Can the Xmen still be a metaphor for discrimination when pretty much all theirs

[Killerbee911]

Incoming rant

I think already I have said in threads how I would approach the X-men franchise and hate. The X-men would be loved, Mutants would be hated. Mutants in general would dislike the X-men because they don't experience the same issues as regular mutants. If you are confused by the X-men being loved just think Alabama college football team. The X-men should be neutral faction in the mutant and human hate equation with them receiving just enough hate to remind it sucks for mutants but just enough love to make you think that someday mutants and humans can live together. The X-men will come off a little uncle tomish because to accomplish their goal it means picking the system over the movement. X-men is goal is changing the system from with in the system.

Finally the universe tells two big lies

1. Registering mutants is some evil act. Let me introduce you The Selective Service System

The Selective Service System (SSS) is an independent agency of the United States government that maintains information on those potentially subject to military conscription (i.e. the draft). All male U.S. citizens (and male immigrant non-citizens) who are between the ages of 18 and 26 are required by law to have registered within 30 days of their 18th birthdays.Registration with Selective Service is required for various federal programs and benefits, including the Free Application for Federal Student Aid (FAFSA), student loans and Pell Grants, job training, federal employment, and naturalization

Yup that is right all US males have to register into a system.

2. They would be a mutant power classification system something like

Class A- Deadly Powers
Class B-Non safe powers
Class C- Unable to control powers

That completely changes the dynamic of how you talk about Mutants. All those comments where someone goes "Mutants are walking weapons" it changes to "Class A are walking weapons" which means there is whole population of mutants who aren't included in the "OMG you should be scared of them debate" . In universe the discussion of cure becomes a whole lot more complicated where you can argue that whole group of mutants should have their powers removed/restricted for the general safety of everyone and in normal setting everyone stupidly goes along with anticure/anti restriction stance because it means the remove of all of their powers but in this set up you would have mutants who are in no danger of their safe powers being removed.

The X-men could be some really interesting scifi fantasy that covers eugenics,discrimination, classicism in superhero setting but instead we get lowest common denominator stuff because to tell "the hate and fear" thing but to do so they are trying to brute force it. The X-men is much better franchise when the Morlocks are the feared and The Brotherhood is the hated. And the X-men are some where in the middle being superheroes

end rant

[Metal Sphere]

That would be a much better approach than what we have now. That leaves so much space for nuance and character friction just based on really simple character vectors (integrates with the system + Class A vs someone against the system + Class C, for example).

[Striderblack01]

Finally the universe tells two big lies

1. Registering mutants is some evil act. Let me introduce you The Selective Service System

2. They would be a mutant power classification system something like

Class A- Deadly Powers
Class B-Non safe powers
Class C- Unable to control powers

That completely changes the dynamic of how you talk about Mutants. All those comments where someone goes "Mutants are walking weapons" it changes to "Class A are walking weapons" which means there is whole population of mutants who aren't included in the "OMG you should be scared of them debate" . In universe the discussion of cure becomes a whole lot more complicated where you can argue that whole group of mutants should have their powers removed/restricted for the general safety of everyone and in normal setting everyone stupidly goes along with anticure/anti restriction stance because it means the remove of all of their powers but in this set up you would have mutants who are in no danger of their safe powers being removed.

The X-men could be some really interesting scifi fantasy that covers eugenics,discrimination, classicism in superhero setting but instead we get lowest common denominator stuff because to tell "the hate and fear" thing but to do so they are trying to brute force it. The X-men is much better franchise when the Morlocks are the feared and The Brotherhood is the hated. And the X-men are some where in the middle being superheroes

end rant

I think this is a good post.

But I disagree with it.

1. Selective Service may be a thing, but do you really think Mutants would trust governments with a registry?
The same governments that pass anti-mutant legislation, cast harsher judgments on mutants, and fund Sentinels programs?
Just look at how people reacted to the Census this year when Tiny Hands wanted to include extra questions about immigration status.
Magneto was right about this. Registration is how it starts.

2. Hard-baking a class system into the mutant metaphor would become too unwieldly.
Right now, the metaphor is vague enough that any writer can use it. It's also vague enough for some readers to become frustrated by it.
And that is by design. It's both a bug and a feature. That said, writers can talk about class and race as it stands now - without any classification systems.

I also don't think that most racist humans would differentiate between mutant classes, so the underlying premise of the class systems isn't compelling.
They would just paint all mutants as terrorists...I mean Class A's.

[Hizashi]

To me that opens the question which is worse. A mutant who can control the mind of someone and tell them to jump off a bridge and they do it or a human that is so indept at manipulation and a bully that they tell someone to jump off a bridge and they do? And i wonder which would happen more. one telepath vs. thousands of manipulative human bullies.

