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  1. #61
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    While I still donít feel like heís cracked Diana or her world, this is a way more interesting ďambitious failureĒ for me than say Azzarello on Superman or Johns on Batman are. We rarely if ever have anyone even try to touch on Marstonís stuff. Too weird for most writers. So I appreciate Morrison attempting to grapple with that kind of feminism and bondage that defines Golden Age Wonder Woman.

    Of the Earth One Trinity the WW books have been by far the most entertaining for me. Earth One Superman is pretty banal, itís got some stuff I enjoy but overall itís just kinda meh. Not different enough to stand out and thereís just not enough ambition for me to feel like thereís anything to really explore beneath the surface. Itís like the infamous ad said ďSuperman for the Twilight generationĒ. Earth One Batman is so dumb but itís a fun kind of dumb where Johns either intentionally or unintentionally is doing one of the best deconstructions of Batman Iíve read. Bruce is a complete moron who is in over his head but is just too stubborn or stupid to quit and thatís how he wins. But again not many deeper themes or ideas beyond ďwhat would a realistic Batman really look like?Ē

    Earth One WW though? Thereís a bunch of ideas here, about feminism, fetishism, race, the good and bad of the Golden Age WW Marston created. Itís got stuff like WW saying transwomen are welcome on Themyscaria. In other words itís ambitious in a way the Superman and Batman books arenít. Does Morrison always do a good job handling those themes? No. No he doesnít. Thatís what makes it an ambitious failure in my eyes. Heís not connecting with me the way his Superman and Batman works did, where he made me really fall in love with and gain a deeper appreciation for both of them. But itís entertaining to see him try in a way it isnít with all the tepid runs of the mainline WW book weíve gotten.

  2. #62
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    While I still don’t feel like he’s cracked Diana or her world, this is a way more interesting “ambitious failure” for me than say Azzarello on Superman or Johns on Batman are. We rarely if ever have anyone even try to touch on Marston’s stuff. Too weird for most writers. So I appreciate Morrison attempting to grapple with that kind of feminism and bondage that defines Golden Age Wonder Woman.

    Of the Earth One Trinity the WW books have been by far the most entertaining for me. Earth One Superman is pretty banal, it’s got some stuff I enjoy but overall it’s just kinda meh. Not different enough to stand out and there’s just not enough ambition for me to feel like there’s anything to really explore beneath the surface. It’s like the infamous ad said “Superman for the Twilight generation”. Earth One Batman is so dumb but it’s a fun kind of dumb where Johns either intentionally or unintentionally is doing one of the best deconstructions of Batman I’ve read. Bruce is a complete moron who is in over his head but is just too stubborn or stupid to quit and that’s how he wins. But again not many deeper themes or ideas beyond “what would a realistic Batman really look like?”

    Earth One WW though? There’s a bunch of ideas here, about feminism, fetishism, race, the good and bad of the Golden Age WW Marston created. It’s got stuff like WW saying transwomen are welcome on Themyscaria. In other words it’s ambitious in a way the Superman and Batman books aren’t. Does Morrison always do a good job handling those themes? No. No he doesn’t. That’s what makes it an ambitious failure in my eyes. He’s not connecting with me the way his Superman and Batman works did, where he made me really fall in love with and gain a deeper appreciation for both of them. But it’s entertaining to see him try in a way it isn’t with all the tepid runs of the mainline WW book we’ve gotten.
    I actually feel that his opinions on why WW has rarely worked post Marston are generally dead on even if he himself isnt always the best person to go about engaging with Marstons ideas. But more creators trying it wouldnt be a bad thing.

  3. #63
    Astonishing Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    While I still don’t feel like he’s cracked Diana or her world, this is a way more interesting “ambitious failure” for me than say Azzarello on Superman or Johns on Batman are. We rarely if ever have anyone even try to touch on Marston’s stuff. Too weird for most writers. So I appreciate Morrison attempting to grapple with that kind of feminism and bondage that defines Golden Age Wonder Woman.

    Of the Earth One Trinity the WW books have been by far the most entertaining for me. Earth One Superman is pretty banal, it’s got some stuff I enjoy but overall it’s just kinda meh. Not different enough to stand out and there’s just not enough ambition for me to feel like there’s anything to really explore beneath the surface. It’s like the infamous ad said “Superman for the Twilight generation”. Earth One Batman is so dumb but it’s a fun kind of dumb where Johns either intentionally or unintentionally is doing one of the best deconstructions of Batman I’ve read. Bruce is a complete moron who is in over his head but is just too stubborn or stupid to quit and that’s how he wins. But again not many deeper themes or ideas beyond “what would a realistic Batman really look like?”

