Can the Xmen still be a metaphor for discrimination when pretty much all theirs

[loke13]

Technicaly the "homo novissima" didn't made the mutants extinct. Though defeating them and putting their remnants in cages as "zoological excibit" is not much better either. Which is however still more than what could be said about the base humans in that timeline. Who actualy did become extinct, when the homo novissima replaced them and mutants as default form of humanity (or technicaly ended it).

Ironicaly it means that those caged mutants were basicly the last survivors of the original humanity, as they were still at their core regular humans who just had randomized super powers placed on top of that by their X-gene. While homo novissima were so heavily augmented with super powers at their core that they have much more of a reason to see themself as not being humans anymore but something beyond them.

Also calling them the "final stage of the human-machine alliance against mutans" might not be entirely correct. Since their very existence has made humanity extinct (except for the caged mutants as mentioned above) and because they kept the machines as servants rather than as equal partners.
Homo novissima aren't slaves to machines like the humans shown in X2 (Life 9), instead they ensured machines to be their servants, because they no longer need them for their powers and protection anymore. Having powers beyond those of machines in their biological bodies.
The Librarian even pointed out that what the Sentinels did was not to help humanity win against mutants, but just delay them long enough for humanity to turn to and refine the technology of genetic modifications to create "homo novissima".

Basicly the conflict with the mutants, which the mutants kept on not losing, made humans so desperate that they turned to changing themself so heavily that they were no longer humans.

Which is actualy quite interesting to think about. "Sentinels bought us years. Nimrods bought us decades." The librarian basicly says that mutants always survived or even won against all the machines thrown at them by the regular humans. It was only the creation of a form of humanity which is better than the mutants thanks to not having an "x-factor" for their super powers anymore, which allowed someone to defeat mutants. But at that point the normal humans ceased to exist too.
It's also noteworthy that the Sentinels and Nimrods were shown vaporizing human figures and standing on piles of human skulls. While the context might suggest they are all mutant victims, what is ultimately shown is them killing humans on the order of other humans.

As weird as it might sound. What we saw wasn't that "mutants always lose", the opposite actualy. X3/Life 6 indicates that mutants always won, over and over, until someone better than them showed up. But at that point the original humans were long gone and mutants had taken their place as the power wise "inferior" form of humanity.

And this all gets me worried about what Magneto's and Xavier's in their current state might have in mind as endgame for mutantkind.

Because what they might actualy plan is not to prevent "homo novissima" from existing, but to create them first only replacing digital and metal based machinery with mutant power and organic material based machinery. They've seen a stronger form of humanity than mutants are. So what if they didn't saw a horror in them, but a beauty to be achieved?
The scene in Powers of X #6 where Xavier and Magneto talked with Moira X, seems to set them up with having made their own plans, that might even go contrary to what she desires.
The five allready act like a manufactory. Forge allready creates machinery (including humanoid war machines resembling sentinels) from Krakoa's bio-mass. Mutants allready desire having their powers altered via rebirth. The Chimeras are basicly proto-homo-novissima (people created with purpose given powers).
The elements are all there.

During House of X/Powers of Ten and it's early promotion imagines, some have speculated that Xavier might have been replaced by The Maker from the ultimate universe, because of the similar shaped Cerebro.
But that's obviously not the case. However this does not free him from potentialy being set up as being on the path of becomming a counterpart to him.

Ultimately what might be at stake here is not just mutantkinds survival, but that of humanity in either natural form (powered or not) and not because of the dangers of technology, but because of the conflict between the two parts of humanity leads to their mutual destruction via a replacement.

If that's the path Hickman has in mind, it will be quite interesting to see who wises up to it. Perhaps Moira X herself?

Eh I don't think you can classify surviving as winning. Mutants had sporadic moments of expansion and thriving but in the end were always brought down low and pushed to the brink of extinction.

[Zelena]

Main MU had done waaaaaay better with MEANINGFUL inclusivity of diversity.

I agree: I saw much more diversity in other comics than X-men comics. Daredevil, Spider-man are usually dealing with habitual criminality. Their stories must take place in a world that looks like ours. It would be odd that there’s no diversity. And the superheroes that help them must reflect our world.

The X-men comics are more a fantasy.

