Can the Xmen still be a metaphor for discrimination when pretty much all theirs

[Hizashi]

I think the thing that bothered me with the mutant hate was how wide spread it was. Like 99 percent of the humans I have seen in the comics, (Random crowd, government etc..) Not only hated the mutants to what seemed like an unreasonable degree and were perfectly okay with the mass murder of mutants. Like I dont think Jane housewife in Idaho would really really feel strongly about mutants. Yet it was always they are a threat lets kill them all. Granted it wasnt all the time but there were times it was just so over the top.

I mean the every day people in New York forming mobs to go after mutants. An issue I read with a kid in Indiana who turned out to be a mutant and all the people he has known his whole life and family chasing him down and trying to kill him. Its just too much at times.

I’ve been an advocate for more sympathetic human characters in the X-books, I even posited a multi-faceted approach to the mutant issue in the unpopular opinions thread (I think, it might’ve been another thread).

[The Kid]

It can still be one but I think it's a very bad one. Stories like Falcon Captain America and Luke Cage have captured the same metaphor and did it better than the X-Men ever did. Some of the other posters early in the thread who I'm too lazy to go back and quote put it a lot better than me

[Huntsman Spider]

It can still be one but I think it's a very bad one. Stories like Falcon Captain America and Luke Cage have captured the same metaphor and did it better than the X-Men ever did. Some of the other posters early in the thread who I'm too lazy to go back and quote put it a lot better than me

Because they centered those stories on actual black/minority characters, dealing with the systemic injustices and indignities such characters would face in the real world, only heightened in context of intersection with the superhero genre.

[Grunty]

I’ve been an advocate for more sympathetic human characters in the X-books, I even posited a multi-faceted approach to the mutant issue in the unpopular opinions thread (I think, it might’ve been another thread).

It's quite weird how HOX/POX seems to imply that all 7.8 billion normal humans on Earth in the marvel universe are apparently just waiting to jump at the chance of trying to eradicate mutants as soon as they gain some sort of ground, without provocation, just so that the "humanity vs mutantkind" narrative can presented as an unavoidable fact.

Similar that Sentinels are presented as the primary weapons of "mankind" against mutants, disregarding that they are weapon platforms only created and/or employed by secret organizations, super villains or clandestine parts of the US government. With the Days of Future Past story even revolving around the Sentinels having taken over the US and going to war with the rest of mankind who obviously didn't build giant AI controlled killer robots.
If the technology necessary to create Sentinels would be aviable to every nation on earth, they would surely not use it to build giant expensive killer robots that do a lot of colleteral damage to their own cities and have a tendency to try to enslave humanity, only to kill a few people born with super powers.
They would use it to boost their economies, advanced medical technology and improve their regular military forces.

Yet Hox/Pox puts these derpy big purple slaps of metal at the center of "humanities" attempts at fighting mutants.

But then again, there is a reason i don't fully believe Moira X's story.

[The tall man]

Because they centered those stories on actual black/minority characters, dealing with the systemic injustices and indignities such characters would face in the real world, only heightened in context of intersection with the superhero genre.

So then what's the point of the X-men and their mutant metaphor if you can tell actually stories of bigotry, racism and oppression with actually minorities(Blacks, LGBTQ, ect)? Can you really tell a story of black men like Blue Marvel or Sam Wilson experiencing racism then turn around and say Emma Frost goes through the same ordeal? Its wholly ridiculous on it's face, but some will argue it's exactly the same or that Emma and the rest are far worse off.

About the widespread mutant hate, I also think its way overdone. X-writers would have you believe that every human in the MU is a rabid raging mutant hater. A single mom working two jobs to provide for her family doesn't give a crap about mutants when she has to keep a roof over her family's head and put food on the table. Improvised people in third world countries who have literally nothing doesn't think or care about mutants when they are struggling to simply survive to the next day. But the x-verse wants you to think that all humans are evil and out to exterminate mutants. While at the same time pushing the belief that all mutants are innocent and pure and just want live in peace and make the world a better place. Honestly some would have you believe that mutants would never harm a fly or do anything bad. There is no nuance at all in the x-books, it's all about extremes, good mutants fighting to survive and evil humans seeking to exterminate them; that's it.

