Wonder GIrl (Cassie Sandsmark) Appreciation Thread!

[Frank]

I don't actually know that that was Byrne's motivation, but it definitely does happen. Mark Waid, in a post on ThrillBent, says this (and the whole post is worth reading):

Moreover, DC (under the guidance of publisher Jenette Kahn and exec Paul Levitz) drew up a creator-equity agreement for the talent, granting a small but significant percentage of all revenue on new characters created by writers and artists. Marvel later followed suit with something similar, and while sales (and royalty thresholds) have moved up and down over the years, that’s pretty much the way the system’s worked ever since.

By way of example, let’s take Impulse, a character I co-created with artist Mike Wieringo. Mike and I signed a contract that grants us a small percentage of all revenue DC might earn off Impulse action figures, merchandise, guest-starring roles on Young Justice or Smallville, what have you. It’s hardly buy-a-boat money; I get maybe a couple hundred bucks off of every action figure (because of the equity deal) and a few cents off every trade paperback collection or digital sale (because of the royalty agreement), but it adds up and I do see something, enough for a nice meal every few months. And that’s the deal I agreed to at the time, and that’s fine. But that’s the limit of DC’s legal, contractual obligation to us.

I don't know for certain that Byrne gets revenue off of Cassie, but I'm guessing he does.

[CRaymond]

I don't know for certain that Byrne gets revenue off of Cassie, but I'm guessing he does.

This is getting into IP law, but how much of the character would have to change in order to deny him "creator" revenue?

The nu52 Cassandra is an INCREDIBLY different character, but I'm sure in the interests of the court, she's a blond teenager with both relevant names: Cassandra Sandsmark and Wonder Girl.

[Frank]

I'd be interested in finding out the answer to that, too! Since it's not a massive amount of money that the creators get, the companies may not see challenging the revenue as worth their trouble. But there must be a point at which, if a character becomes unrecognizable, that they'd stop, especially if the nigh-unrecognizable character pulls in far more bank than it did in its original form. I also don't know how this works with legacy characters. Kamala Khan is a completely new character...except in super-hero name. Does G. Willow Wilson get royalties? I sure hope so. Tanya Spears is an excellent character who inherited the name...Power Girl. She's not the breakout character that Kamala is, but does Levitz get royalties for her appearances in Deathstroke?

Since this only started in the 80s, I would also guess that it will become more of an issue in the future, as characters change. Had these types of contracts that include royalty agreements existed in the 60s, would O'Neil still have gotten royalties for the alien Dr. Cyber that Busiek reshaped in Power Company? I remember reading that he had to get permission from the WW office to use her, even though she hadn't been used post-COIE.

Anyway, part of it probably depends on how specific the contracts are.

[Outside_85]

This is getting into IP law, but how much of the character would have to change in order to deny him "creator" revenue?

The nu52 Cassandra is an INCREDIBLY different character, but I'm sure in the interests of the court, she's a blond teenager with both relevant names: Cassandra Sandsmark and Wonder Girl.

I doubt Byrne is getting anything from being Cassandra's creator unless it was actually in his contract or if DC is feeling generous. Normally writers and artists are freelancers, and mostly when they work for just about anyone other than Image, they don't retain rights over anything they create while employed by Marvel or DC since they created them for that company. And mostly the companies haven't been all that noble about honoring their old employees with $$$.

And with the mention of Image, remember that it took quite a bit of time before Neil Gaiman was able to wrest Angela, whom he created, from McFarlanes cold dead toy hands and scoot her over to Marvel.

[Frank]

See, I think it's entirely possible it was in his contract. By the time he did WW, Byrne had had a storied career at DC & Marvel, as well as independently, and he was pretty much given carte blanche w/ WW, further adding that he could only afford to do it if he were writer, artist, inker, and letterer. He was still highly productive in comics at the time, and DC knew his tenure would be a significant sales boost for the property. I'd guess he was savvy enough to have that in the contract.

But again, I don't know that for certain. I'm just speculating.

[CRaymond]

I'm just speculating.

The whole remixing the Kapatelis into the Sandsmarks suggests he already understood the chemistry was there, worked and had potential. But he chose to create "new characters" rather than move the Kapatelis to Gateway City... it's very fishy. If it's not something petty, like he thought Julia was too old or he didn't like the name Vanessa, it had to be something more complicated, like money.

[Outside_85]

See, I think it's entirely possible it was in his contract. By the time he did WW, Byrne had had a storied career at DC & Marvel, as well as independently, and he was pretty much given carte blanche w/ WW, further adding that he could only afford to do it if he were writer, artist, inker, and letterer. He was still highly productive in comics at the time, and DC knew his tenure would be a significant sales boost for the property. I'd guess he was savvy enough to have that in the contract.

But again, I don't know that for certain. I'm just speculating.