[Besouro]

I agree: I saw much more diversity in other comics than X-men comics. Daredevil, Spider-man are usually dealing with habitual criminality. Their stories must take place in a world that looks like ours. It would be odd that there’s no diversity. And the superheroes that help them must reflect our world.

I agree!

The X-men comics are more a fantasy.

Not when that "fantasy" is literally based on racial equality and discrimination.

Not when according to the creator himself late Stan Lee (and Kirby) ....the X-Men were based on the civil Rights movement

[BroHomo]

Main MU had done waaaaaay better with MEANINGFUL inclusivity of diversity.

Luke Cage had some long running comics (Powerman, Luke Cage, Powerman and Iron fist, Heroes for hire) as well as several minis on top of that..he got married !and is still married) , had a child and was a leader of many Avengers teams.

Kamala/Ms Marvel has had a successful solo series and is the team leader and prominent character of the Champions which has its own book series AND she is at the centre of the current "Outlaw" event.....AND she has her own tv show coming.

Miles....self explanatory

BP....self explanatory... successful movie (that did faaar better that any xmen film including the praised Logan), many solos, spin offs, leader of several teams which have/had their own team books including the avengers (currently their leader). Tried to elevate Storm...that got shut down thanks to the X-side writers n editors.

Falcon...had prominent and continuous development throughout Captn America then became CA himself headlining the CA book for years then got his own short solo series and now has a duo series alongside Winter soldier/WS ......AND a tv show coming next year.

Misty knight....looong and perpetual development from her days in PM&IF to practically taking over Heroes for Hire as the leader....going through a miscarriage.... to Daughters of the dragon to leading the Fearless Defenders to currently dating Falcon always kicking ass and contributive to plot progression.

Ghost Rider.....currently Latino (new character not a raceswap nonsense)...has his own solo and a prominent character in the current Avengers.

Ironheart/Riri Williams.... replaced Stark as Ironman then got her own solo series and is a prominent member of The Champions.

This whole list is disingenuous as 99% of these "diversity pillars" happened in the last 5 years....and the rest haven't happened yet. THe only exception is BP who before the movie came out was as well known to the general Public as Feron lol

No half-assing, no tactical tokenism, no wall paper thin superfluous FAKE diversity like the Xmen.

huh? The Xmen are mutants, mutants are not the majority in the 616 but no one is putting a mutant in a lineup as a diversity win.

.... Why are the team Dynamics being overwhelmingly white?

Most of Marvel's heroes are white. Not like the Xmen is the only franchise....Examples of this in the Avengers?

..... Why are the non white mutants perpetually denied progression and ACTUAL input to plot progression?

I wouldnt say they are denied, and itd be hard to prove.

.....why does progression and character development of non-white mutants from outside the x-verse either get ridiculed or utterly ignored? Just look at Storm and Suspot as prime examples.

Most of the time its cringey....not sure how progressive Sunspots development since he was getting whiter each issue.

How is it that the X-Men can has ALL WHITE teams but never have ALL NON-WHITE mixed teams?.....or a team where the token white?

Do the Avengers have an all black team now or something? Besides BP (recently) Luke, and Falcon who are the Black djudes that are on the Avengers

How come the most recurring pairings and relationships are white?

Cause most of the Xmen white.

The primary exception of Warpath and Blink which also seems to be ignored or not being progressed.

cause that **** was just for tv Dude

[Hizashi]

Agreed

I like Krakoa mainly for the possibilities it presents with all the characters united, I like the potential for grow and relationships but I agree we need a little more character work to make us understand how it´s working at an internal level between them, I would like more interaction between Jean, Scott, Kurt, Ororo and Kitty, X-factor, etc. outside of missions or QC meetings as well as them interacting with everybody else on a day to day manner and of course missions like the one Psylocke took to protect the world not because it affected her personally but because it was the right thing to do. S.W.O.R.D may do some of this given it´s solicits it seems they will go there.

Well the X-mansion was their main quarters at the time and have been since I can remember so I didn´t have a problem with that, I had a problem with Morrison making of the X-men something almost inhuman instead of the usual conflict of wanting to have a relationship with people but being bushed off because of their origins, appareance, etc but mainly I hated the species part when they always have been called mutant race not mutant species.

There are certainly things about Krakoa that I like and what you describe would go a long way to getting me into it again. There's just so much lore building.

Yeah I guess we refer to them as mutants so much that sometimes we forget that they're still human.