[Omega Alpha]

It's quite weird how HOX/POX seems to imply that all 7.8 billion normal humans on Earth in the marvel universe are apparently just waiting to jump at the chance of trying to eradicate mutants as soon as they gain some sort of ground, without provocation,

Yeah, no, it doesn't.

[Kisinith]

It's quite weird how HOX/POX seems to imply that all 7.8 billion normal humans on Earth in the marvel universe are apparently just waiting to jump at the chance of trying to eradicate mutants as soon as they gain some sort of ground, without provocation, just so that the "humanity vs mutantkind" narrative can presented as an unavoidable fact.

Actually it doesn't, They've highlighted the opposition sure, because its a major narrative point. However it's also highlighted all the support among normal people. In HoX/PoX China was shown to be eager to work with the mutants for the potential gain of the mutant drugs. In Marauders, you have the CIA analyst who's opinions change over the course of the data pages and the pro-mutant human cultists (not necessarily "good" but not hostile to mutants). In X-Men You have many of the governments shown as non-hostile but legitimately wary in the data pages. In X-Force it shows that many regular humans work alongside the mutants in the various Xavier companies and to assist in the distribution of Krakoan Drugs. It also shows the ongoing collaboration between nations in the functions Xavier goes to, and in the nation Beast accidentally fubared. In Excalibur Betsy and Wisdom began working with the UK government.

The issue wasn't that every or even most humans are against mutants, it is that many of the most "influential humans" have been against mutants and have been using that influence to drive nations and national debate. This was brought up by Magneto in his Davos speech and how Orchis was shown to have been made up of members from all of the various secret society/organizations of the MU (Shield/Sword, AIM, Hydra etc..).

Similar that Sentinels are presented as the primary weapons of "mankind" against mutants, disregarding that they are weapon platforms only created and/or employed by secret organizations, super villains or clandestine parts of the US government. With the Days of Future Past story even revolving around the Sentinels having taken over the US and going to war with the rest of mankind who obviously didn't build giant AI controlled killer robots.
If the technology necessary to create Sentinels would be aviable to every nation on earth, they would surely not use it to build giant expensive killer robots that do a lot of colleteral damage to their own cities and have a tendency to try to enslave humanity, only to kill a few people born with super powers.
They would use it to boost their economies, advanced medical technology and improve their regular military forces.

Yet Hox/Pox puts these derpy big purple slaps of metal at the center of "humanities" attempts at fighting mutants.

But then again, there is a reason i don't fully believe Moira X's story.

Again, not quite right, the sentinels themselves aren't successful against the mutants. What was presented in the life Moira had where she lived into the distant future was that they bought the anti-mutant humans time to further refine their weapons and themselves. Sentinels bought years, Nimrods then bought decades etc. etc.

[Hizashi]

It's quite weird how HOX/POX seems to imply that all 7.8 billion normal humans on Earth in the marvel universe are apparently just waiting to jump at the chance of trying to eradicate mutants as soon as they gain some sort of ground, without provocation, just so that the "humanity vs mutantkind" narrative can presented as an unavoidable fact.

Similar that Sentinels are presented as the primary weapons of "mankind" against mutants, disregarding that they are weapon platforms only created and/or employed by secret organizations, super villains or clandestine parts of the US government. With the Days of Future Past story even revolving around the Sentinels having taken over the US and going to war with the rest of mankind who obviously didn't build giant AI controlled killer robots.
If the technology necessary to create Sentinels would be aviable to every nation on earth, they would surely not use it to build giant expensive killer robots that do a lot of colleteral damage to their own cities and have a tendency to try to enslave humanity, only to kill a few people born with super powers.
They would use it to boost their economies, advanced medical technology and improve their regular military forces.

Yet Hox/Pox puts these derpy big purple slaps of metal at the center of "humanities" attempts at fighting mutants.

But then again, there is a reason i don't fully believe Moira X's story.

Well, I actively want to avoid that interpretation, but it seems more like an inevitable conflict than something that humanity as a whole is actively pursuing in the current status quo.

