Wonder Woman - General Discussion

[bardkeep]

Where I fall off is when she's depicted as too bulky, too tall, too "masculine"... Too rough? I know that's subjective...lol
There's an unfortunate pitfall some artists fall into of following the misconceptions of the Amazons of Myth, with the " action girls must be like men" thing that I hate. Or the "sexpot" "supermodel". Thing. That's a sort of artificial beauty.

Idk, I'd challenge the assumption that muscular = masculine. I'm not as particular about her height (I think she could be tall but I don't think she needs to be, like, 6'5") but I do think it's a little troublesome to have Superman and Batman - the physical ideals of masculinity - portrayed as massive and jacked while Diana looks like Lynda Carter or Gal Gadot. It's just feeding off of the cultural pressure for women to be as small as possible.

I think the bigger problem is when artists make her look like a buff dude with **** (really top-heavy, disproportionately huge biceps, vascularity). There are ways to make her look strong and muscular while still making her look very feminine. Great example would be Will Murai, who draws her very muscular but not masculine - she's got the defined shoulders/biceps but she also has wide hips, a defined waist, thick thighs, and more of a pear/hourglass shape:



Or for a more famous example Darwyn Cooke - his Diana looks strong and ridiculously tall but she's still very feminine:

[Gaius]

Well looks like combined with SS getting dunked on for being trash, looks like no IJ3 also for a while.

So sucks for BatGod fans but good news for WW all around.

[wonder39]

Idk, I'd challenge the assumption that muscular = masculine. I'm not as particular about her height (I think she could be tall but I don't think she needs to be, like, 6'5") but I do think it's a little troublesome to have Superman and Batman - the physical ideals of masculinity - portrayed as massive and jacked while Diana looks like Lynda Carter or Gal Gadot. It's just feeding off of the cultural pressure for women to be as small as possible.

I think the bigger problem is when artists make her look like a buff dude with **** (really top-heavy, disproportionately huge biceps, vascularity). There are ways to make her look strong and muscular while still making her look very feminine. Great example would be Will Murai, who draws her very muscular but not masculine - she's got the defined shoulders/biceps but she also has wide hips, a defined waist, thick thighs, and more of a pear/hourglass shape:



Or for a more famous example Darwyn Cooke - his Diana looks strong and ridiculously tall but she's still very feminine:

That's why I said " too" tall, ",too" bulky, "too " masculine.

I didn't say having muscles or definition makes you masculine. It's the degree.

I personally don't mind the body type of a Lynda or Gal. For characters like WW or Kal, muscle size isn't indicative of strength ( as it's all magic or sci Fi).

But Diana should have an athletic body. Lean muscle. I agree there's a way of depicting that without making her look like man. But sadly not everyone has that ability...lol

I always think of Diana as being about 6 ' tall, with Kal and Bruce being 6'1" to 6'3". But I grew up when she was probably 5'10"? That's not tiny.

I sometimes think of her physical stature/ appearance like I do her bracelets. The traditionally smaller bracelets are actually cooler, because it takes more skill to deflect with them. Big ol bracelets to her elbows seem more practical, but ( 1) are more uncomfortable and (2) not as exciting.

Similarity, her not being as tall as the main guys, and not being bulky, make her feats of strength, etc seem more wonderous.

[BiteTheBullet]

That's why I said " too" tall, ",too" bulky, "too " masculine.

I didn't say having muscles or definition makes you masculine. It's the degree.

I personally don't mind the body type of a Lynda or Gal. For characters like WW or Kal, muscle size isn't indicative of strength ( as it's all magic or sci Fi).

But Diana should have an athletic body. Lean muscle. I agree there's a way of depicting that without making her look like man. But sadly not everyone has that ability...lol

I always think of Diana as being about 6 ' tall, with Kal and Bruce being 6'1" to 6'3". But I grew up when she was probably 5'10"? That's not tiny.

I sometimes think of her physical stature/ appearance like I do her bracelets. The traditionally smaller bracelets are actually cooler, because it takes more skill to deflect with them. Big ol bracelets to her elbows seem more practical, but ( 1) are more uncomfortable and (2) not as exciting.

Similarity, her not being as tall as the main guys, and not being bulky, make her feats of strength, etc seem more wonderous.

I agree with this

If they could find a 'super model' type that has an athletic build like a bikini or fitness model, that would be a perfect mix or balance for me.

I know she is on the shorter side, but Jessica Biel had this 'body' type when she was in Blade 3.