That's a great rundown, and yeah, I could see the real outcome being that, "Humans and mutants need to come together, despite everything they've done to each other, or else neither of them are going to survive in the face of a third faction seeking to replace them both as the dominant species of the planet." Come to think of it, that could be a fantastical allegory for the need in real life for humankind to come together as one people, lest all the current challenges of the real world turn out to be the downfall of human civilization.

I'd love if this is the direction he's going.

[Zelena]

Not when that "fantasy" is literally based on racial equality and discrimination.

Not when according to the creator himself late Stan Lee (and Kirby) ....the X-Men were based on the civil Rights movement

Hard to say if it was his intention from the start or if, retrospectively, when he was asked, he agreed that it was a good metaphor for it.

Anyway, creators… creates in an environment that is permeated by politics, are probably influenced by them and takes elements from whatever they deem interesting as engines of the story.

I don’t put that on the same level as an historical and sociological analysis of real facts. It gives too much credits to comics authors.

[Grunty]

Eh I don't think you can classify surviving as winning. Mutants had sporadic moments of expansion and thriving but in the end were always brought down low and pushed to the brink of extinction.

I assume you are refering to the events of the 616 universe, in which over the last 15 years of comics the X-men and mutants did indeed got hit with 3 near extinction events. However i was refering to X3/Life 6 timeline in which the Homo Novissima appeared.

Now of course we don't know the exact details of what happend in that timeline before the year 3000+ where the Librarian decides to confront Moira MacTaggert about how the mutants lost.
While X2/Life 9 showed humans turning to worshiping machines and using technology to alter their babies, that was under circumstances where Apocalypse and Moira went to war with the entire world, which visible resulted in it's total devestation. So no surprise humans turned desperate and felt they needed to alter themselves.
Meanwhile judging by how mutants were noted to have found new homes in other galactic civilizations. It seems they are better off than the rest of humanity on a devestated earth who are controlled by the machines meant to hunt mutants (of whom practically none remained on earth).
But judging by how the Librarian considers mass produced Nimrods (remember one of those is allready a major source of dread for X-men) to have been a "distraction", it kind of implies that the mutants always got the upper hand in the conflicts of X3/Life 6 between them and their normal human enemies.

It's why i found the display of Sentinels and Nimrods standing over clearly human remains to be somewhat noteworthy. Since it wouldn't be too farfetched to consider that the enemies of mutants would also turn on fellow unpowered humans they considered traitors, until only the radicals (which are also usualy those who build Sentinels) remained. Which is actualy something that often seems to get dropped on the wayside. That there could very well be a conflict between humanity over the rights and fates of mutants.

Btw. I always find the idea of the Sentinels as the tools of a collective human effort against mutants to be non-sensical. Throughout the Marvel Universe so far only singular villains, extremist groups, secret organizations (including companies owned by Sebastian Shaw oh the irony) and clandestine part of the US government have actualy employed the Sentinels in any capacity. That's officialy PART of one nation (excluding Latveria because it's less a real nation and more just Doctor Dooms playground) out of more or less 195 and it's doubtfull the entire population of the United States would actualy be in favor of such weapon platforms existing or being deployed in their country.
Especialy since the Sentinels have a tendency to cause a lot of colleteral damage and deaths when fighting their targets. Since after all they are giant heavily armed weapon plaforms, piloted by a very dumb AI.
Even in Days of Future Past timeline the Sentinels who took controll of the USA were actualy planning to go to war with the rest of the world, over their programming to destroy the percieved danger of mutants, which resulted in them wanting to controll the entire humanity (because mutants are born from humans). Though someone correct me if i remembered this wrong.

Infact the existence of Sentinels should have changed the nature of regular military conflicts in the Marvel Universe if they were an official weapon deployed by the US government.
Because each technology necessary for making something like the big sentinels would be a technological revolution in itself. But as mentioned before such technologies are not allowed to be commonplace in the marvel universe, because it needs to be stuck at our current level of technology for regular part of the world, seperated from the super science of the super hero side.
But i digress.

My point was. The existence of Homo Novissima being created seems to depend on the mutants actualy winning enough that remaining humans not on their side become desperate enough to so heavily augment themself that no normal humans exist anymore. As indicated by what the Librian said.

