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  1. #16
    Mighty Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Yeah, ideally once they're both in a place where it feels like they're in it for the long haul. Once they're in a position where they're comfortable saying the words "I love you", there's no more excuse. You can't expect someone to stay with you if they don't even know who you are.

  2. #17
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    Agreed. Marriage/physical-intimacy-on-a-serious-level is the point where he has to tell her... or anyone else he’s going to be with, honestly.
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  3. #18
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    Yeah, ideally once they're both in a place where it feels like they're in it for the long haul. Once they're in a position where they're comfortable saying the words "I love you", there's no more excuse. You can't expect someone to stay with you if they don't even know who you are.
    Yeah. It's a big step so obviously he's worried, but she's not someone he just met on tinder or something. They've worked together a long time and trust each other before you get into him pining for her. He knows he can trust her so there's absolutely no reason once they become a couple that he can justify not telling her anymore.

    Furthermore, her reaction should be either anger and later forgiveness if she didn't know (please) or relief that he finally told her because she knew but couldn't stick the evidence. I'd do the latter because making the triangle a game where she knows but wants to prove it and beat him, even if she will never publish it, is the only way I can see updating it and removing the toxic elements. And it eliminates everyone calling her stupid for the glasses because she gets close enough to kiss the guy.
    Last edited by Robanker; 09-27-2020 at 05:32 PM.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Yeah. It's a big step so obviously he's worried, but she's not someone he just met on tinder or something. They've worked together a long time and trust each other before you get into him pining for her. He knows he can trust her so there's absolutely no reason once they become a couple that he can justify not telling her anymore.

    Furthermore, her reaction should be either anger and later forgiveness if she didn't know (please) or relief that he finally told her because she knew but couldn't stick the evidence. I'd do the latter because making the triangle a game where she knows but wants to prove it and beat him, even if she will never publish it, is the only way I can see updating it and removing the toxic elements. And it eliminates everyone calling her stupid for the glasses because she gets close enough to kiss the guy.
    I think that you're assuming too much about them and their relationship. Mostly in the sense that they're not spoiled by fourth wall knowledge. A lot of stuff that's obvious to us could still be a mystery to them.

  5. #20
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    This is the absolute latest for me as well.
    Same for me. If he still doesn't want to tell her by then he's kind of being a scumbag.
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  6. #21
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    I think that you're assuming too much about them and their relationship. Mostly in the sense that they're not spoiled by fourth wall knowledge. A lot of stuff that's obvious to us could still be a mystery to them.
    Here's the thing. It's the conceit that nobody can figure it out, but there's only so much disbelief you can suspend. She gets right into his face and spends several hours with him a day on top of being the world's most celebrated and greatest investigative journalist. On some level, she has to suspect him and usually does. Having her know and make it a game removes the gaslighting element to the triangle by bringing her in on it and helps her characterization as being really damn good at her job. It solves more problems than it doesn't, so I prefer it.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Here's the thing. It's the conceit that nobody can figure it out, but there's only so much disbelief you can suspend. She gets right into his face and spends several hours with him a day on top of being the world's most celebrated and greatest investigative journalist. On some level, she has to suspect him and usually does. Having her know and make it a game removes the gaslighting element to the triangle by bringing her in on it and helps her characterization as being really damn good at her job. It solves more problems than it doesn't, so I prefer it.
    See, to me Superman is the main character in the story so if it's a "how dumb is Lois" vs "How can anyone fall for that disguise", my preference is on making the identity more secure. Clark works with top level investigative jopurnalists and even they are fooled. If you have a problem with that then you are not understanding the inability of the medium to show us how effective his techniques are.

    As for when he tells her, it's a hard thing to figure. I think everyone accepts he doesn't tell her until he knows he can trust her. The problem is just where is the line where he knows her that well and isn't already past the point he should already have told her? Imagine you have a secret as big as Superman's. Maybe you are connected to a famous crime (victim, family member of the criminal) Or you have some rare potentially fatal medical condition. You don't want that to be how people think of you, so you keep it to yourself. Just when would you feel comfortable telling somebody about it. It's definitely not first date conversation (or second date), but if you waited until you were ready to propose I doubt your significant other would react well.

  8. #23
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    Clark should have issues trusting people with his identity, less of this "secrecy in order to protect them from harm", although there's merit in that. The duality of Supes and Clark has to lie heavily on who he is, how he views himself as these two characters. So when is it the right time to reveal his whole identity, when he's secure in that relationship just as it grows serious and they become intimate (I really don't want them having sex before she knows the truth). If they show the transition from their rivalry to one of absolute trust as their feelings deepen for one another, I think that would be the perfect time to tell the truth. It has to become harder for him to lie to her, not because she's getting to the truth but because he realises this is the woman he wants to spend the rest of his life with and he doesn't want any lie between them.

