Wonder Woman - General Discussion

[Vordan]

Hasn't there been talk that the upcoming merger will pretty much see Gunn ousted, along with his plans?

Nope. Zaslav chatted with Paramount about a merger, but said merger would leave Zaslav running the new company. No reason to think anything would change, plus Superman Legacy is already entering production. Gunn’s DCU will live or die by how that does, if it’s a success there’s no reason to believe that Gunn would be replaced even if Zaslav left and someone else took over.

[Mantis-Ray]

You act as if Gunn is some unknown quantity. He's been in the movie business for more than a decade, and I've watched several of his movies. I've also watched how his DC Films Studios has been just as chaotic with drama and ambiguity as the last few DC Films regimes. I don't like Gunn's humor, I don't trust Gunn to make strong female characters, and I definitely don't trust him to make a strong Wonder Woman film. I also don't like the casting decisions he's made thus far except for his Lois Lane.

If I'm incorrect, I will happily enjoy his content, but I doubt I'll be incorrect.

He's currently 2 for 2 in what he's made. He's made a Suicide Squad that people actually liked and his Peacemaker show wound up being especially good which surprised everyone who thought it was just a marketing vehicle for John Cena. Even the female characters in them are especially well-liked like Ratcatcher 2.

Technically he's already done better than the likes of Zack Snyder or Patty Jenkins who have at most one well-received movie to their name (Man of Steel and Wonder Woman 1).

[PopQuezy]

I'm ambivalent regarding Gunn but it is far too early to call his regime chaotic.

There's already been drama with what he's promised people - Gadot. There was drama regarding what involvement Affleck would have in the new universe. Gunn said Affleck was willing to direct a film in the Gunnverse with Affleck immediately denying such a claim. There was a ton of confusion as to who will and will not be retained in the new Gunnverse - hence why we had the Gadot controversy in the first place. There was confusion as to whether it was an actual reboot or a soft reboot. There was confusion as to what will and will not begin the new Gunnverse since Gunn himself kept moving the goalposts because of his Twitter/Threads commentary. He has post saying Blue Beetle both will and will not be a part of this new Gunnverse. A couple of weeks ago there was some drama regarding Gunn confirming that Reeves refused to allow his Batman in the new Gunn universe. There was also drama with people being upset that he hired his brother to play Maxwell Lord.

This is all before the cameras even started rolling for Superman: Legacy.

I'll argue that is a bit chaotic for a new cinematic universe that hasn't even started filming for it's first movie.

[LordUltimus]

There's already been drama with what he's promised people - Gadot. There was drama regarding what involvement Affleck would have in the new universe. Gunn said Affleck was willing to direct a film in the Gunnverse with Affleck immediately denying such a claim. There was a ton of confusion as to who will and will not be retained in the new Gunnverse - hence why we had the Gadot controversy in the first place. There was confusion as to whether it was an actual reboot or a soft reboot. There was confusion as to what will and will not begin the new Gunnverse since Gunn himself kept moving the goalposts because of his Twitter/Threads commentary. He has post saying Blue Beetle both will and will not be a part of this new Gunnverse. A couple of weeks ago there was some drama regarding Gunn confirming that Reeves refused to allow his Batman in the new Gunn universe. There was also drama with people being upset that he hired his brother to play Maxwell Lord.

This is all before the cameras even started rolling for Superman: Legacy.

I'll argue that is a bit chaotic for a new cinematic universe that hasn't even started filming for it's first movie.

Sounds like the drama is primarily happening with the fans, not behind the scenes.

[PopQuezy]

He's currently 2 for 2 in what he's made. He's made a Suicide Squad that people actually liked and his Peacemaker show wound up being especially good which surprised everyone who thought it was just a marketing vehicle for John Cena. Even the female characters in them are especially well-liked like Ratcatcher 2.

Technically he's already done better than the likes of Zack Snyder or Patty Jenkins who have at most one well-received movie to their name (Man of Steel and Wonder Woman 1).

You mean the movie that bombed at the box office only making 168 million worldwide. https://www.boxofficemojo.com/release/rl84510209/ Wonder Woman 1984 released during the height of the pandemic in 2020 with the vast majority of the movie theaters being closed in the country and restrictions for the ones that were open, yet it still made one million more. https://www.boxofficemojo.com/release/rl3624109569/

Or do you mean The Suicide Squad that received the same B+ rating as the original Suicide Squad film. https://comicbook.com/dc/news/the-su...d-cinemascore/

Or the one that couldn't even beat Mortal Kombat and Godzilla v. Kong in HBO Max viewership. https://deadline.com/2021/08/the-sui...0the%20service.

