machinery. They've seen a stronger form of humanity than mutants are. So what if they didn't saw a horror in them, but a beauty to be achieved?
    The scene in Powers of X #6 where Xavier and Magneto talked with Moira X, seems to set them up with having made their own plans, that might even go contrary to what she desires.
    The five allready act like a manufactory. Forge allready creates machinery (including humanoid war machines resembling sentinels) from Krakoa's bio-mass. Mutants allready desire having their powers altered via rebirth. The Chimeras are basicly proto-homo-novissima (people created with purpose given powers).
    The elements are all there.

    During House of X/Powers of Ten and it's early promotion imagines, some have speculated that Xavier might have been replaced by The Maker from the ultimate universe, because of the similar shaped Cerebro.
    But that's obviously not the case. However this does not free him from potentialy being set up as being on the path of becomming a counterpart to him.

    Ultimately what might be at stake here is not just mutantkinds survival, but that of humanity in either natural form (powered or not) and not because of the dangers of technology, but because of the conflict between the two parts of humanity leads to their mutual destruction via a replacement.

    If that's the path Hickman has in mind, it will be quite interesting to see who wises up to it. Perhaps Moira X herself?
    Last edited by Grunty; 10-10-2020 at 04:42 PM.

  9. #219
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Well in Moiraīs words "we always lose" is what she told Charles and Magneto so I doubt they think homo novissima was a desired end point for anyone,specially since they were about to be absorbed by the phalanx who were even doubting making them part of their civilization because they were way too organic still and what they canīt absorb they kill off the librarian knew this and wanted to see if even the reamins of mutants minds could help stop that before adimitting there was no stopping the phalanx but I do think they want to stop the "mutual destruction situation" and thatīs why they want to stop the mutant/human war who brings to life the homo novissima and the phalanx by "breaking all the rules" as Moira said.

    I think Moira X is the real question here, because she used to believe mutants were a sickness she wanted to cure and only stopped out of fear of Destiny at first and later by all her experiences helping mutants and being "radicalized" by those experiences , sheīs the one who was behind Charles and Magneto recruitment to make Krakoa a reality and insists on being hidden from everyone except them on the island, as well as the ban on precognitive mutants, I think in the end she will either be made a grey character who tries to do her best or the villain of the story or something in between.
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 10-10-2020 at 04:55 PM.
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  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Well in Moiraīs words "we always lose" is what she told Charles and Magneto so I doubt they think homo novissima was a desired end point for anyone,specially since they were about to be absorbed by the phalanx who were even doubting making them part of their civilization because they were way too organic still and what they canīt absorb they kill off but I do think they want to stop the "mutual destruction situation" and thatīs why they want to stop the mutant/human war by "breaking all the rules" as Moira said.

    I think Moira X is the real question here, because she used to believe mutants were a sickness she wanted to cure and only stopped out of fear of Destiny, sheīs the one who was behind Charles and Magneto recruitment to make Krakoa a reality and insists on being hidden from everyone except them on the island, as well as the ban on precognitive mutants, I think in the end she will either be made a grey character who tries to do her best or the villain of the story or something in between.
    Good points and definetly a possibility too. Though i doubt Moira will be a villain. That feels too obvious to me (not that i can't happen).

  11. #221
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Yes knowing Hickman it will probably be something else.
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  12. #222
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grunty View Post
    Technicaly the "homo novissima" didn't made the mutants extinct. Though defeating them and putting their remnants in cages as "zoological excibit" is not much better either. Which is however still more than what could be said about the base humans in that timeline. Who actualy did become extinct, when the homo novissima replaced them and mutants as default form of humanity (or technicaly ended it).

    Ironicaly it means that those caged mutants were basicly the last survivors of the original humanity, as they were still at their core regular humans who just had randomized super powers placed on top of that by their X-gene. While homo novissima were so heavily augmented with super powers at their core that they have much more of a reason to see themself as not being humans anymore but something beyond them.