    Earth One WW though? There’s a bunch of ideas here, about feminism, fetishism, race, the good and bad of the Golden Age WW Marston created. It’s got stuff like WW saying transwomen are welcome on Themyscaria. In other words it’s ambitious in a way the Superman and Batman books aren’t. Does Morrison always do a good job handling those themes? No. No he doesn’t. That’s what makes it an ambitious failure in my eyes. He’s not connecting with me the way his Superman and Batman works did, where he made me really fall in love with and gain a deeper appreciation for both of them. But it’s entertaining to see him try in a way it isn’t with all the tepid runs of the mainline WW book we’ve gotten.
    Heh, Batman: Earth One I found the most refreshing Bat-book in years honestly and the only time I've cared about Bruce's origin. Though seeing a book where Bruce isn't the best at everything and anything has a lot to do with it

  4. #64
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Yeah, I don't think he's her worst writer or anything but it seems he's more interested in analyzing Marston's ideas or other stuff around Diana than herself. She's not bad, just disappointing in comparison to his work on Superman, Batman, or Green Lantern.
    It a surface-level take, instead of a deep dive into saying something about and with Dianaís character. While as epic and ďmythicĒ a character as Clark or Bruce, Diana is also political at her core and the best writers need to find a way to embrace that in connection to her fantastical world and their storytelling.

    Sheís the modern myth through which to describe human behavior, psychology, and sociology. Her original stories did that and Star Trek is a bit of a successor to that kind of storytelling.

  5. #65
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    I don’t hate Wonder Woman Earth One as a series or anything, but I think I’m just starving for some stories that really showcase Diana and her cast as characters with some action/adventure, twists and turns, surprises, and soap opera elements in them that make it a thrilling read.

    So, I’m comparing it unfairly to what my imagination is yearning for and not necessarily what a particular writer is looking to do.

    One thing I will say is that Morrison and Paquette are the first creative duo in a while to come close to portraying the Amazons, their culture, their fashion, their technology, etc. in a way I find interesting and appealing.

    I like my Amazons portrayed with elements of myth, magic, technology, science fiction, etc. all rolled into one. A stagnant, unchanged-by-time Amazonian society is unendingly boring to me and antithetical to the concept of Wonder Woman and the Amazons.

  6. #66
    Astonishing Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    It a surface-level take, instead of a deep dive into saying something about and with Diana’s character. While as epic and “mythic” a character as Clark or Bruce, Diana is also political at her core and the best writers need to find a way to embrace that in connection to her fantastical world and their storytelling.

    She’s the modern myth through which to describe human behavior, psychology, and sociology. Her original stories did that and Star Trek is a bit of a successor to that kind of storytelling.
    There is some interesting stuff going on, one can debate how well it's done, but yeah maybe this could change with Vol. 3 but for me at least yeah Morrison hasn't really "captured" Diana like he did Clark Kent, Bruce Wayne, or Hal Jordan in his other stuff I mentioned. Or even other earlier WW writers managed to.

  7. #67
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    I do kinda wish this wasn't the last installment and we'd just get a few more volumes that were just big, bright adventures stories.

    I feel supremely ripped off that I'm not getting Morrison's Cheetah and Villainy Inc, but Max Friggin Lord is here. The last volume should really have had Deception, Greed and Conquest as the villains (though maybe it still will).

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Heh, Batman: Earth One I found the most refreshing Bat-book in years honestly and the only time I've cared about Bruce's origin. Though seeing a book where Bruce isn't the best at everything and anything has a lot to do with it
    I think the one interesting idea Johns' Earth One has is having Bruce be related to the Arkhams on his mother's side. I'd like to see that further developed. It would be a neat addition to an adaptation of Morrison's Arkham Asylum if it ever ends up in the movies.

    Beyond that, while Bat-God is obnoxious, Bruce being full blown incompetent is just as bad in the other direction. I'm getting the Gerry Conway Batman volumes, and it's refreshing to see a competent, likeable Batman again that I don't have to have any reservations about liking.

    Two-Face being Harvey's twin sister is also dumb as all get out.

  8. #68
    Astonishing Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I do kinda wish this wasn't the last installment and we'd just get a few more volumes that were just big, bright adventures stories.