Or are you talking about the one that couldn't beat Wonder Woman 1984 in DVD sales or Bluray sales. https://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Wo...0)#tab=summary and https://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Su...1)#tab=summary

I think people wildly overestimate just how well-received that film was outside of film critics.

[Vordan]

You mean the movie that bombed at the box office only making 168 million worldwide. https://www.boxofficemojo.com/release/rl84510209/ Wonder Woman 1984 released during the height of the pandemic in 2020 with the vast majority of the movie theaters being closed in the country and restrictions for the ones that were open, yet it still made one million more. https://www.boxofficemojo.com/release/rl3624109569/

Or do you mean The Suicide Squad that received the same B+ rating as the original Suicide Squad film. https://comicbook.com/dc/news/the-su...d-cinemascore/

Or the one that couldn't even beat Mortal Kombat and Godzilla v. Kong in HBO Max viewership. https://deadline.com/2021/08/the-sui...0the%20service.

Or are you talking about the one that couldn't beat Wonder Woman 1984 in DVD sales or Bluray sales. https://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Wo...0)#tab=summary and https://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Su...1)#tab=summary

I think people wildly overestimate just how well-received that film was outside of film critics.

The first SS was not well-liked, the first WW movie was. His sequel faced a tough fight between the first movie and Covid. Even then he delivered the only successful MCU movie of last year, which had such great word of mouth it recovered from a weak opening due to franchise fatigue caused by how bad Ant-Man 3 was.

[PopQuezy]

The first SS was not well-liked, the first WW movie was. His sequel faced a tough fight between the first movie and Covid. Even then he delivered the only successful MCU movie of last year, which had such great word of mouth it recovered from a weak opening due to franchise fatigue caused by how bad Ant-Man 3 was.

The first Suicide Squad and his The Suicide Squad received the same CinemaScore from audiences which I already linked. The first Suicide Squad also did well in DVD and Bluray sales https://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Su...ad#tab=summary. It far surpassed Gunn's The Suicide Squad DVD and Bluray sales which I already linked. The first Suicde Squad was also a merchandising juggernaut, including Harley Quinn by far being the most popular costume for 2016. https://www.teenvogue.com/story/harl...oween-polyvore

The first Suicide Squad also won an Oscar for costuming and makeup.

Lets's see: the first Suicide Squad was more financially successful at the box office, more successful in DVD/Bluray sales, more successful in merchandising, and helped transform Suicide Squad into a massive IP, including two spinoffs, a sequel, an HBO Max series, a video game, and a Justice League vs. Suicide Squad comic series with one of the most popular comic book artists attached to it. It also won an Academy Award.

Yet Gunn's The Suicide Squad is more successful because it has a higher Rotten Tomatoes score.

[PopQuezy]

The first SS was not well-liked, the first WW movie was. His sequel faced a tough fight between the first movie and Covid. Even then he delivered the only successful MCU movie of last year, which had such great word of mouth it recovered from a weak opening due to franchise fatigue caused by how bad Ant-Man 3 was.

I also didn't compare Gunn's The Suicide Squad to Wonder Woman but to Wonder Woman 1984. His The Suicide Squad still was not as successful as WW84 in the box office or in DVD/Bluray sales.

The Suicide Squad also hasn't gotten particularly high numbers on Netflix, yet Suicide Squad 2016, Aquaman, Black Adam, and Superpets have all been in the top ten in Netflix films. Suicide Squad 2016 peaked at 6 last I saw.

Again, how is The Suicide Squad more successful, except for Rotten Tomatoes score?

[Gaius]

The first Suicide Squad and his The Suicide Squad received the same CinemaScore from audiences which I already linked. The first Suicide Squad also did well in DVD and Bluray sales https://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Su...ad#tab=summary. It far surpassed Gunn's The Suicide Squad DVD and Bluray sales which I already linked. The first Suicde Squad was also a merchandising juggernaut, including Harley Quinn by far being the most popular costume for 2016. https://www.teenvogue.com/story/harl...oween-polyvore

The first Suicide Squad also won an Oscar for costuming and makeup.

Lets's see: the first Suicide Squad was more financially successful at the box office, more successful in DVD/Bluray sales, more successful in merchandising, and helped transform Suicide Squad into a massive IP, including two spinoffs, a sequel, an HBO Max series, a video game, and a Justice League vs. Suicide Squad comic series with one of the most popular comic book artists attached to it. It also won an Academy Award.

Yet Gunn's The Suicide Squad is more successful because it has a higher Rotten Tomatoes score.

Which is David Ayer is the one leading the reboot of the DCEU, right?

We also gonna ignore SS had as big a dropoff as "Save Martha": The Movie?