[skyvolt2000]

This whole list is disingenuous as 99% of these "diversity pillars" happened in the last 5 years....and the rest haven't happened yet. THe only exception is BP who before the movie came out was as well known to the general Public as Feron lol

Riri is the only one from the last 5 years. Robbie Reyes is at 8.
Miles and Kamala hit 10 next year.

The rest have been around 40+ years in some form. UNLIKE Storm and Bishop and Jubliee-Falcon, Luke, Panther, Spectrum, Shang and Blade either had a mini or ongoing or gigs in the various books like Marvel Comic's Present before those 3.

Deathlok held a book. Night Thrasher held a book and mini. War Machine had a mini and ongoing. Black Goliath held a book. Rocket Racer had 4 backups. Nightwatch had a book.

The franchise based on Civil Rights wasn't living up to it.

The point is POC were doing more outside of X-Men (ESPECIALLY black males) than in it.

[Huntsman Spider]

Riri is the only one from the last 5 years. Robbie Reyes is at 8.
Miles and Kamala hit 10 next year.

The rest have been around 40+ years in some form. UNLIKE Storm and Bishop and Jubliee-Falcon, Luke, Panther, Spectrum, Shang and Blade either had a mini or ongoing or gigs in the various books like Marvel Comic's Present before those 3.

Deathlok held a book. Night Thrasher held a book and mini. War Machine had a mini and ongoing. Black Goliath held a book. Rocket Racer had 4 backups. Nightwatch had a book.

The franchise based on Civil Rights wasn't living up to it.

The point is POC were doing more outside of X-Men (ESPECIALLY black males) than in it.

That actually gets us back to the original topic, whether the X-Men as a franchise and a narrative really can piggyback off "mutants as metaphor" for marginalized groups in the real world if those marginalized groups are also marginalized within said franchise and narrative.

[Besouro]

Riri is the only one from the last 5 years. Robbie Reyes is at 8.
Miles and Kamala hit 10 next year.

The rest have been around 40+ years in some form. UNLIKE Storm and Bishop and Jubliee-Falcon, Luke, Panther, Spectrum, Shang and Blade either had a mini or ongoing or gigs in the various books like Marvel Comic's Present before those 3.

Deathlok held a book. Night Thrasher held a book and mini. War Machine had a mini and ongoing. Black Goliath held a book. Rocket Racer had 4 backups. Nightwatch had a book.

The franchise based on Civil Rights wasn't living up to it.

The point is POC were doing more outside of X-Men (ESPECIALLY black males) than in it.

I will even go further...

Main MU now has an entire team of Asian supheroes- New Agents of atlas

Kamala Khan has a solo and is leader a team book- Champions

Asian Superhero having solos live Aero and Swordmaster and now Shangchi .

Miguel -Spiderman 2099 has had MANY solos

So it's not just black males but Main MU is truly and actually living up to meaningful and inclusive diversity far above and better than the xmen.

Where are the Asian male xmen?

How many non-white mutants have led team books .....the near endless collection of multiple teams across over half a century?

Only 2.....being storm (primary racial quota token) and Psylocke...whiteboy fetishist yellow fever stand-in.

Where are the solos for non-white mutants?

Why do so many non-white mutants keep getting potrayed as white?

I truly and honestly thought that Hickman would revolutionize the character dynamics of the xmen....given his clout as a superb leading writer in Marvel currently, reader would read any x-characters he chooses. He himself mentioned the lack of diversity in the X-Men in an early interview.

But hello n behold....look at what we got.....great plot, same white power abound claiming to champion equality.

[Besouro]

That actually gets us back to the original topic, whether the X-Men as a franchise and a narrative really can piggyback off "mutants as metaphor" for marginalized groups in the real world if those marginalized groups are also marginalized within said franchise and narrative.

Agreed and very well said.....I think it X-Men has become pretentious, contradictory and hyper-hypocritical to it's very claims for equality.

[Huntsman Spider]

Agreed and very well said.....I think it X-Men has become pretentious, contradictory and hyper-hypocritical to it's very claims for equality.

Thanks, and yeah, it is incredibly self-contradictory for X-Men as a franchise to claim the narrative of metaphorical or allegorical representation while overlooking or denying opportunities to include and --- perhaps more pertinently --- promote characters that come from real-world minorities and other marginalized groups, though I am still hopeful that'll change sooner rather than later.

[Hizashi]

Riri is the only one from the last 5 years. Robbie Reyes is at 8.
Miles and Kamala hit 10 next year.