    I feel supremely ripped off that I'm not getting Morrison's Cheetah and Villainy Inc, but Max Friggin Lord is here. The last volume should really have had Deception, Greed and Conquest as the villains (though maybe it still will).
    Especially since you think Morrison would be all over digging up long-forgotten Pre-Crisis characters. Though I'd be surprised if Max didn't turn out to be a new Duke of Deception or Ares/Mars in a human avatar.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I think the one interesting idea Johns' Earth One has is having Bruce be related to the Arkhams on his mother's side. I'd like to see that further developed. It would be a neat addition to an adaptation of Morrison's Arkham Asylum if it ever ends up in the movies.

    Beyond that, while Bat-God is obnoxious, Bruce being full blown incompetent is just as bad in the other direction. I'm getting the Gerry Conway Batman volumes, and it's refreshing to see a competent, likeable Batman again that I don't have to have any reservations about liking.

    Two-Face being Harvey's twin sister is also dumb as all get out.
    Fair enough, the Two-Face stuff was indeed dumb but I can't say I found him particularly incompetent aside from stuff in the first volume.

  9. #69
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Especially since you think Morrison would be all over digging up long-forgotten Pre-Crisis characters. Though I'd be surprised if Max didn't turn out to be a new Duke of Deception or Ares/Mars in a human avatar.
    I'm still thinking Max being Deception has high odds of happening.

    The focus being on pre-Crisis characters makes Artemis's appearance here kind of odd. I would think she would be named Orana, since we have Nubia filling Philippus's standard role.

  10. #70
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    While I still don’t feel like he’s cracked Diana or her world, this is a way more interesting “ambitious failure” for me than say Azzarello on Superman or Johns on Batman are. We rarely if ever have anyone even try to touch on Marston’s stuff. Too weird for most writers. So I appreciate Morrison attempting to grapple with that kind of feminism and bondage that defines Golden Age Wonder Woman.
    I'm not sure I'd stretch Morrison's Wonder Woman Earth One so far as "ambitious failure". My read is that rather that Morrison totally failed to understand where Marston came from, or how feminist theory has developed in the intervening 70 years. The result is that rather than updating or exploring Marston's ideas, he mocks them at an extremely superficial level. Morrison also doesn't get some important elements of the critique he does use.

    From a cis perspective, it looks progressive that he includes a trans woman in the comic (even if only for a single frame) and has Diana says that "there is room for everyone". But from the perspective of an oppressed minority, that answer rings hollow. It implies that their oppressors are also welcome. It doesn't tell how the Amazons or the Amazon code will relate to trans women

    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    It a surface-level take, instead of a deep dive into saying something about and with Diana’s character. While as epic and “mythic” a character as Clark or Bruce, Diana is also political at her core and the best writers need to find a way to embrace that in connection to her fantastical world and their storytelling.

    She’s the modern myth through which to describe human behavior, psychology, and sociology. Her original stories did that and Star Trek is a bit of a successor to that kind of storytelling.
    Yep. Almost all of the established superheroes have various ideological underpinnings, but Wonder Woman was explicitly built on ideology from day one, and it infuses everything about the character.
    ęSpeaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given outĽ (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  11. #71
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    From a cis perspective, it looks progressive that he includes a trans woman in the comic (even if only for a single frame) and has Diana says that "there is room for everyone". But from the perspective of an oppressed minority, that answer rings hollow. It implies that their oppressors are also welcome. It doesn't tell how the Amazons or the Amazon code will relate to trans women
    It kind of implies the opposite, doesn't it? it they're welcome there, would the attitudes of their oppressors really be tolerated?

    Also, is it really the place of a cis author to further explore the story of how a transwoman would relate to the Amazon code and vice versa? That strikes me as an opportunity to be given to a trans author (along with other opportunities to break into the industry to tell other types of stories). I believe this is why Steve Orlando brought on Vita Ayala as co-author for Supergirl #19, as they were introducing a non-binary character.

    As it stands, it's kind of the bare minimum of a progressive moment when a lot more progress needs to be made. But I also don't think the subject has ever been broached in a Wonder Woman comic before this period.

  12. #72
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Heh, Batman: Earth One I found the most refreshing Bat-book in years honestly and the only time I've cared about Bruce's origin. Though seeing a book where Bruce isn't the best at everything and anything has a lot to do with it
    It’s entertaining as hell for me don’t get me wrong. But it’s not really that different from mainline Batman conceptually. Nor do I feel like it’s going to really embrace how different this Batman could be from mainline Batman conceptually. Both Batman and Superman Earth One feel like they’re just going to end up at the same destinations we’ve seen before (or at least Superman was headed in that direction before JMS quit).
    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    It a surface-level take, instead of a deep dive into saying something about and with Diana’s character. While as epic and “mythic” a character as Clark or Bruce, Diana is also political at her core and the best writers need to find a way to embrace that in connection to her fantastical world and their storytelling.