Definitely the former, all autonomy is stripped from the victim. With the latter, there’s a chance that someone could intervene in some way, with the latter any intervention would just lead to them being added to the itinerary for bridge jumping.

Honestly, telepaths present an actual concrete moral issue that I don’t think the X-books have adequately dealt with.

[ClanAskani]

The X-men could be some really interesting scifi fantasy that covers eugenics,discrimination, classicism in superhero setting but instead we get lowest common denominator stuff because to tell "the hate and fear" thing but to do so they are trying to brute force it. The X-men is much better franchise when the Morlocks are the feared and The Brotherhood is the hated. And the X-men are some where in the middle being superheroes

I agree, but I like the idea of the X-Men being forced into being superheroes rather than this being only a choice of say "with great power comes great responsibility" type of thing. They are forced into fighting either to show that mutants can be trusted, for good PR or to actually defend mutants. It's not out of service to others, but service to mutantkind. Maybe some feel they should make the world a better place with their powers but many may just want to live their lives but can't since the world won't let them just live in peace.

Far more metaphors could be explored that fall into more of sci-fi - like how much of the rights of a small group of people need to be taken away to protect society or how much control the government should have. These aren't necessarily discriminations or racism.

Where having a diverse group of mutants with different backgrounds and experiences is important is how they respond to this type of situation. Magneto as a Holocaust survivor is going to respond differently than Warren does.

[Kingdom X]

I agree, but I like the idea of the X-Men being forced into being superheroes rather than this being only a choice of say "with great power comes great responsibility" type of thing. They are forced into fighting either to show that mutants can be trusted, for good PR or to actually defend mutants. It's not out of service to others, but service to mutantkind. Maybe some feel they should make the world a better place with their powers but many may just want to live their lives but can't since the world won't let them just live in peace.

Far more metaphors could be explored that fall into more of sci-fi - like how much of the rights of a small group of people need to be taken away to protect society or how much control the government should have. These aren't necessarily discriminations or racism.

Where having a diverse group of mutants with different backgrounds and experiences is important is how they respond to this type of situation. Magneto as a Holocaust survivor is going to respond differently than Warren does.

Yeah I really like that distinction. Especially because conflict could arise between members who legitimately like being superheroes and others who’d rather be left along but have a moral imperative to improve things for mutantkind.

[Lapsus]

Normal humans can hate mutants for ordinary mundane reasons. For example you train hard to complete and excel at athletics, you give everything and then your competitor is a mutant with enhanced physical abilities and no need train who dominates you without breaking a sweat. Or maybe a mutant with the ability to manipulate pheromones decides to seduce your loving/faithful spouse just because. Or perhaps you are going for a promotion at work, you are qualified and earned it but a mutant telepath coworker manipulates the boss to get the job instead. Those are only a few of the numerous ways someone can come to hate mutants( they feel wronged). Now maybe they should only hate the specific mutant who wronged them but that hate can grow to include all. Like has been said, mutants are just like ordinary humans with all the negative emotions they possess. They can be selffish, petty, vindictive, callous, hateful, deceitful, greedy and on and on. If mutants existed in the real world of course most would use their abilities for their own personal benefit, gain and advantage( its human nature). So that's how I view human hatred towards mutants in the MU. Not on the macro level where its genocidal giant killer robots (way over the top). But on the micro level where its personal, this one specific mutant wronged me, they ruined my life and I'm powerless to do anything about it so i hate them. But this is fantasy comics so we need over the top, we need the killer robots and the widespread anti mutant hysteria and the genocidal programs. We need big bad enemies for our heroes to fight.

Mutants used to be banned from competition if they have a huge physical advantage, it makes sense, as unfair as it is for the Mutant.
In decimation aftermath a young ex-mutant was happy to lose his powers because he now can compete.

The other two scenarios cant be measured for a normal human, you dont know that the other guy is using pheromones and you don know that you co-worker is telepath.

[Grunty]

Mutants used to be banned from competition if they have a huge physical advantage, it makes sense, as unfair as it is for the Mutant.
In decimation aftermath a young ex-mutant was happy to lose his powers because he now can compete.

It's not like this isn't a potential issue between mutants too.

Imagine two mutants with the same physical build and athletic ability going on a 200 meter sprint. Only one has the power to speed up time for himself by half and the other has the ability to turn sour milk into fresh one.
As long as their powers aren't used, both have an equal chance at winning, since it all comes down to how well they can push their bodies to their natural limits. But the moment one uses their super powers, it's a no contest.

I remember a baseball game between the X-men and Generation X where Skin eventualy decided to use his powers, followed by some of the x-men doing the same and it all ends in a giant pile of bodies with Monet sitting on top. Which highlights how these heros can only play a fair game if they all hold back willingly.