    Now, there's either one of two ways for her to react. One, she already knew and was just waiting for him to tell her the truth or she's gets mad he lied when she got close to the truth (absolutely nothing like the S/Age gaslighting nonsense) and she grows to understand why he's kept the truth from her, harkening back to his inherent trust issues. As for Jimmy and Perry, I'm okay with the standard explanation to keep them from harm but eventually after a long while, I want him to reveal himself to them, not necessarily the whole world. The people closest to Clark should know the truth not just his parents, Lois or superhero buddies. Clark/Superman's character should benefit from not keeping secrets from those he loves. The disguise clearly works and we can keep that but the dichotomy of the two personas is something that needs to be mined deeper than just a superficial superhero disguise. He IS Clark and he IS Superman, write him as such.
    Last edited by rpmaluki; 09-28-2020 at 12:54 AM.

  9. #24
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    See, to me Superman is the main character in the story so if it's a "how dumb is Lois" vs "How can anyone fall for that disguise", my preference is on making the identity more secure. Clark works with top level investigative jopurnalists and even they are fooled. If you have a problem with that then you are not understanding the inability of the medium to show us how effective his techniques are.

    As for when he tells her, it's a hard thing to figure. I think everyone accepts he doesn't tell her until he knows he can trust her. The problem is just where is the line where he knows her that well and isn't already past the point he should already have told her? Imagine you have a secret as big as Superman's. Maybe you are connected to a famous crime (victim, family member of the criminal) Or you have some rare potentially fatal medical condition. You don't want that to be how people think of you, so you keep it to yourself. Just when would you feel comfortable telling somebody about it. It's definitely not first date conversation (or second date), but if you waited until you were ready to propose I doubt your significant other would react well.
    You can try and infer all you want, at the end of the day it's a paper and ink medium and at most he puts some glasses on and slouches. You don't get the nuance or audio work because it can't be translated effectively. It's never going to be as good as people who want it to be convincing think it is. I'm not bothered by it because I get that's the conceit, but that doesn't change some elements of the disguise and triangle are actually very shitty of Clark to keep up, so getting Lois in on it absolves a lot of the awful elements while not changing how it actually plays out. It's just that instead of Lois thinking "golly, I'm sure he's Superman" it's "goddammit I know he's Superman but I can't prove that the Clark everyone saw in the office was a double."

    Very little has to change, it ups Lois's credibility and removes the concept that Lois was sold a false bill of goods but it's totally okay because the guy lying to her was the other guy she was interested in, so it's totally okay that he's been gaslighting her for the last few months/years. Yeah, sorry but it's not as cute as we were sold as kids. He outright lies and leads her on as Superman only to pine after her as Clark and for what, to prove "she loves me for me?" Superman is also him. It's not a good look for the guy. Besides, in my personal headcanon (and an outline I wrote for if I ever got to do a mini about Superman), he's trying to find the way to tell her during his proposal and she just removes the glasses and asks isn't it time he told her, which helps him out of that bind and gives her the overall win in the game.

    So she knows. It works out a lot more cleanly, the people meming on her lose some ammunition and it puts to bed a lot of the problems inherent in the love triangle. Hell, right now they're content to say Catwoman figured it out a long time ago but Lois can't? It's just nonsense. If anyone figures out who Superman is, it's Lois Lane. She would find out before Batman. I firmly believe that. Having her slap herself in shock when he drops the glasses and opens his shirt in is downright a disservice to her in 2020.

  10. #25
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    I’m curious Robanker, in your take would Lois still call him out on the lies Clark has said to protect his ID, or the ways he’s tried to gaslight her into thinking she was crazy for suspecting Clark and Superman are one and the same, or would she just be very matter of fact “of course you are I always knew”?

    I’m a big fan of the idea that Clark eventually has to face the music and own up to the fact that he’s acted very dickishly over the years in regards to his dual life. I 100% am in favor of Clark getting a Daily Planet job with an exclusive Superman interview precisely because it’s unethical. You want to show that Superman is one of us, make him relatable? Instead of having him pose like Jesus, show that he decided to basically pull the Superman equivalent of lying on his resume because damnit he really wanted that Daily Planet job and journalism is a cutthroat business so what’s the harm? Doesn’t he deserve a break, he saved the city after all. Stuff like that shows Superman is flawed, that he’s human, but ultimately he needs to face consequences for stuff like that, and having Lois essentially blow up in his face and call him out on all the stuff he did instead of throwing herself into his arms or sobbing at his feet is an excellent way to basically force Clark to experience consequences. He didn’t expect her to react like that because he didn’t think it was anything serious.

    This is all a long-winded way of saying I really love Jeff Loveness’ Glasses story and while I’m perfectly ok with Lois figuring it out on her own, Lois reacting to Clark’s reveal in a way he doesn’t expect is also a valid reason to keep her in the dark until he comes out imo. Curious what you think.

  11. #26
    Extraordinary Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Here's the thing. It's the conceit that nobody can figure it out, but there's only so much disbelief you can suspend. She gets right into his face and spends several hours with him a day on top of being the world's most celebrated and greatest investigative journalist. On some level, she has to suspect him and usually does. Having her know and make it a game removes the gaslighting element to the triangle by bringing her in on it and helps her characterization as being really damn good at her job. It solves more problems than it doesn't, so I prefer it.
    That would only a problem if the clark kent disguise was supposed to be seen as some ingenious disguise in the first place. It wasn't. Lois can get into his face all day for years and still not recognise clark and superman are not the same. Why? Cause its absurd and that's the point.

