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  1. #31
    Extraordinary Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpmaluki View Post
    Zorro is set in a particular period, unless you do the same with Superman, that won't work for a modern Superman. You cannot play up the disguise as a joke because it makes Clark a dick, especially if he goes through questionable lengths to hide his identity by tricking those around him, especially Lois.
    I don't particularly have a problem if triangle exists or not. This is about really understanding what it was about when it existed. Parody means making a joke out of something that was serious by exaggerating it's features. You know, poking fun of it. Sometimes in a good way like this instance and one punch man. Sometimes it's just making fun and mockery like boys.

    Moreover, Clark persona is a dick, wimp... Etc.The actual clark would need to evaluate whether a person is trustworthy. Especially, in a world of xenophobia. He is vigilante, an outlaw... Etc.So, fairly sure that implies he isn't exactly nicest guy around in the first place. Moreover, these comics had barely anything to do with 70s Superdickery in which lois was treated as the bad one for rejecting clark, an idiot for not recognising him, superficial for going after superman... Etc.
    Batman still does these questionable things. Nobody minds. Yet, when superman does it all hell breaks lose. Sheesh! People have taken the christ imagery to heart.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 09-28-2020 at 03:11 AM.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I don't particularly have a problem if triangle exists or not. This is about really understanding what it was about when it existed. Parody means making a joke out of something that was serious by exaggerating it's features. You know, poking fun of it. Sometimes in a good way like this instance and one punch man. Sometimes it's just making fun and mockery like boys.

    Moreover, Clark persona is a dick, wimp... Etc.The actual clark would need to evaluate whether a person is trustworthy. Especially, in a world of xenophobia. He is vigilante, an outlaw... Etc.So, fairly sure that implies he isn't exactly nicest guy around in the first place. Moreover, these comics had barely anything to do with 70s Superdickery in which lois was treated as the bad one for rejecting clark, an idiot for not recognising him, superficial for going after superman... Etc.
    Batman still does these questionable things. Nobody minds. Yet, when superman does it all hell breaks lose. Sheesh! People have taken the christ imagery to heart.
    I think Superman is past the point of parody, unless you go with a specific medium and have the tone well defined specifically for that project, otherwise most readers and the audience expect something a bit more on the serious side. WW took some inspiration from the Donner movie and they picked elements that the modern audience readily accepted, there's a way of being light hearted without it being too abrasive. You have to do a lot more than just settling for him being a plain dick and/or wimp. There has to be more than those carbon cut outs that are outdated. Have nuance. And if you're you're going to bring xenophobia into the story, you need to tread accordingly, joking about will not work.

    If Clark can't figure out whether or not he trusts Lois after working with her for years and being in some sort of relationship with her, then cut the cord and move on.

    Batman is not Superman. After eight decades we all know he can get away with things Clark cannot, for better or for worse and vice versa. They've already tried to superimpose certain bat elements with ZS's Superman and that wasn't well received. It's much better to work with what's established for the character, build on that and flesh that out than try and make Superman into someone he isn't just because it's working a for different character that isn't Superman in outlook, practice and values etc.

  3. #33
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    Clark's costume is not stupid, the reader simply knows that Clark is Superman and that is why he sees him stupid, but mostly he is Superman and everything Superman does is stupid, like the famous underpants, all the heroes had them on the outside, But the joke is only with Superman, Clark's costume works, because there are studies that show that glasses are enough to hide from people who know you, in Spain a thief hid only with glasses and even his neighbors watching him on television (known him since childhood) they did not recognize him, if you add the personality, that Superman is a god (because a god would pretend to be human, and if he did, because Clark) it is normal for the costume to work, without forgetting that a mask wouldn't be much better. Even with real world technology you can recognize a person wearing a mask, DC universe technology could make it a lot easier.

  4. #34
    Mighty Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    My personal opinion is that when Clark decides that he want ot marry Lois and build a life with her, he should tell the truth to her.

    But I notice that some people think that Clark should tell her before they have sex, my question is, if that is the moment, should he tell it to every woman he had sex with? Because if he did that, either a lot of women would know his secret or he would have almost no sex before Lois, maybe just with Lana.