    She’s the modern myth through which to describe human behavior, psychology, and sociology. Her original stories did that and Star Trek is a bit of a successor to that kind of storytelling.
    Right but it’s similar to what happened with the Golden Age Superman. GA Superman is a straight up power fantasy with no real consideration of what the effects of what he’s doing will be. Dangling a corrupt businessman over the ledge to force him to confess his crimes sure feels satisfying to see but you can’t use that in court to prosecute him because it was taken under duress. Learning the limits of the Golden Age approach was part of the arc for New 52 Superman under Morrison.

    Earth One WW is trying to do something similar. What’s it mean for a white woman who grew up in privilege like Diana to come to a black man like EO Steve and say “you need to submit to my loving authority because I am superior to you”. The Amazons don’t discriminate by race but the real world does. There’s stuff Diana doesn’t understand about our world because Themyscaria doesn’t have the same set up. Again Morrison doesn’t do a great job handling it, but he is attempting to engage with Marston’s beliefs in a way most won’t. Marston was a female supremacist, he believed women were better than men because they were kinder and gentler and wiser inherently. Despite his good intentions, viewing women as inherently “softer” than men comes with it’s own problems. I know quite a few women who believe that the reason we haven’t had as many female tyrants isn’t because women are softer it’s because women don’t get as many opportunities to wield absolute power as men have.
    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I'm not sure I'd stretch Morrison's Wonder Woman Earth One so far as "ambitious failure". My read is that rather that Morrison totally failed to understand where Marston came from, or how feminist theory has developed in the intervening 70 years. The result is that rather than updating or exploring Marston's ideas, he mocks them at an extremely superficial level. Morrison also doesn't get some important elements of the critique he does use.

    From a cis perspective, it looks progressive that he includes a trans woman in the comic (even if only for a single frame) and has Diana says that "there is room for everyone". But from the perspective of an oppressed minority, that answer rings hollow. It implies that their oppressors are also welcome. It doesn't tell how the Amazons or the Amazon code will relate to trans women



    Yep. Almost all of the established superheroes have various ideological underpinnings, but Wonder Woman was explicitly built on ideology from day one, and it infuses everything about the character.
    It’s ambitious because it tries. It’s a failure because he doesn’t do a good job a lot of the time. That said that Diana does affirm transwomen have a place says a lot and is more than they get in the mainline books where as far as I’m aware they’ve never even broached the subject. It’s not perfect but is it even Morrison’s place to really go in-depth on that subject as Siege points out?

    It’s not going to be a definitive work on Diana the way Rucka, Simone, or even Azzarello were but it’s interesting enough to hold my attention and Paquette’s art is gorgeous.
    Last edited by Vordan; 10-25-2020 at 06:56 PM.

  13. #73
    Astonishing Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    It’s entertaining as hell for me don’t get me wrong. But it’s not really that different from mainline Batman conceptually. Nor do I feel like it’s going to really embrace how different this Batman could be from mainline Batman conceptually. Both Batman and Superman Earth One feel like they’re just going to end up at the same destinations we’ve seen before (or at least Superman was headed in that direction before JMS quit).
    Yeah, if I had mostly wider critique of the Earth One line is that they're not that ultimately different from the main counterparts (mainly Superman and Batman). Wonder Woman is at least trying to do something different with modern Golden Age and I think that's why I liked the first volume of GL: Earth One so much.

    Then there's Titans but that just sucked from what I heard.

  14. #74
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    I think what appeals to me about WW that the other s dont is that it feels different while having all the old school stuff in place, and without any of the baggage. Whereas Batman has Jessica Dent as Two Face and im like "but i wanted a new version of Harvey"

    I guess im boring and want the same old crap lol.

  15. #75
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I think what appeals to me about WW that the other s dont is that it feels different while having all the old school stuff in place, and without any of the baggage. Whereas Batman has Jessica Dent as Two Face and im like "but i wanted a new version of Harvey"

    I guess im boring and want the same old crap lol.
    They rarely do anything with Diana’s traditional Rogues in the mainline books so wanting to see more usage of them in her “Elseworlds”/standalones is perfectly understandable.

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