    Superman winking to his on screen counter part. Do you think this is realistic?if people want the disguise to continue as serious business. Either change the disguise enough that it is tangible and cannot be caught with even todays technology . Or else be stuck with lois is dumb or the disguise is dumb complaints from the readers.

    This works cause clark persona likes to lay low (like doc savage) and pretend to be weak, pathetic,.. Etc. He is weak to the point that he is a coward. A man who doesn't protect what's right or helps the woman he loves when she needs it.Superman on the other hand is an absolute hero, showman, debonair,... Etc. He fights for what's right. He is the true clark kent self. But, even then he is flawed. He lies, is reckless, a bit violent... Etc. This doesn't make lois the bad one. She actually chooses what's right for her.A flawed hero over a fake nice guy.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 09-28-2020 at 02:04 AM.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    You can try and infer all you want, at the end of the day it's a paper and ink medium and at most he puts some glasses on and slouches. You don't get the nuance or audio work because it can't be translated effectively. It's never going to be as good as people who want it to be convincing think it is. I'm not bothered by it because I get that's the conceit, but that doesn't change some elements of the disguise and triangle are actually very shitty of Clark to keep up, so getting Lois in on it absolves a lot of the awful elements while not changing how it actually plays out. It's just that instead of Lois thinking "golly, I'm sure he's Superman" it's "goddammit I know he's Superman but I can't prove that the Clark everyone saw in the office was a double."

    Very little has to change, it ups Lois's credibility and removes the concept that Lois was sold a false bill of goods but it's totally okay because the guy lying to her was the other guy she was interested in, so it's totally okay that he's been gaslighting her for the last few months/years. Yeah, sorry but it's not as cute as we were sold as kids. He outright lies and leads her on as Superman only to pine after her as Clark and for what, to prove "she loves me for me?" Superman is also him. It's not a good look for the guy. Besides, in my personal headcanon (and an outline I wrote for if I ever got to do a mini about Superman), he's trying to find the way to tell her during his proposal and she just removes the glasses and asks isn't it time he told her, which helps him out of that bind and gives her the overall win in the game.

    So she knows. It works out a lot more cleanly, the people meming on her lose some ammunition and it puts to bed a lot of the problems inherent in the love triangle. Hell, right now they're content to say Catwoman figured it out a long time ago but Lois can't? It's just nonsense. If anyone figures out who Superman is, it's Lois Lane. She would find out before Batman. I firmly believe that. Having her slap herself in shock when he drops the glasses and opens his shirt in is downright a disservice to her in 2020.
    This. This is why I think WB won't push for the long standing traditional triangle for two going forward. They'll do it for a short stint but the bulk of their story will always involve Lois knowing (from much early on) without making her look stupid. It's folly to think the general audience is going to just accept Clark lying to Lois until he proposes/marries her just because he did it for a majority of his 80 years of print. Today's audience won't fall for that without negatively branding both characters, Lois for not figuring it out and Clark for being a liar and possibly gaslighting her to keep his secret, no matter how he justifies it. Sure he's a character in the superhero business where SIs are the norm, you can sell that to children and they'd swallow it up but without a mask, glasses aren't considered enough of a disguise to a mature audience in today's age. We are now at the stage where live action has a bit more influence on print than the other way round. The story will no longer be Clark keeping his secret (for a literal lifetime) but what happens after.

  13. #28
    Extraordinary Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    I have to ask, what do people want from superman? A guy who doesn't have anything in his closet? No baggages, whatsoever? The glasses was never that good even by the standard of 30's.sheesh!do people actually think humans became smart after the 90's or something?Today's audience actually watch a movie about a buttnaked hulk acting like a toddler. A guy who talks to you directly from on screen. A "alien" tree that says "i am groot" all the time.Why is a guy making a joke out of his superhero disguise and duality seen as something hard to comprehend?It's basically parodying zorro in a way.At this point if people don't get the joke then Maybe, we should go for this.

    I would love for clark to just say "i am superman" and be done with this nonsense.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 09-28-2020 at 02:24 AM.

  14. #29
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    Around the time that Clark is absolutely positive that Lois is the one he wants to spend the rest of his days with. Any sooner than that undermines the significance of the reveal imo. The love triangle aspect does complicate things but others in this thread have already offered ideas on how to possibly fix it.

  15. #30
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    Zorro is set in a particular period, unless you do the same with Superman, that won't work for a modern Superman. The Donner movies played up the disguise and a majority of the super fans now look at that with a lot of disdain. General movie goers frown on the amnesia kiss for what it could represent in a "Me Too" era. You cannot play up the disguise as a joke because it makes Clark a dick, especially if he goes through questionable lengths to hide his identity by tricking those around him, especially Lois. He goes from someone you can trust as an audience, to the very last, no matter how you spin it is a bad look for him. Today's audeince is not the same for the 70s, it's not the same that which mass consumed his superdickery comics decades ago. Add nuance, character beats to his secret identity for today's audience, anything less or jokey will fall flat.

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