    I remember some similar discussion when American Alien was coming out and Clark slept with Barbara Minerva without tell her he was an alien. If we start from the principle that he should tell he is Superman and an alien before he have sex with someone, I think that before Lois he would not see a lot of action, and the only women he would have been with would be Lana and Lori Lemaris, maybe?

    Also, would it be ethical of him, to sleep with a woman as Superman without telling her he is Clark and a human? Because in that case he could be with Maxima for example without her knowing his secret identity. Maybe some other female superheroes?

    Anyway, Lois should know before he proposed to her at least, sooner. While I don't think Clark should tell his secret to every woman he slept together, to Lois he would probably tell before.

  5. #35
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ra-El View Post
    My personal opinion is that when Clark decides that he want ot marry Lois and build a life with her, he should tell the truth to her.

    But I notice that some people think that Clark should tell her before they have sex, my question is, if that is the moment, should he tell it to every woman he had sex with? Because if he did that, either a lot of women would know his secret or he would have almost no sex before Lois, maybe just with Lana.

    I remember some similar discussion when American Alien was coming out and Clark slept with Barbara Minerva without tell her he was an alien. If we start from the principle that he should tell he is Superman and an alien before he have sex with someone, I think that before Lois he would not see a lot of action, and the only women he would have been with would be Lana and Lori Lemaris, maybe?

    Also, would it be ethical of him, to sleep with a woman as Superman without telling her he is Clark and a human? Because in that case he could be with Maxima for example without her knowing his secret identity. Maybe some other female superheroes?

    Anyway, Lois should know before he proposed to her at least, sooner. While I don't think Clark should tell his secret to every woman he slept together, to Lois he would probably tell before.
    Ethically, he definitely should unless it's a super casual no-strings-attached thing (more likely in the Superman identity) in either of his identities.

  6. #36
    Mighty Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Their second child.

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    If we're talking about pure ethics, then the moment he starts talking about Superman as though that's a totally different guy he waited too long.

  8. #38
    Extraordinary Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpmaluki View Post
    I think Superman is past the point of parody, unless you go with a specific medium and have the tone well defined specifically for that project, otherwise most readers and the audience expect something a bit more on the serious side. WW took some inspiration from the Donner movie and they picked elements that the modern audience readily accepted, there's a way of being light hearted without it being too abrasive. You have to do a lot more than just settling for him being a plain dick and/or wimp. There has to be more than those carbon cut outs that are outdated. Have nuance. And if you're you're going to bring xenophobia into the story, you need to tread accordingly, joking about will not work.

    If Clark can't figure out whether or not he trusts Lois after working with her for years and being in some sort of relationship with her, then cut the cord and move on.

    Batman is not Superman. After eight decades we all know he can get away with things Clark cannot, for better or for worse and vice versa. They've already tried to superimpose certain bat elements with ZS's Superman and that wasn't well received. It's much better to work with what's established for the character, build on that and flesh that out than try and make Superman into someone he isn't just because it's working a for different character that isn't Superman in outlook, practice and values etc.
    Xenophobia wasn't a joke. The thing about clark was he was asked to lay low for his strength due to his alien nature before his parents died. I said the sercet id itself was a parody of zorro's.Zorro was the one who started the romance triangle bit. Superman took the concepts, made it his own and poked fun of it. Something that pokes fun can be taken serious. Heck! Mcu is built on that premise of subversion. Finally, carbon cutout? What? Ww didn't use any of the secret identity thing.Donner movie tried to play of the disguise as something serious and not absurd to begin. The only time superman acknowledge the audience in donner movies was when he was flying. That subtle. Clark used to be pretty damn straightforward with that. As said, an outlaw alien would be complicated. He wasn't meant to be a role model that people have made Superman out of. Just because something is complicated does not mean he is bad. Lois was cynical city girl.Lois was very critical of Clark's cowardice. Imagine if she gets to know he was putting on an act.Even if she doesn't react badly. She was reporter who was very driven with her career. If she felt superman and clark are being unethical with his dual identity. She would out him. As said, outlaw alien status wouldn't do him any good.He would be hunted down.

    Clark works with a lot of people. Doesn't mean he owes everyone his secrets.There is such a thing as privacy. Just because you know someone doesn't mean you give them your deepest darkest secrets.