All of SS's woes since 2016, such as HQ's movie going off like a dud and their currently flailing video game right now, goes directly back to the first movie being one of the worst films of the past decade.

[PopQuezy]

Which is David Ayer is the one leading the reboot of the DCEU, right?

We also gonna ignore SS had as big a dropoff as "Save Martha": The Movie?

All of SS's woes since 2016, such as HQ's movie going off like a dud and their currently flailing video game right now, goes directly back to the first movie being one of the worst films of the past decade.

A big dropoff that still led to $325 million in the US alone. That's still almost double what The Suicide Squad made worldwide.

Harley Quinn is a dud, yet she's about to have an animated series in its fifth season. She's co-headlining a video game, and she's the lead of a spinoff film that still did better in DVD/Bluray sales than The Suicide Squad. https://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Bi...0)#tab=summary

She's still also a merchandising juggernaut who had the most popular costume in 2016.

No one here argued that David Ayer should be the lead of the new DCU, nor did I argue he was a competent filmmaker. However, I am arguing he delivered the more successful Suicide Squad film in every metric but the Rotten Tomatoes score.

I am also arguing that the audience response to The Suicide Squad is overblown since there are no metrics, besides the Rotten Tomatoes score, that it was well-received by the audience.

[Mantis-Ray]

The respective failures of Birds of Prey and TSS can be placed at Suicide Squad killing the hype for it and making them harder sell for audiences.

SS1 only made as much as it did on pure hype, the moment people realized its garbage its legs evaporated and it wound up technically underperforming. Its the same as Ant-Man 3 which did have a good opening weekend but the actual reception killed its word of mouth and people stopped coming in on succeeding weeks.

Also the Suicide Squad video game is about to be our first major video game disaster of the year and this is entirely placed on it being so obsessed with synergizing to the Ayer film giving it all the reasons people already disliked that film for.

[Gaius]

A big dropoff that still led to $325 million in the US alone. That's still almost double what The Suicide Squad made worldwide.

Harley Quinn is a dud, yet she's about to have an animated series in its fifth season. She's co-headlining a video game, and she's the lead of a spinoff film that still did better in DVD/Bluray sales than The Suicide Squad. https://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Bi...0)#tab=summary

She's still also a merchandising juggernaut who had the most popular costume in 2016.

No one here argued that David Ayer should be the lead of the new DCU, nor did I argue he was a competent filmmaker. However, I am arguing he delivered the more successful Suicide Squad film in every metric but the Rotten Tomatoes score.

I am also arguing that the audience response to The Suicide Squad is overblown since there are no metrics, besides the Rotten Tomatoes score, that it was well-received by the audience.

Yes, and as I said. SS being a largely flailing franchise since is because the of the first film being as reviled as it is. Make a bad movie that audiences reject after the first weekend and people won't go to the sequel.

[PopQuezy]

The respective failures of Birds of Prey and TSS can be placed at Suicide Squad killing the hype for it and making them harder sell for audiences.

SS1 only made as much as it did on pure hype, the moment people realized its garbage its legs evaporated and it wound up technically underperforming. Its the same as Ant-Man 3 which did have a good opening weekend but the actual reception killed its word of mouth and people stopped coming in on succeeding weeks.

Also the Suicide Squad video game is about to be our first major video game disaster of the year and this is entirely placed on it being so obsessed with synergizing to the Ayer film giving it all the reasons people already disliked that film for.

Yes, and as I said. SS being a largely flailing franchise since is because the of the first film being as reviled as it is. Make a bad movie that audiences reject after the first weekend and people won't go to the sequel.

The film made nearly $90 million in DVD/Bluray sales. That tells me that people did enjoy the film. I assume people don't buy physical media for movies they don't like. Suicide Squad also did better on Netflix than The Suicide Squad even though they were released on the same day. Again, if the audience likes the film more, then why isn't the audience watching the film they allegedly like more? Less audience at the box office, less audience in physical media, and less audience on Netflix. That doesn't tell me that The Suicide Squad is the more liked film by the audience.

Both of you keep saying how unliked the first Suicide Squad was, yet the audience habits don't agree with you.

Additionally, I can't find any mention of Peacemaker being one of the most worn costumes for 2021. Unless one of you can provide me a link, this says the audience of this allegedly better-received film chose not to watch it in a variety of media, and they didn't even buy the merchandise/costume of the most popular character from the film.

[PopQuezy]

Also, according to this Forbes article, The Suicide Squad dropped a "record" 71%. https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottme...h=7d26ae2445e8

Again, how is The Suicide Squad the more well-received film by the audience when all of its metrics show the audience largely ignored or disliked it?

[wonder39]

Personally, I hated the second SS movie.

Meanwhile, in a Wonder Woman thread ....lol