Diana's origin and Themyscira

[kjn]

Wonder Woman's Amazons and Themyscira is probably one of the trickiest places for world-building that I can think of. A number of different factors come together and intersect with each other, and there are a lot of different moving and interlocking parts to decide upon, all of which have different implications for Wonder Woman's construction, ideological implications, and follow-on effects.

The five axioms I am using here are the following:

1. The Amazons are competent and a positive force of civilisation.
2. The Amazons went into seclusion on Themyscira circa 3,000 years or more ago.
3. Diana does not have a biological father.
4. Diana enters Man's World in roughly modern times (where modern times is defined as the First World War forward).
5. Diana isn't 3,000 years old.

Those five axioms are then combined with various world-building choices, and I will try to look at what the implications then will be, for Diana and Themyscira. I'm sure there are other ways to fulfill these (or similar) axioms, but so far these are the three I have come up with, and their follow-on effects on Themyscira and narrative.

(1) Prophesised Clay

This is basically the Marston and Pérez take: Hippolyta longs for a child, sculpts one from clay, and Diana is brought to life by some or all of the Olympic goddesses.

One assumption here is that the gods are rather active in Diana's life from the very start. But to me a big question is why Diana was born when she was, because it needed the active decision of Aphrodite (or some other of the goddesses), and then you run into the problem of prophesies, since Diana is supposed to be ready for action when Steve arrives.

One way to handle that could be to have the goddesses deciding to act when they feel Krypton exploding or Superman arriving in the solar system. That would make Diana roughly the same age as Superman, and having her as a reaction to Superman sort of fits with out-of-universe reasons for creating Wonder Woman, but I think seconding Wonder Woman to Superman in-universe is a bit troubling, so if anyone has a better reason, I'd be happy to hear about it.

Since the Amazons have been around for a long time, one can easily justify scientifically advanced Amazons, but at the same time you need to keep track of a big miracle in recent times. That points towards Amazons heavy on magitech or similar.

(2) Kid Amazons

This was an early idea of mine. As the Amazons went into seclusion, some of them were pregnant or were caring for children (both girls and boys). The girls went into seclusion too, and the boys were left in the caring of the gods (Artemis and Hermes make the most sense). Hippolyta possibly had to give up her son during this, and the grief over that led her sculpt Diana from clay, after which Diana was brought to life as above.

There are some potential upsides with this take. It gives Diana other kids to grow up with, only slightly older than she is. It gives Diana an older half-brother somewhere in Man's World. It gives a clear explanation for why only certain Amazons could compete in the games in order to leave with Steve for Man's World—they are the children of the original Amazons, who swore to never leave.

There are also some issues with this. A 3,000-year-old Diana can be a hard sell.
This can be solved through some form of time dilation—that time runs differently and much slower on Themyscira, at least for much of its history. For the Amazons, only 20–25 years have passed since they arrived, though for practical narrative purposes it might be good that the time dilation is no longer in effect after Steve ended up on the island. This solution will pretty much require high-mythical Amazons, rather close to their Bronze Age roots. Rucka's Rebirth Amazons probably come rather close to this.

However, one also needs some narratively plausible explanation for why Diana's half-brother is out there to meet her, when he supposedly arrived in Man's World as an infant. Messing with time carries with it narrative complications and indications of specialness that I'd prefer to avoid.

(3) Reproductive Science

This is inspired by the possibility of taking an egg and using it to fertilise another egg, in this case eggs probably provided by Philippus (who provides the egg that is turned into a sperm-equivalent) and Hippolyta. Here we are firmly in science fiction territory, though definitely within the realms of plausibility.

An upside for this is that we can easily skip messing with time or with recent divine interventions. The Amazons didn't develop the science needed until about 20–40 years before current time. It also gives them a clear case where they have superior science and technology to the modern world, so is well suited for technologically advanced Amazons.

This version leaves relatively little room for actions from the goddesses on the Amazons, and thus make it tricky to give Diana her full set of powers. It will also require some way to involve and manage any other daughters the Amazons create using this method, after Diana is born.

[Agent Z]

I fluctuate on kid Amazons. I do want Donna to be adopted and Nubia to be created the same way as Diana but as Philippus' daughter.

[Perseus]

I don't necessarily understand this thread. Diana can be 3000+ years old and have the body of someone in her late 20s due to her divine nature, the two are not mutually exclusive. I always thought that Diana's creation was in one way a sign of respect for Hippolyta after the events with Hercules and another as a check/balance for Ares when he goes mad.