Allow me to argue that he likely was not that savy, because this has been par of the course for ages with Marvel and DC in particular because they do not want to end up with more creator estates they have to keep shelling money out to in order to stave off them regaining control of characters.

And while Byrne might have been good, a creator is never that good that Marvel or DC cannot replace him or her. Another example is Stan Lee who's had several attempts at regaining some control over the various characters he created for Marvel, and failed.

[sakuyamons]

You've been a member of the forum long enough to recall debates of Diana's origin that use the argument that Zeus "replaces" female-identified individuals as the "source of her power". While I don't agree with the argument, the idea stayed in my head, especially when I compared it to the very obvious and seemingly approved demigoddess character of Cassandra Sandsmark's Wonder Girl. Here's a character of questionable creation* that starts with a very tropey relationship to the source of her superpowers-- which is then upended when we're given a father reveal.

Specifically: Helena Sandsmark, the source of her daughter's access and education on magical artifacts from Greek Myth(of which I'm including Diana of Themyscira herself) is put aside in favor of Cassandra having inherited superheroic powers from her father. What's "interesting" can be debated-- but what can't be is that Helena Sandsmark, an expert in a specific study, is replaced as the gatekeeper of her daughter's heroic journey by a fictional sperm donor. I'm probably going to get points from the claybaby proponents for that, but Diana is a very different case, and not the subject in this thread.

The issue for me is the absence of the ROLE that Helena played in the life of Wonder Girl. If we forego the demigoddess reveal in the case of Cassandra Sandsmark, we're left with a girl who's given the example of Wonder Woman --and intimate access to magical ancient artifacts from Wonder Woman's origin. Rather than being OF the world of time-lost myth, Cassandra is a contemporary adolescent that BORROWS from it, and we learn and quest alongside her. With Helena, she's Green Lantern-like --without her, she's an X-Man. Having magical powers be inherited might be simpler, but it removes the nuance and uniqueness of a girl with a museum full of magical tools.



Once upon a time, my parents hosted an Irish soccer player over a summer to lead a soccer skills development program. He was incredibly skilled, handsome, charismatic, and accumulated the attention of the entire town. I never spoke to him, as I was a complicated middle schooler, and intimidated by his foreign amiability and loads of talent. My brother glommed onto him immediately, as he was younger, simpler, a lot more athletic, and had actual friends. Twenty years later, my brother and I are different people, but that's the set up I'm imagining for Nessie, Cassie, Diana and Julia.

Nessie is more intellectual, sensitive, and has more artistic pursuits, while Cassie is a straight up tomboy. When Julia/Helena invites Diana to live with them, Nessie is jealous of Cassie's seeming overlap with Diana's skills... while Cassie is envious of Nessie's specific identity. Cassie might play with the boys, but Nessie is an award-winning vocalist(foreshadowing Swan's powers). Both girls see Diana as incomparably beautiful and gregarious, but Nessie feels that pain sharper due to her age. Naturally, Diana would spend more time with Cassie.

As they grow up, Nessie leaves home to attend a special school for gifted artists, but ends up meeting Diana's cast of villains, in a manner similar to Jimenez' version of events. Cassie equips her mother's artifacts specifically to save her sister in this version. Julia is torn, as she's lost her eldest daughter to the superheroic world, but realizes Diana's training and the museum's weaponry might be the only thing that would protect her youngest.

Diana's role in all this is heartbreaking. Growing up on Themyscira, she desperately wanted a sister, despite all Amazons being "sisters". In Julia's home, she's given an example of exactly what she always wanted, but sees how her involvement complicates the lives of the entire family.

* Questionable Creation: Do any of you feel Byrne invented the Sandsmarks specifically because he felt Vanessa was too effeminate and weak-willed to take on the intended role of Wonder Girl?

I think that it's "easier" to accept Cassie as a demigoddess/child of Zeus rather with Diana, mainly because Cassie was a fairly new character so retcons are more accepted than for a 75 year old character; I'll admit I haven't read Byrne's run in a long time, but I felt that the way Helena referred to Zeus (that idiot; Zeus) and how the evil guy (can't remember his name) mentioned that Zeus' offspring were known to be arrogant and that's why Cassie's power is limited with Helena, to avoid her to become like Hercules, for the example.

That is some interesting dynamic you got there, it reminds me a bit of Sansa and Arya from game of thrones, would you redeem Vanessa or you would make her a permanent for Cassie? It would also make sense of the Donna/Cassie relationship, if Vanessa and Cassie had beef with Nessie due to her clashing personalities, and Diana is fantastic, but Donna is more approachable than either of them, so Cassie clings into Donna as the sister she "wants" to have.

Also, I had no idea about that! I thought it was just a Byrne thing to reboot things to his "better" version of characters but I do like Cassie more than Vanessa so he doesn't have my reproach on "that"

[marhawkman]

That kinda gets to why I liked the idea of a divine intuition power. It makes her different from WW.