So the only way there can be a fair competition physical or mental between mutants is if both sides don't use their powers. But that would contradict the standard argument of "be proud of your powers" and "don't let them hold you back from using your rightfull powers". Not to forget that some can't switch off their powers at all.
A mutant olympics would be a logistic nightmare to organize i can imagine.

That's a fundamental issue with the X-gene based super powers that doesn't seem to be explored much but should sooner or later come up in something like a mutant nation. That the X-gene creates such a clear unfairness and class difference between mutants, which is much more firm than the differences between normal humans.

Of course in the real world there are obvious performance differences between humans too, which make some mentaly slow and other geniuses, some weak bodied and other high performance athlets. But on average most humans have the same physical and mental foundation that creates a relative broad level of fairness between them. It's the environment, upbringing, culture and so on which creates the major differences that lead to social levels.

But with mutants all bets are off, because something in their bodies decided to play the lottery with them. Which also just adds on top of allready existing layers of unfairness. Sure a person born in poverty could gain great powers and climb the ladder in a mutant society with them, but then they will still compete with those who have the same powers but also social, cultural or economic advantages. Likewise someone who has these advantage will never fall as far as those who are allready at the bottom with their weak powers and low social status.

So overall, there is just as much potential for hate and discrimination between mutants as there is between normal humans and mutants.
But then again it also means you might see a bunch of weak powered mutants sitting together and drinking beer with normal humans complaining about how high powered mutants stealing their jobs or making their lives so uncertain.

[Alan2099]

As long as their powers aren't used, both have an equal chance at winning, since it all comes down to how well they can push their bodies to their natural limits. But the moment one uses their super powers, it's a no contest.

I remember a baseball game between the X-men and Generation X where Skin eventualy decided to use his powers, followed by some of the x-men doing the same and it all ends in a giant pile of bodies with Monet sitting on top. Which highlights how these heros can only play a fair game if they all hold back willingly.

I remember a basketball game the X-men were playing where they declared no-powers, but Gambit was dominating on the court and they remembered that his powers included heightened natural speed and agility so the others started to use their more obvious powers as well.

[ShaunN]

I don't think that the X-Men has ever really worked as a metaphor for discrimination for another, major and related reason to the one the OP asked: the reason is that they are too powerful. The reality is that many mutants are, in objective reality, incredibly powerful and very, very dangerous to other living beings (humans). Under those conditions, a lot of the fear directed against mutants is entirely justified. In the case of most groups who are objects of discrimination, they are usually scapegoats or the fear directed against them is ill-founded and meant to justify deeper oppression.

The latest group of X-Men movies illustrate this most effectively. If you look at X-Men: First Class, the central premise there was that mutants were behind the Cuban Missile Crisis and were trying to cause a nuclear war that would cause the creation of more mutants while also destroying humanity. And they did all of this without most humans knowing they existed. In that context, making the central point of mutants the idea they are discriminated against is, at best, extremely limited and missing the elephant in the room. In other movies (Apocalypse) the real threat that mutants pose to the world is, again, made evident.

The same is true, of course, in the regular comics, where "evil mutants" have been plaguing the world from the beginning. When you can destroy a city and have every intention of doing so, you really are a threat that needs to be contained. The argument that mutants' actions are caused by discrimination from humans is worth pursuing, but the reality of genuine physical power and real physical threat really complicates this entire narrative and always has.

The fact that the mutants we are most familiar with have always lived lives without economic hardship also complicates their ability to claim discrimination. It's pretty hard to claim you are an oppressed minority when you are living in a mansion. The fact that so many of the mutants can "pass" without anyone knowing what they are and, yes, the fact that so many of them are white and don't have to deal with the other, real-world problems of being singled out because of skin color -all of these are complications that could and certainly should be dealt with more effectively in the many decades this series has been around. At this point, as the OP points out, Krakoa is a racist ethno-state led by a cabal of mostly white people who are already saying to the entire world of humanity -the vast majority of whom are not white - that "we are your gods."

Yeah, there is a lot here that doesn't work or is really kind of creepy.

[Zelena]

So overall, there is just as much potential for hate and discrimination between mutants as there is between normal humans and mutants.
But then again it also means you might see a bunch of weak powered mutants sitting together and drinking beer with normal humans complaining about how high powered mutants stealing their jobs or making their lives so uncertain.

In fanfictions, where the authors are doing a much better job at showing the relationships between the mutants and the humans, some stories show that the psychics are a discriminated group inside the group of mutants: being discriminated yourself doesn’t prevent you from discriminating against other people.

I may add that there has never been a comics called “The Morlocks” despite them being a much better metaphor for discrimination.