    Also calling them the "final stage of the human-machine alliance against mutans" might not be entirely correct. Since their very existence has made humanity extinct (except for the caged mutants as mentioned above) and because they kept the machines as servants rather than as equal partners.
    Homo novissima aren't slaves to machines like the humans shown in X2 (Life 9), instead they ensured machines to be their servants, because they no longer need them for their powers and protection anymore. Having powers beyond those of machines in their biological bodies.
    The Librarian even pointed out that what the Sentinels did was not to help humanity win against mutants, but just delay them long enough for humanity to turn to and refine the technology of genetic modifications to create "homo novissima".

    Basicly the conflict with the mutants, which the mutants kept on not losing, made humans so desperate that they turned to changing themself so heavily that they were no longer humans.

    Which is actualy quite interesting to think about. "Sentinels bought us years. Nimrods bought us decades." The librarian basicly says that mutants always survived or even won against all the machines thrown at them by the regular humans. It was only the creation of a form of humanity which is better than the mutants thanks to not having an "x-factor" for their super powers anymore, which allowed someone to defeat mutants. But at that point the normal humans ceased to exist too.
    It's also noteworthy that the Sentinels and Nimrods were shown vaporizing human figures and standing on piles of human skulls. While the context might suggest they are all mutant victims, what is ultimately shown is them killing humans on the order of other humans.

    As weird as it might sound. What we saw wasn't that "mutants always lose", the opposite actualy. X3/Life 6 indicates that mutants always won, over and over, until someone better than them showed up. But at that point the original humans were long gone and mutants had taken their place as the power wise "inferior" form of humanity.

    And this all gets me worried about what Magneto's and Xavier's in their current state might have in mind as endgame for mutantkind.

    Because what they might actualy plan is not to prevent "homo novissima" from existing, but to create them first only replacing digital and metal based machinery with mutant power and organic material based machinery. They've seen a stronger form of humanity than mutants are. So what if they didn't saw a horror in them, but a beauty to be achieved?
    The scene in Powers of X #6 where Xavier and Magneto talked with Moira X, seems to set them up with having made their own plans, that might even go contrary to what she desires.
    The five allready act like a manufactory. Forge allready creates machinery (including humanoid war machines resembling sentinels) from Krakoa's bio-mass. Mutants allready desire having their powers altered via rebirth. The Chimeras are basicly proto-homo-novissima (people created with purpose given powers).
    The elements are all there.

    During House of X/Powers of Ten and it's early promotion imagines, some have speculated that Xavier might have been replaced by The Maker from the ultimate universe, because of the similar shaped Cerebro.
    But that's obviously not the case. However this does not free him from potentialy being set up as being on the path of becomming a counterpart to him.

    Ultimately what might be at stake here is not just mutantkinds survival, but that of humanity in either natural form (powered or not) and not because of the dangers of technology, but because of the conflict between the two parts of humanity leads to their mutual destruction via a replacement.

    If that's the path Hickman has in mind, it will be quite interesting to see who wises up to it. Perhaps Moira X herself?
    That's a great rundown, and yeah, I could see the real outcome being that, "Humans and mutants need to come together, despite everything they've done to each other, or else neither of them are going to survive in the face of a third faction seeking to replace them both as the dominant species of the planet." Come to think of it, that could be a fantastical allegory for the need in real life for humankind to come together as one people, lest all the current challenges of the real world turn out to be the downfall of human civilization.
    Last edited by Huntsman Spider; 10-10-2020 at 08:20 PM.
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  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grunty View Post
    Technicaly the "homo novissima" didn't made the mutants extinct. Though defeating them and putting their remnants in cages as "zoological excibit" is not much better either. Which is however still more than what could be said about the base humans in that timeline. Who actualy did become extinct, when the homo novissima replaced them and mutants as default form of humanity (or technicaly ended it).