    Dude! Batman and superman have certain elements in common. Why do people not get that is beyond? It doesn't take snyder to "batmanise" superman. It's not even batmanisation.Batman was inspired by Superman . They share the same of origin points. They are pulp characters that became superheroes.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Ethically, he definitely should unless it's a super casual no-strings-attached thing (more likely in the Superman identity) in either of his identities.
    clark's secret endangers his friends and family, that means he would ethically have to talk to them first. It means that every time Clark meets a woman, he would have to talk to his friends and his parents, it would be incredible to read a comic about Superman talking to his mother, about a woman he wants to know deeply.

  10. #40
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Before they become intimate and more serious about the relationship. Clark can't have sex with a woman he doesn't trust..

    Wait, maybe Clark can have sex with other women. I mean, why not? He's not a saint, but if he really cares about a woman, he needs to tell her his real identity if things get serious between them. I guess this includes Lois too. It just feels really dishonest to tell someone you love her, have sex and still not trust her enough with your secrets.
    Last edited by stargazer01; 09-28-2020 at 08:09 AM.

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    I think it's hard to say when it crosses the line into being inappropriate for him not to tell her without knowing the context of the relationship. I don't think he needs to disclose his secret to every woman he sleeps with, particularly in the more modern variations of the story. Sex comes well before a serious committed relationship for a lot of people so I don't see that as a bright line. But in the context of Lois and the trajectory of their relationship, it probably should come somewhere after they are exclusive and serious, well before any engagement. After she meets his parents but before or around the time they move in together. And it really should be something she at least strongly suspects and the trust he places in her should be a major step for him. I think one of the only points of Lana is to set up the trust. I think he tells Lana early on and she can't deal with it and that makes him reluctant to take that step with others. So taking that step with Lois is presented as growth for him.

    I mean, the triangle for two really is skeevy in a modern context so it's something that needs to be resolved relatively early in any telling. If we are talking a series, I'd say some point in the second season, probably as the stinger for the finale. If we are talking movies, I think that's probably the after credit scene. Comics, you could probably put it somewhere in Year 3-4. I mean it just doesn't play as well anymore moreso even than like 10 years ago. And I think there can really be zero gaslighting or if there is it has to be played as being the shitty thing it is in real life.

    And it's got to be one or the other. If he's with her as Clark, he can't be with her as Superman at the same time or vice versa.
    Last edited by Yoda; 09-28-2020 at 01:12 PM.

  12. #42
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Well it kinda depends on what school of ethics you want to follow. Kant ethics would answer differently than utilitarian ethics yknow? By Kant "what if everyone did this?" standards, Clark likely doesn't have to share the secret until he and Lois are serious about their relationship and a life-long bond/marriage is the obvious destination in both their minds. By utilitarian "does the good outweigh the bad" standards....hell, Clark might not have to tell her at all, given the weight of his responsibilities.

    But it'd be awfully hard to slice this in a way that leaves Clark being 100% ethical regardless of the philosophy you follow; that would require a level of honesty and openness super early on that, frankly, is a huge risk and not how we function in society.

    The absolute latest in my mind? Before proposing, or if you really want to push it, directly afterwards. That's the *latest* he can wait and still be relatively ethical.

    Clark is not required to share his deepest, most carefully guarded secrets with someone he's just started dating. We don't do that, Clark shouldn't be required to either. And this isn't a typical kind of secret, sharing this potentially puts Lois in a whole lot of danger so sharing it too early, with someone you might not be dating in a few weeks, is legit irresponsible.

    Sharing the secret before they have sex doesn't seem necessary to me either. At this point in his life Clark knows that his biology doesn't pose a danger to his partners; he's had an active sex life and Lana, Lori, and whoever else were never negatively impacted by Clark being Kryptonian. This does raise the question of whether Lois should know her partner is an alien....but in the Super-verse this is essentially just a more fantastical version of "my ancestors were Scottish." We don't feel the need to share our family origins with the people we sleep with so I'm giving Clark a pass here. If the DCU, or Lois specifically, didn't take aliens and magic and all the rest in such stride this might be more of an issue (it would be in the real world) but the Super-verse's internal logic is different from our's. Hell, the Daily Planet has had aliens as interns; being from another world is not the huge, massive deal it would be in reality.