While I think its important for children to socialize together, Diana really should be the only child on Themyscira. I guess if I had to choose an option, the amazons with their magitech would be able to have reproductive science.

[kjn]

I don't necessarily understand this thread. Diana can be 3000+ years old and have the body of someone in her late 20s due to her divine nature, the two are not mutually exclusive. I always thought that Diana's creation was in one way a sign of respect for Hippolyta after the events with Hercules and another as a check/balance for Ares when he goes mad.

Since immortality is established on Themyscira there is no physical problem with Diana being 3,000+ years old but with the body of a 25-year-old.

What is an issue however is writing her as a person with 3,000+ years of experience, training, and education, not to mention the mindset that would have come from such a long life.

[Perseus]

What is an issue however is writing her as a person with 3,000+ years of experience, training, and education, not to mention the mindset that would have come from such a long life.

I mean yes, the issue is barely anyone does that. Its usually a fish out of water or someone that is too trusting even beyond reason.

[AmiMizuno]

I mean wouldn’t it be easy to say children come to the island if they are abandoned and left to dead? The Amazons do care for left and it’s mostly girls. Also I want the Amazons to be advance tech wise also. I mean if they are dealing with not just the doom gate or Ares they would also want to be creative. They have the magic sphere. Wouldn’t they want to be ready for anything?

There could also be the idea that the Wonder Woman title could be ever so often a Amazon would leave for a week. And they would return with some tech or a children or woman to see if the Amazons could return

[Koriand'r]

I don't necessarily understand this thread. Diana can be 3000+ years old and have the body of someone in her late 20s due to her divine nature, the two are not mutually exclusive. I always thought that Diana's creation was in one way a sign of respect for Hippolyta after the events with Hercules and another as a check/balance for Ares when he goes mad.

While I think its important for children to socialize together, Diana really should be the only child on Themyscira. I guess if I had to choose an option, the amazons with their magitech would be able to have reproductive science.

She could be the only child and have all her fairy tale adventures with nearby friends, merboys, genies and aliens and whatnot.

As for Hippolyta the reincarnated pregnant cavewoman thing worked and didn't need changing.

Magitech is fine for transportation, weapons and defense but the blessed clay is better just as gifts from various gods are better than any inheritance from Zeus.

[PCN24454]

I hate how a lot of comics have been easing up on their fantastical elements.

While being the daughter of Zeus is fantastical, it's not as fantastical as being molded from clay which is why it gets used so much currently.

[Guy_McNichts]

I'd prefer Diana not be thousands of years old. For various reasons.
So, as to the question of why the gods granted her life when they did, I would lean into the prophecy (for lack of a better term) angle in that they have a special purpose for her.

I wouldn't tie it directly to the coming of Kal-El on Earth, but I would suggest there is a link between his arrival, Diana's birth and other heroes' origins suggesting that a "New Age of Heroes" is coming. Dark forces on the horizon...Ares, Darkseid, etc...call for heroes to rise to meet them.

Diana's birth isn't a reaction to Superman per say, rather they're both separate signs of changing times.

Something I think could come of this is it adds to Hippolyta's protective nature and her determination to keep Diana from leaving Themyscira even when Steve Trevor's arrival heralds that it's time for an Amazon Champion.

Part of her knows/fears the gods wouldn't grant her a daughter unless they had a reason for it, and her forbidding Diana from entering the Contest is her fighting fate as much as it is anything else.
And Diana being young even for a mortal (early-mid twenties I'd say) only makes it more painful for her. Out of 3,000 years, she only had the daughter she long desired for a mere two decades and change.

Further down the line, the prophecy angle can be used for conflict between Diana and the gods--some see her as a weapon and their tool, and she naturally resists.

Honestly, that is something that keeps getting built to over and over again, but almost never pays off in a meaningful way. The gods use and abuse Diana and it always seems like we're going to see her finally defy them or outright fight them...then the next writer comes along and reverts it back to status quo.

So that's the angle I'd go with...a big "finding/defining destiny" theme, playing into Diana's desire to leave Themyscira, becoming a hero when she does, and eventually defining it for herself which may or may not go against what the gods meant for her.


I also prefer Diana be the first and only child of Themyscira. For various reasons, however, I wouldn't rule out the Amazons finding a way to have children after she becomes Wonder Woman--found orphans or some sort of reproductive science/magic.