    Ironicaly it means that those caged mutants were basicly the last survivors of the original humanity, as they were still at their core regular humans who just had randomized super powers placed on top of that by their X-gene. While homo novissima were so heavily augmented with super powers at their core that they have much more of a reason to see themself as not being humans anymore but something beyond them.

    Also calling them the "final stage of the human-machine alliance against mutans" might not be entirely correct. Since their very existence has made humanity extinct (except for the caged mutants as mentioned above) and because they kept the machines as servants rather than as equal partners.
    Homo novissima aren't slaves to machines like the humans shown in X2 (Life 9), instead they ensured machines to be their servants, because they no longer need them for their powers and protection anymore. Having powers beyond those of machines in their biological bodies.
    The Librarian even pointed out that what the Sentinels did was not to help humanity win against mutants, but just delay them long enough for humanity to turn to and refine the technology of genetic modifications to create "homo novissima".

    Basicly the conflict with the mutants, which the mutants kept on not losing, made humans so desperate that they turned to changing themself so heavily that they were no longer humans.

    Which is actualy quite interesting to think about. "Sentinels bought us years. Nimrods bought us decades." The librarian basicly says that mutants always survived or even won against all the machines thrown at them by the regular humans. It was only the creation of a form of humanity which is better than the mutants thanks to not having an "x-factor" for their super powers anymore, which allowed someone to defeat mutants. But at that point the normal humans ceased to exist too.
    It's also noteworthy that the Sentinels and Nimrods were shown vaporizing human figures and standing on piles of human skulls. While the context might suggest they are all mutant victims, what is ultimately shown is them killing humans on the order of other humans.

    As weird as it might sound. What we saw wasn't that "mutants always lose", the opposite actualy. X3/Life 6 indicates that mutants always won, over and over, until someone better than them showed up. But at that point the original humans were long gone and mutants had taken their place as the power wise "inferior" form of humanity.

    And this all gets me worried about what Magneto's and Xavier's in their current state might have in mind as endgame for mutantkind.

    Because what they might actualy plan is not to prevent "homo novissima" from existing, but to create them first only replacing digital and metal based machinery with mutant power and organic material based machinery. They've seen a stronger form of humanity than mutants are. So what if they didn't saw a horror in them, but a beauty to be achieved?
    The scene in Powers of X #6 where Xavier and Magneto talked with Moira X, seems to set them up with having made their own plans, that might even go contrary to what she desires.
    The five allready act like a manufactory. Forge allready creates machinery (including humanoid war machines resembling sentinels) from Krakoa's bio-mass. Mutants allready desire having their powers altered via rebirth. The Chimeras are basicly proto-homo-novissima (people created with purpose given powers).
    The elements are all there.

    During House of X/Powers of Ten and it's early promotion imagines, some have speculated that Xavier might have been replaced by The Maker from the ultimate universe, because of the similar shaped Cerebro.
    But that's obviously not the case. However this does not free him from potentialy being set up as being on the path of becomming a counterpart to him.

    Ultimately what might be at stake here is not just mutantkinds survival, but that of humanity in either natural form (powered or not) and not because of the dangers of technology, but because of the conflict between the two parts of humanity leads to their mutual destruction via a replacement.

    If that's the path Hickman has in mind, it will be quite interesting to see who wises up to it. Perhaps Moira X herself?
    Agree with you and I think that plan is well underway when you say mutants want to be the ones the evolve into 'homo superior novissima' It's what I think is Xavier's plan in X-Men 5 see the homo novissima are not something they can stop because they ALREADY exist as the Children of the Vault! I think Xavier lied to Scott that he was sending them on a recon mission instead he wanted mutants to harness the vault's technology to evolve alongside the children so that you have homo novissima and homo superior 'novissima' .