So for me X-men have never really been a metaphor for discrimination: they had odd adventures, meeting strange people, finding themselves in curious situations, facing uncanny threats… all fantasy, nothing too serious… it wasn’t a pretentious comic back then…

[Kingdom X]

In fanfictions, where the authors are doing a much better job at showing the relationships between the mutants and the humans, some stories show that the psychics are a discriminated group inside the group of mutants: being discriminated yourself doesn’t prevent you from discriminating against other people.

I may add that there has never been a comics called “The Morlocks” despite them being a much better metaphor for discrimination.

So for me X-men have never really been a metaphor for discrimination: they had odd adventures, meeting strange people, finding themselves in curious situations, facing uncanny threats… all fantasy, nothing too serious… it wasn’t a pretentious comic back then…

That’s really interesting! I kinda feel like the psychics would end up being elitists who discriminate against others lol

I also agree that the more fantastical elements of the franchise should be at the forefront, with some social commentary in the background (to avoid being preachy).

[Lapsus]

Incoming rant

I think already I have said in threads how I would approach the X-men franchise and hate. The X-men would be loved, Mutants would be hated. Mutants in general would dislike the X-men because they don't experience the same issues as regular mutants. If you are confused by the X-men being loved just think Alabama college football team. The X-men should be neutral faction in the mutant and human hate equation with them receiving just enough hate to remind it sucks for mutants but just enough love to make you think that someday mutants and humans can live together. The X-men will come off a little uncle tomish because to accomplish their goal it means picking the system over the movement. X-men is goal is changing the system from with in the system.

Finally the universe tells two big lies

1. Registering mutants is some evil act. Let me introduce you The Selective Service System



Yup that is right all US males have to register into a system.

2. They would be a mutant power classification system something like

Class A- Deadly Powers
Class B-Non safe powers
Class C- Unable to control powers

That completely changes the dynamic of how you talk about Mutants. All those comments where someone goes "Mutants are walking weapons" it changes to "Class A are walking weapons" which means there is whole population of mutants who aren't included in the "OMG you should be scared of them debate" . In universe the discussion of cure becomes a whole lot more complicated where you can argue that whole group of mutants should have their powers removed/restricted for the general safety of everyone and in normal setting everyone stupidly goes along with anticure/anti restriction stance because it means the remove of all of their powers but in this set up you would have mutants who are in no danger of their safe powers being removed.

The X-men could be some really interesting scifi fantasy that covers eugenics,discrimination, classicism in superhero setting but instead we get lowest common denominator stuff because to tell "the hate and fear" thing but to do so they are trying to brute force it. The X-men is much better franchise when the Morlocks are the feared and The Brotherhood is the hated. And the X-men are some where in the middle being superheroes

end rant

i forgot to say it, 100% agree with all of this.

In my opinion humanity should never be an insane mass of hate towards the mutants, it should be hypocrite, i think it works better with how humans behave in the real world.

You cant simply sell the idea that in a world were the avengers and the fantastic four are beloved, Rogue would be treated exactly like Glob, is not realistic.

And just because some X-Men are well liked or accepted as the future of mankind, it doesnt mean that there is no issues or that the X-Men will do nothing to help other Mutants.

[BroHomo]

i forgot to say it, 100% agree with all of this.

Well registering with the SSA has a lot of benefits that the Mutant Registration Act doesnt.

In my opinion humanity should never be an insane mass of hate towards the mutants, it should be hypocrite, i think it works better with how humans behave in the real world.

Huh? You dont think there's an insane amount of hate3 towards certain groups of people in the real world??

iYou cant simply sell the idea that in a world were the avengers and the fantastic four are beloved, Rogue would be treated exactly like Glob, is not realistic.

How is it any less realistic to have Rogue and Glob treated the same than it is for Black Panther and Captain AMerica? Where are the calls for more appearances of 'THe nuanced racist' outside of the XMen books???

[Huntsman Spider]

I think a major issue with the X-Men/mutants as a metaphor for real-world discrimination against marginalized and disenfranchised groups is intersectionality. I mean, the X-Men/mutants are hated and feared by human society just for being mutants, but the most prominent X-characters are often those who would otherwise be more socially privileged or advantaged --- straight, gender-conforming, white, at least middle-class, and/or male --- if not for being mutants, so the metaphor can (and sometimes does) fall flat if it doesn't (or won't) engage with how or why people can be disenfranchised in real life and juxtapose that with the mutant struggle. One example of this could be a mutant who was born of African descent and then manifested mutant powers, having to deal with a society already conditioned to be hostile to the very idea of their existence well before potentially becoming a living weapon of mass destruction, either of which could easily exacerbate the other. It would be kind of a "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" situation --- do ordinary people fear this particular mutant for being a mutant with dangerous powers, or would they have feared them already for being black and therefore perceiving them as innately dangerous even before the powers come into play?