The rest have been around 40+ years in some form. UNLIKE Storm and Bishop and Jubliee-Falcon, Luke, Panther, Spectrum, Shang and Blade either had a mini or ongoing or gigs in the various books like Marvel Comic's Present before those 3.

Deathlok held a book. Night Thrasher held a book and mini. War Machine had a mini and ongoing. Black Goliath held a book. Rocket Racer had 4 backups. Nightwatch had a book.

The franchise based on Civil Rights wasn't living up to it.

The point is POC were doing more outside of X-Men (ESPECIALLY black males) than in it.

I believe Storm has had two minis? Can't really argue with you otherwise. I don't know, it seems like unless you're Wolverine (or Wolverine-adjacent) or Cable it's tough to hold up a solo book in the X-franchise. Maybe the books being ensemble casts with interpersonal dynamics being a chief characteristic puts limits on solo draws?

[OopsIdiditagain]

I believe Storm has had two minis? Can't really argue with you otherwise. I don't know, it seems like unless you're Wolverine (or Wolverine-adjacent) or Cable it's tough to hold up a solo book in the X-franchise. Maybe the books being ensemble casts with interpersonal dynamics being a chief characteristic puts limits on solo draws?

Storm would carry a solo better if she had her own cast of supporting characters live Kamala and Miles have. Sure, Miles borrows a few characters from Peter but Storm's been relying on Black Panther's cast of characters for a while now. And if they were to just use X-men characters then what's the point of giving her a separate book?

Most successful new heroes with solo runs tend to have an equally entertaining cast of side characters.

[Kisinith]

Thanks, and yeah, it is incredibly self-contradictory for X-Men as a franchise to claim the narrative of metaphorical or allegorical representation while overlooking or denying opportunities to include and --- perhaps more pertinently --- promote characters that come from real-world minorities and other marginalized groups, though I am still hopeful that'll change sooner rather than later.

This is an interesting point and I just want to throw this out there for consideration. Its not perfect, by any stretch and it is only going by roster not in story prominence. Also I am including "Woman" as a minority group because...
although women are not categorically a minority, the status of women as a subordinate group has led to many social scientists to study them as a minority group. Though women's legal rights and status vary widely across countries, women experience social inequalities relative to men in most societies. - Wikipedia Minority Group
For arguments sake I also bolded those who represent a minority beyond women

The X-Men are hated, feared, and despised collectively by humanity for no other reason than that they are mutants. So what we have..., intended or not, is a book that is about racism, bigotry, and prejudice.
Mutants in the Marvel Universe have always stood as a metaphor for the underclass, the outsiders; they represent the ultimate minority

X-Force
Wolverine
Beast
Jean Grey - Women
Domino - Women
Colossus
Quentin
Sage - Women
Black Tom

Marauders
Kate Pryde - Women
Storm - African / Women*
Emma Frost - Women
Ice Man - LGBTQ
Bishop - Aboriginal Australian
Pyro

X-Factor
Northstar - LGBTQ
Daken - Japanese / LGBTQ
Eye Boy
Aurora - Women
Polaris - Women
Rachel - Women
Prodigy - African American/ LGBTQ

Excalibur
Betsy - Women / LGBTQ (w/Cluster I think this still counts)
Rogue - Women
Gambit
Jubilee - Chinese / Women*
Rictor - Latino / LGBTQ*
Apocalypse - Egyptian

New Mutants (Almost didn't include this because the cast is huge and variable and I quit reading)
Magic - Women
Karma - Vietnamese / LGBTQ / Women*
Wolfsbane - Women
Moonstar - Native American / Women
Cypher
Chamber
Mondo - Samoan
Armor - Japanese / Women
Glob

Hellions
Mr. Sinister
Kwanon - Japanese / Women
Havoc
Empath
Grewcrow/Scalphunter - Native American
Nanny - Women
Orphan Maker
Wild Child

X-Men and Misc.
Cyclops
Cable
Gorgon - Japanese
Forge - Native American
Xavier
Magneto - Jewish
Nightcrawler
Mystique - Women / LGBTQ
Exodus
Shaw
Stepford Cuckoos (5) - Women

I hate listing this because it doesn't tell the whole story, many of these characters haven't really done much however I do think its important to note that the X-Line as a whole is doing better than many think in this regard.

*Updated list to make corrections