    So I'd say that, once the couple are definitely looking long term and assuming a life-long relationship will come of it, where most people start sharing their deepest secrets, that's the time when Clark should open up. However, because this is Lois and she has such a history of chasing Superman, I'm tentatively willing to let Clark slide until immediately *after* he proposes. He wants to make sure it's *him* that Lois is marrying and that she doesn't say yes because it's Superman; that's arguably an ethical choice on his part as he's trying to ensure their union is built on *them* and not the cape. Depending on the details of the continuity that might be more or less of a consideration though, it depends on how the "triangle for two" plays out and how hot Lois was for Superman before beginning a relationship with Clark. As much as Lois has a right to know she's marrying an alien, Clark has a right to know that he's marrying someone who loves him for him and not because of his public persona.

    *If* Clark waits until he's proposed, he cannot wait to share this secret though. He needs to share it immediately after she says yes; before they tell anyone about the engagement, certainly before they start making any wedding plans. It has to be "Will you?" "Yes!" "Cool! Now sit down, before I put this ring on your finger you gotta know something and it's a big deal."

    Whether that's still ethical is a bit dodgy, but like I said, there's considerations and elements in play that mean Clark can't be 100% ethical regardless of his choices.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  13. #43
    Fantastic Member magha_regulus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Well it kinda depends on what school of ethics you want to follow. Kant ethics would answer differently than utilitarian ethics yknow? By Kant "what if everyone did this?" standards, Clark likely doesn't have to share the secret until he and Lois are serious about their relationship and a life-long bond/marriage is the obvious destination in both their minds. By utilitarian "does the good outweigh the bad" standards....hell, Clark might not have to tell her at all, given the weight of his responsibilities.

    But it'd be awfully hard to slice this in a way that leaves Clark being 100% ethical regardless of the philosophy you follow; that would require a level of honesty and openness super early on that, frankly, is a huge risk and not how we function in society.

    The absolute latest in my mind? Before proposing, or if you really want to push it, directly afterwards. That's the *latest* he can wait and still be relatively ethical.

    Clark is not required to share his deepest, most carefully guarded secrets with someone he's just started dating. We don't do that, Clark shouldn't be required to either. And this isn't a typical kind of secret, sharing this potentially puts Lois in a whole lot of danger so sharing it too early, with someone you might not be dating in a few weeks, is legit irresponsible.

    Sharing the secret before they have sex doesn't seem necessary to me either. At this point in his life Clark knows that his biology doesn't pose a danger to his partners; he's had an active sex life and Lana, Lori, and whoever else were never negatively impacted by Clark being Kryptonian. This does raise the question of whether Lois should know her partner is an alien....but in the Super-verse this is essentially just a more fantastical version of "my ancestors were Scottish." We don't feel the need to share our family origins with the people we sleep with so I'm giving Clark a pass here. If the DCU, or Lois specifically, didn't take aliens and magic and all the rest in such stride this might be more of an issue (it would be in the real world) but the Super-verse's internal logic is different from our's. Hell, the Daily Planet has had aliens as interns; being from another world is not the huge, massive deal it would be in reality.

    So I'd say that, once the couple are definitely looking long term and assuming a life-long relationship will come of it, where most people start sharing their deepest secrets, that's the time when Clark should open up. However, because this is Lois and she has such a history of chasing Superman, I'm tentatively willing to let Clark slide until immediately *after* he proposes. He wants to make sure it's *him* that Lois is marrying and that she doesn't say yes because it's Superman; that's arguably an ethical choice on his part as he's trying to ensure their union is built on *them* and not the cape. Depending on the details of the continuity that might be more or less of a consideration though, it depends on how the "triangle for two" plays out and how hot Lois was for Superman before beginning a relationship with Clark. As much as Lois has a right to know she's marrying an alien, Clark has a right to know that he's marrying someone who loves him for him and not because of his public persona.

    *If* Clark waits until he's proposed, he cannot wait to share this secret though. He needs to share it immediately after she says yes; before they tell anyone about the engagement, certainly before they start making any wedding plans. It has to be "Will you?" "Yes!" "Cool! Now sit down, before I put this ring on your finger you gotta know something and it's a big deal."