[Agent Z]

That kinda gets to why I liked the idea of a divine intuition power. It makes her different from WW.

Actually I'm pretty sure that's an ability Diana has too.

I was thinking how sad it is that Cassie is the only Wonder who's been the leader of her respective team and DC squandered that.

[CRaymond]

That is some interesting dynamic you got there, it reminds me a bit of Sansa and Arya from game of thrones, would you redeem Vanessa or you would make her a permanent for Cassie? It would also make sense of the Donna/Cassie relationship, if Vanessa and Cassie had beef with Nessie due to her clashing personalities, and Diana is fantastic, but Donna is more approachable than either of them, so Cassie clings into Donna as the sister she "wants" to have.

You know for the entire time I was imagining up the whole Ness & Cass relationship, I was like "this follows a pattern, it's obvious, it's..." and then I couldn't remember WHERE I'd seen the example of older ballerina sister and younger rugby sister. I thought it was sorta like Elsa & Anna, but it was totally Sansa & Arya. I featured my family's example because it was contemporary, included the addition of a sorta-celebrity foreign national, and showed that the trope isn't gendered.

But yeah, I imagine Cass as a contemporary Arya, sans bloodthirst. Helena/Julia is her reluctant Alfred with a warehouse full of magical weapons that she digs up, restores, and displays. I'd poach the Golden Fleece from the Olympian, give her Achilles' full armor, Perseus' sword and sandals, Hades' cloak/hood/helm, etc etc etc

Nessie... I really like the idea of clashing personalities. Maybe she struggles with the onset of BPD, being an ugly duckling and maturing into a beautiful swan might be too much, add to that the stress of being away at school, coupled with Doctor Psycho's slow brainwashing, multiplied by her magical and cyborg transformation(s) has really taken a toll on her sanity. This allows for her to be a recurring villain AND the potential for rehabilitation. She could be susceptible to remote programming and code words like Winter Soldier, she could be cursed to act out on full moons, her physiology might depend on spells or fuels that are exclusively in the pocket of bigger, badder villains. The Swan would as sympathetic as Rucka's Cheetah, but with a fully intended victim status.

[Koriand'r]

I'd love to see Ravager fight Wonder Girl. It seems like an easy win for Cassie but Rose could surprise us all and that would make for a great story. If she ever gets another miniseries, Wonder Girl should branch out to the wider DCU. Supergirl could still be her best friend, but Wonder Girl needs a rival that's not truly a villain, like Rogue's complicated relationship with Carol Danvers. I don't think that's Vanessa but your mileage may vary. Someone like Maxima could work well. Her major villain should be Devastation. She's a good character that's not being used, much like our Cassandra.

[Assam]

I'd love to see Ravager fight Wonder Girl. It seems like an easy win for Cassie but Rose could surprise us all and that would make for a great story.

A brief scuffle or a training session maybe. A real fight? Nah. Rose couldn't even beat the other legacy Cassandra.

Supergirl could still be her best friend

1) When were they EVER "best" friends? 2) I'd rather see her ACTUAL best friends, not just the boys of the YJ4, but Anita and Cissie.

but Wonder Girl needs a rival that's not truly a villain

Cool if you want that, but I'd hardly say it's something she needs.

[Koriand'r]

A brief scuffle or a training session maybe. A real fight? Nah. Rose couldn't even beat the other legacy Cassandra.



1) When were they EVER "best" friends? 2) I'd rather see her ACTUAL best friends, not just the boys of the YJ4, but Anita and Cissie.



Cool if you want that, but I'd hardly say it's something she needs.

1. Are you reading Deathstroke? Rose is not to be underestimated.

2. They were close even before they took down Air Force One together in Amazons Attack.

KARA AND CASSIE.jpg

Cassie-Kara.jpg

SUPERGIRL WONDER GIRL.jpg

3. Anything to make comics more like Real Housewives and I'm there.

[Assam]

1. Are you reading Deathstroke? Rose is not to be underestimated.

I only read the issues with her in Vietnam, having borrowed them from a friend (I refuse to support the book). I know Rose is tough and she could probably score some good hits, but I still don't think she's on Cassie's level.

2.

They were close even before they took down Air Force One together in Amazons Attack.

1) Is Amazons Attack really the story you want to bring up while trying to make a point?
2) Even if they were close, I've seen nothing to suggest they were as close as Cassie was with the YJ gals. (And I'm not just saying this because I LOATHE Kara.)
3) Even if they were the closest of friends, by the time they'd met, Cassie had long been taken over by a bodysnatcher and wasn't even herself.

Also, not part of my point, but in regards to the 2nd image you pointed, thanks for making Boomer Jr. a child murdering psycho so we'd cheer on your silver age lovefest Johns.

3. Anything to make comics more like Real Housewives and I'm there.

LOL Fair enough.