[Hizashi]

So then what's the point of the X-men and their mutant metaphor if you can tell actually stories of bigotry, racism and oppression with actually minorities(Blacks, LGBTQ, ect)? Can you really tell a story of black men like Blue Marvel or Sam Wilson experiencing racism then turn around and say Emma Frost goes through the same ordeal? Its wholly ridiculous on it's face, but some will argue it's exactly the same or that Emma and the rest are far worse off.

About the widespread mutant hate, I also think its way overdone. X-writers would have you believe that every human in the MU is a rabid raging mutant hater. A single mom working two jobs to provide for her family doesn't give a crap about mutants when she has to keep a roof over her family's head and put food on the table. Improvised people in third world countries who have literally nothing doesn't think or care about mutants when they are struggling to simply survive to the next day. But the x-verse wants you to think that all humans are evil and out to exterminate mutants. While at the same time pushing the belief that all mutants are innocent and pure and just want live in peace and make the world a better place. Honestly some would have you believe that mutants would never harm a fly or do anything bad. There is no nuance at all in the x-books, it's all about extremes, good mutants fighting to survive and evil humans seeking to exterminate them; that's it.

A comic book that deals squarely or primarily with racial bigotry existing is not a reason for the X-Men to discard the minority metaphor. Obviously Emma Frost isn't dealing with racism but she is dealing with bigotry.

I agree wholeheartedly with your second point, I've been saying this.

[Kingdom X]

Yeah I feel like the X-Men writers need to have a long conversation about WHY the metaphor still exists. Originally I assumed it was there because it was difficult for writers to tell stories about discrimination during that time period.

Now that other comics can openly depict LGBTQ characters and discuss these issues, what role does the metaphor play? Either the writers need to step up their game by adding more nuance to the metaphor by also highlighting real minorities or they need to just drop it. Like so many people have mentioned the X-Men really thrive in sci-fi/ fantasy stories so they certainly don’t need the metaphor if nobody is doing justice to the topic.

[skyvolt2000]

So then what's the point of the X-men and their mutant metaphor if you can tell actually stories of bigotry, racism and oppression with actually minorities(Blacks, LGBTQ, ect)? Can you really tell a story of black men like Blue Marvel or Sam Wilson experiencing racism then turn around and say Emma Frost goes through the same ordeal? Its wholly ridiculous on it's face, but some will argue it's exactly the same or that Emma and the rest are far worse off.

What Emma (and others) would deal with in those terms will differ from what Sam or Cage or Miles would deal with.

There are different levels of it to fit whatever agenda one has.

Emma would NEVER face the level of hate Sam Wilson or Cage or Synch or Alex Wilder would get.

She would face it but a water down version of it.

Look at Star Wars-for as much toxic crap we saw-Daisy Riley did not get the abuse John Boyega got. Both were hated by certain parts of fandom but John (along with Kelly) was the face of the abuse.

[Huntsman Spider]

So then what's the point of the X-men and their mutant metaphor if you can tell actually stories of bigotry, racism and oppression with actually minorities(Blacks, LGBTQ, ect)? Can you really tell a story of black men like Blue Marvel or Sam Wilson experiencing racism then turn around and say Emma Frost goes through the same ordeal? Its wholly ridiculous on it's face, but some will argue it's exactly the same or that Emma and the rest are far worse off.

About the widespread mutant hate, I also think its way overdone. X-writers would have you believe that every human in the MU is a rabid raging mutant hater. A single mom working two jobs to provide for her family doesn't give a crap about mutants when she has to keep a roof over her family's head and put food on the table. Improvised people in third world countries who have literally nothing doesn't think or care about mutants when they are struggling to simply survive to the next day. But the x-verse wants you to think that all humans are evil and out to exterminate mutants. While at the same time pushing the belief that all mutants are innocent and pure and just want live in peace and make the world a better place. Honestly some would have you believe that mutants would never harm a fly or do anything bad. There is no nuance at all in the x-books, it's all about extremes, good mutants fighting to survive and evil humans seeking to exterminate them; that's it.