    Whether that's still ethical is a bit dodgy, but like I said, there's considerations and elements in play that mean Clark can't be 100% ethical regardless of his choices.
    I definitely feel like it's best for Lois to find out on her own. She should definitely work for it. But once she finds out and agrees not to publish the story I think he should open up with more. Lois should be Superman's partner in crime-fighting and their relationship should grow based off of that.

  14. #44
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by magha_regulus View Post
    I definitely feel like it's best for Lois to find out on her own. She should definitely work for it. But once she finds out and agrees not to publish the story I think he should open up with more. Lois should be Superman's partner in crime-fighting and their relationship should grow based off of that.
    In a version where Lois uncovers the secret herself, (and I've always liked that idea) it potentially changes a lot, or nothing, depending on the details. Like, if Lois knows and Clark doesn't know that she knows, his ethical dilemma remains the same; he has to decide when to tell her who he really is. That does add a great ethical debate to Lois' side of things though; how long does she let Clark keep jumping through hoops trying to retain a secret she's already learned? But if the two of them are on the same page and Lois knows the secret and Clark knows that she does, the entire dynamic gets shifted and the OP question is moot.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    I’m curious Robanker, in your take would Lois still call him out on the lies Clark has said to protect his ID, or the ways he’s tried to gaslight her into thinking she was crazy for suspecting Clark and Superman are one and the same, or would she just be very matter of fact “of course you are I always knew”?

    I’m a big fan of the idea that Clark eventually has to face the music and own up to the fact that he’s acted very dickishly over the years in regards to his dual life. I 100% am in favor of Clark getting a Daily Planet job with an exclusive Superman interview precisely because it’s unethical. You want to show that Superman is one of us, make him relatable? Instead of having him pose like Jesus, show that he decided to basically pull the Superman equivalent of lying on his resume because damnit he really wanted that Daily Planet job and journalism is a cutthroat business so what’s the harm? Doesn’t he deserve a break, he saved the city after all. Stuff like that shows Superman is flawed, that he’s human, but ultimately he needs to face consequences for stuff like that, and having Lois essentially blow up in his face and call him out on all the stuff he did instead of throwing herself into his arms or sobbing at his feet is an excellent way to basically force Clark to experience consequences. He didn’t expect her to react like that because he didn’t think it was anything serious.

    This is all a long-winded way of saying I really love Jeff Loveness’ Glasses story and while I’m perfectly ok with Lois figuring it out on her own, Lois reacting to Clark’s reveal in a way he doesn’t expect is also a valid reason to keep her in the dark until he comes out imo. Curious what you think.
    Well she basically figures it out within a few days so she's been trying to stick it to him ever since, so they're both aware she knows, or Clark at least thinks she seriously suspects him, and he continues to keep up the ruse for the reasons he usually does. By knowing he's Superman, she understands if he has to lie about it, even to as close a friend as her, there has to be a good reason... And that's a story she needs to find out. So the game. It never ends and it drives her crazy because he can always have a plausible excuse. I think when she finally pulls the glasses off and tells him it's time to give up, essentially, he comes clean and finishes off with the proposal so all her Christmases came early. She's not mad because she has already had time to process it, but she is generally pretty happy that a) she won, that's most important b) he finally was able to let go of that burden and c) oh yeah the love of her life proposed so that's just swell.

    If she's known the entire time but they're still friendly and dating, it's disingenuousness for her to get mad about the reveal. It's probably the one thing my take really loses, but honestly the toxic elements of the triangle really do have to go so I'm okay with it and it makes Lois come across as a bit unreasonable because time and again Superheroes are validated for not revealing their IDs, so readers will always sympathize with their hero despite her being justifiably pissed off.

    Everyone else can still get mad at Clark for lying, but he should have one person in his corner as support the whole time and if he's going to be marrying Lois, I feel like she should be that person, especially if she was on his heels and never bought the ruse. But at first? Yeah, I think she's not happy about him and may have even wanted to expose him, but over time she got it. The journalist would absolutely call him out on his headlines once she accepted the proposal, though. If all he wrote wete puff pieces she may have let it slide, but... She can't let him get away completely Scott Free.

    That's the solution which works best for me and the one I'd use if I ever got to write the mini I've had in my pocket.
    Last edited by Robanker; 09-28-2020 at 01:46 PM.

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