    However this is a very tricky gamble because once Synch ,Darwin and X23 evolve along technological lines 1.They may drift from mutant genetics as well and so cease to be mutant in the way Xavier expects. 2.They may evolve beyond mutant into something else entirely, not necessarily alien(maybe Darwin and Synch can become godlike beings) but not at all beholden to Krakoa simply because their thought process will have more in common with the children of the vault than Xavier and co.If indeed the vault evolves them to peak potential they may be like Xavier and his puny protocols are a waste of time and the mutants aren't thinking big enough.So basically Xavier could have created a huge problem for Krakoa.We'll just have to wait and see

  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    I was giving this a lot of thought. I understand how everyone says that the Xmen are metaphors for discrimination because you can lump them into any group. You are Black? The Xmen speak to you. You are gay the Xmen speak to you.

    But my question is does it take away from the metaphor or does the metaphor not hold up as well when pretty much every major Xmen character is white?

    I am not up on the last ten years or so of Xmen so Maybe this has changed. When I hear people talk about black characters in the X world it is always Bishop or Storm. Gay characters? Northstar who is not a major character and Ice Man.

    So like I ask does the metaphor still hold up today?

    If I am wrong on this please tell me who some of the other major characters are that are POC or Gay.
    Very good questions and my answer to it is NO....the equality and discrimination themes is hyperbole.

  15. #225
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    Main MU had done waaaaaay better with MEANINGFUL inclusivity of diversity.

    Luke Cage had some long running comics (Powerman, Luke Cage, Powerman and Iron fist, Heroes for hire) as well as several minis on top of that..he got married !and is still married) , had a child and was a leader of many Avengers teams.

    Kamala/Ms Marvel has had a successful solo series and is the team leader and prominent character of the Champions which has its own book series AND she is at the centre of the current "Outlaw" event.....AND she has her own tv show coming.

    Miles....self explanatory

    BP....self explanatory... successful movie (that did faaar better that any xmen film including the praised Logan), many solos, spin offs, leader of several teams which have/had their own team books including the avengers (currently their leader). Tried to elevate Storm...that got shut down thanks to the X-side writers n editors.

    Falcon...had prominent and continuous development throughout Captn America then became CA himself headlining the CA book for years then got his own short solo series and now has a duo series alongside Winter soldier/WS ......AND a tv show coming next year.

    Misty knight....looong and perpetual development from her days in PM&IF to practically taking over Heroes for Hire as the leader....going through a miscarriage.... to Daughters of the dragon to leading the Fearless Defenders to currently dating Falcon always kicking ass and contributive to plot progression.

    Ghost Rider.....currently Latino (new character not a raceswap nonsense)...has his own solo and a prominent character in the current Avengers.

    Ironheart/Riri Williams.... replaced Stark as Ironman then got her own solo series and is a prominent member of The Champions.

    No half-assing, no tactical tokenism, no wall paper thin superfluous FAKE diversity like the Xmen.

    Where are the non-white X-Men equivalents?

    Given the very foundations of the X-Men being equality and diversity.....where is it? Where is this equality and diversity in any truly meaningful manner?

    TONS of x team books...where are the non-white leaders?

    Look at the team Dynamics where is the meaningful inclusive diversity? All we get are superfluous non-white wall paper thin characters who never progress or develop or don't truly contribute to plot progression.

    Tactical tokenism at it's finest!!!!

    Given theme....

    .... where are the X-Men solos on non-white mutants?

    .... Why are the team Dynamics being overwhelmingly white?

    ..... Why are the non white mutants perpetually denied progression and ACTUAL input to plot progression?

    .....why does progression and character development of non-white mutants from outside the x-verse either get ridiculed or utterly ignored? Just look at Storm and Suspot as prime examples.

    How is it that the X-Men can has ALL WHITE teams but never have ALL NON-WHITE mixed teams?.....or a team where the token white?

    How come the most recurring pairings and relationships are white?

    And interracial pairings MUST have a white person involved with the primary exception of Warpath and Blink which also seems to be ignored or not being progressed.

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