To your first paragraph, perhaps. Given Blue Marvel's backstory of having to retire as a superhero decades back when it was revealed he was actually a black man, to assuage the fears of white Americans about a black man who was all but invincible to conventional weapons and possessed both immense power and immense intelligence, as well as Sam Wilson's struggle to achieve justice and prove his worth to a country that largely seemed to think that as a black man, he wasn't the "right" representative for them . . . yeah, those are stories that could be explored further in a superhero universe like Marvel's. At best, you're seen as just "not good enough to hang with" if you're not someone from the majority or dominant population, and at worst, you're seen as a threat, as innately dangerous just for existing as you are. Compound that with actual superpowers, and then . . .

For your second paragraph, I agree it should be somewhat more nuanced than that, insofar as the humans we tend to see most are the ones who are frothing genocidal bigots, but I've come to think, as per real-world discourse and history on the subject of bigotry and where it leads, that maybe the real issue is instead the humans who are mostly indifferent or even "neutral" to the mutant plight. In that respect, it's also an issue that all we seem to see from nonmutants, humans or superhumans alike, that aren't so overtly hostile to mutants is that aforementioned indifference or neutrality in the face of the constant threat mutants experience from the genocidal bigots, especially if those bigots are in positions of power that enable them to enforce their bigotry. In a nutshell, to paraphrase people wiser than me, "Those who are neutral in situations of injustice and oppression, by default, choose the side of the unjust and the oppressor."

Yeah I feel like the X-Men writers need to have a long conversation about WHY the metaphor still exists. Originally I assumed it was there because it was difficult for writers to tell stories about discrimination during that time period.

Now that other comics can openly depict LGBTQ characters and discuss these issues, what role does the metaphor play? Either the writers need to step up their game by adding more nuance to the metaphor by also highlighting real minorities or they need to just drop it. Like so many people have mentioned the X-Men really thrive in sci-fi/ fantasy stories so they certainly don’t need the metaphor if nobody is doing justice to the topic.

Generally agreed, but the metaphor is kind of baked into the X-Men's narrative identity, so the best thing to do would be to get smarter and savvier with it, ideally including creators that can tell these kinds of stories more insightfully and critically, maybe even by tackling the dissonance between the metaphor and the usual representatives of that metaphor upfront.

[babyblob]

Here is a question I have been thinking about. Why do the Xmen need to represent discrimination at this point? As has been pointed out there are POC featured in other comics, there are gay characters. So why does the Xmen need to be a metaphor for anything at this point? I can see back int he day when you couldnt feature POC or gay characters heavy. but now you can. Wouldnt it be better for these topics to be approached in those books rather then trying to force a metaphor down someone's throat when it may not apply anymore?

You guys have all done a great job in this thread so I am hoping for a good answer on this.

[Grunty]

Here is a question I have been thinking about. Why do the Xmen need to represent discrimination at this point? As has been pointed out there are POC featured in other comics, there are gay characters. So why does the Xmen need to be a metaphor for anything at this point? I can see back in the day when you couldnt feature POC or gay characters heavy. but now you can. Wouldnt it be better for these topics to be approached in those books rather then trying to force a metaphor down someone's throat when it may not apply anymore?

It could be argued that the advantage of the mutant metaphor is that it creates a common ground for readers of all kinds to sympathize with situations designed to resemble real world issues of various groups suffering from intollerance, phobia and exclusion, which they themself might not be part of.

Essentialy creating a fictional basis from which such problems become understandable even to those who could themself not relate to it.

Of course this short-sells the ability of many readers to be able to understand and relate to such issues, even without a super natural metaphor, but it still offers a potentialy narrative tool for those who can't.

So while at times the mutant metaphor is really clunky and seems to include so many different aspects which can lead to contradicting itself, it still has it's uses.

[Devaishwarya]

"Sworn to protect a world that Fears and Hates them" is really all that speaks to the discrimination trope of the X-Men and is pretty general by today's sensibilities.

It's left up to the (many and varied) writers to interpret that tag-line as they see fit. Some have embraced it. Some have briefly touched on it. Most have ignored it. The editors and writers aren't obligated to write ONLY discrimination stories simply because mutants are seen/treated as the minority in the MU.
Throughout its published history...most of the major events and story arcs (with the obvious exception of Extinction Agenda) have not been directly based on or written about minority discrimination.

While that tag-line is important to the X-Men franchise in an historical sense...it's no longer the be-all/end-all of the X-men MO. (One can argue that it The X-Men has outgrown it...or at the very least moved beyond it).