That would actually play into a theme of Wonder Woman signifying change and growth--not just for the world of men, but Themyscira.
Once she leaves the island and eventually reveals its existence to the outside world, the Amazons themselves become less isolated, more open, and yeah, maybe birth a new generation of Amazons.

[AmiMizuno]

I'm curious anyone okay with more advance Amazons? Like for centuries, they kept growing their tech.

[Gaius]

Generally in the camp of Diana being the only child on the island. Think it adds to her sense of wanting to leave the island if she’s the only one who has never known the outside world.

[kjn]

I mean wouldn’t it be easy to say children come to the island if they are abandoned and left to dead? The Amazons do care for left and it’s mostly girls. Also I want the Amazons to be advance tech wise also. I mean if they are dealing with not just the doom gate or Ares they would also want to be creative. They have the magic sphere. Wouldn’t they want to be ready for anything?

There could also be the idea that the Wonder Woman title could be ever so often a Amazon would leave for a week. And they would return with some tech or a children or woman to see if the Amazons could return

The abandoned children turning up on Themyscira is certainly an angle that could work. However, it brings itself with it a number of things to address.

The first is the diversity of the Amazons, especially since there are far more non-white people around than there are white people, once you take the entire world into account. The Amazons as depicted by DC already has a diversity problem, this would make it much more apparent.

Another is to avoid over-population on Themyscira, which leads both into if the Amazons are immortal, if their numbers are diminished in some other way, and how the kids are chosen. Because if all abandoned girls end up there, then the island will soon be overrun.

She could be the only child and have all her fairy tale adventures with nearby friends, merboys, genies and aliens and whatnot.

As for Hippolyta the reincarnated pregnant cavewoman thing worked and didn't need changing.

Magitech is fine for transportation, weapons and defense but the blessed clay is better just as gifts from various gods are better than any inheritance from Zeus.

I'm not sure I liked Pérez's thing with reincarnated souls, and there would have been far more pregnant women killed by men than a single one among the 3,000.

IFurther down the line, the prophecy angle can be used for conflict between Diana and the gods--some see her as a weapon and their tool, and she naturally resists.

Honestly, that is something that keeps getting built to over and over again, but almost never pays off in a meaningful way. The gods use and abuse Diana and it always seems like we're going to see her finally defy them or outright fight them...then the next writer comes along and reverts it back to status quo.

This is really for another thread, but I agree that Diana's relation to the gods almost always is poorly handled. Long-term, I think Diana's role should be to choose humanity over the gods.

That would actually play into a theme of Wonder Woman signifying change and growth--not just for the world of men, but Themyscira.
Once she leaves the island and eventually reveals its existence to the outside world, the Amazons themselves become less isolated, more open, and yeah, maybe birth a new generation of Amazons.

This is another place where I think the depictions of the Amazons have been misguided. The original Amazons were meant as leaders and teachers of humanity, with love and compassion as their main message. Instead of having to teach them that again, I'd much rather have the exile of Themyscira interpreted as something they had to give up rather than something they abandoned, and that Diana leaving the island meant that they could continue with their mission.

[Gaius]

Further down the line, the prophecy angle can be used for conflict between Diana and the gods--some see her as a weapon and their tool, and she naturally resists.

Honestly, that is something that keeps getting built to over and over again, but almost never pays off in a meaningful way. The gods use and abuse Diana and it always seems like we're going to see her finally defy them or outright fight them...then the next writer comes along and reverts it back to status quo.

So that's the angle I'd go with...a big "finding/defining destiny" theme, playing into Diana's desire to leave Themyscira, becoming a hero when she does, and eventually defining it for herself which may or may not go against what the gods meant for her.

I've got this sense from some runs on the character also. Rucka's first run in particular felt like it was building up to some confrontation with Athena.

[AmiMizuno]

The abandoned children turning up on Themyscira is certainly an angle that could work. However, it brings itself with it a number of things to address.

The first is the diversity of the Amazons, especially since there are far more non-white people around than there are white people, once you take the entire world into account. The Amazons as depicted by DC already has a diversity problem, this would make it much more apparent.

Another is to avoid over-population on Themyscira, which leads both into if the Amazons are immortal, if their numbers are diminished in some other way, and how the kids are chosen. Because if all abandoned girls end up there, then the island will soon be overrun..

with the abandoned children. I was actually thinking that not all will be adopted by the Amazons rather will be taken to new homes that they will be loved.

[PCN24454]

Why would the Amazons have a diversity problem again? Aren't they situated near Greece? Therefore, most of the women should be of mediterranean descent. Though, they probably should have more people with darker skin.