[hareluyafan1]

Oh here we go. If you need a lesson on why whitewashing and race bending are not in the same wheelhouse by now...i don't know what to tell ya.

LOL "race bending." Nice euphemism. Much more acceptable than calling it blackwashing or brownwashing. Social engineering at it's finest.

Double standards are just that. Two wrongs do not make a right.

And just so we're clear, if say a Bronze Tiger movie was announced and Ben was being played by a Caucasian, I'd be complaining along with everybody else. Don't even think of trying to accuse me of any kind of racial prejudice because my entire point is that all racial prejudice is wrong.

A better comparison to making Black Panther white is making Wonder Woman and the Amazons men. His Blackness isn't just a skin tone, it's a political identity.

Fair point. An even better comparison is the blackwashing of Ariel in the "Little Mermaid" live-action remake. Consider that-

A) Mermaids live thousands of leagues underwater. There is no logical reason for them to have high melanin levels because they get little exposure to sunlight.

B) The story is based on a Danish fairy tale.

It's pure racism. If you want more movies starring 'people of colour' (is that term still acceptable? Apologies if not), then make more movies based on African folktales and such.

Besides, we're not even talking about racebending here...she's still white, just a slightly darker shade. I have Ashkenazi Jewish and Southern Italian friends and relatives with that skin tone.

True.

Anyway, sorry for dragging this off-topic.

[hareluyafan1]

I agree with this

If they could find a 'super model' type that has an athletic build like a bikini or fitness model, that would be a perfect mix or balance for me.

I know she is on the shorter side, but Jessica Biel had this 'body' type when she was in Blade 3.

Exactly.

Jessica Biel was the only good part of that movie.

[Primal Slayer]

LOL "race bending." Nice euphemism. Much more acceptable than calling it blackwashing or brownwashing. Social engineering at it's finest.

Double standards are just that. Two wrongs do not make a right.

And just so we're clear, if say a Bronze Tiger movie was announced and Ben was being played by a Caucasian, I'd be complaining along with everybody else. Don't even think of trying to accuse me of any kind of racial prejudice because my entire point is that all racial prejudice is wrong.



Fair point. An even better comparison is the blackwashing of Ariel in the "Little Mermaid" live-action remake. Consider that-

A) Mermaids live thousands of leagues underwater. There is no logical reason for them to have high melanin levels because they get little exposure to sunlight.

B) The story is based on a Danish fairy tale.

It's pure racism. If you want more movies starring 'people of colour' (is that term still acceptable? Apologies if not), then make more movies based on African folktales and such.



True.

Anyway, sorry for dragging this off-topic.

Sure Jan. Just continue with your ignorance.

Where's WW with her lasso of truth when we need her.

[Gaius]

LOL "race bending." Nice euphemism. Much more acceptable than calling it blackwashing or brownwashing. Social engineering at it's finest.

Double standards are just that. Two wrongs do not make a right.

And just so we're clear, if say a Bronze Tiger movie was announced and Ben was being played by a Caucasian, I'd be complaining along with everybody else. Don't even think of trying to accuse me of any kind of racial prejudice because my entire point is that all racial prejudice is wrong.



Fair point. An even better comparison is the blackwashing of Ariel in the "Little Mermaid" live-action remake. Consider that-

A) Mermaids live thousands of leagues underwater. There is no logical reason for them to have high melanin levels because they get little exposure to sunlight.

B) The story is based on a Danish fairy tale.

It's pure racism. If you want more movies starring 'people of colour' (is that term still acceptable? Apologies if not), then make more movies based on African folktales and such.



True.

Anyway, sorry for dragging this off-topic.

Yes, it's not the same because "brownwashing" or "blackwashing" don't have the same real ugly history of casting white people to be play other races often in the form of unflattering stereotypes that are done in tandem of excluding said races from the entertainment industry.

[I'm a Fish]

Fair point. An even better comparison is the blackwashing of Ariel in the "Little Mermaid" live-action remake. Consider that-

A) Mermaids live thousands of leagues underwater. There is no logical reason for them to have high melanin levels because they get little exposure to sunlight.

...You know mermaids aren't real right?

[bardkeep]

Yes, it's not the same because "brownwashing" or "blackwashing" don't have the same real ugly history of casting white people to be play other races often in the form of unflattering stereotypes that are done in tandem of excluding said races from the entertainment industry.

Gaius coming through with the good takes as usual.

...You know mermaids aren't real right?

Sounds like science denial to me. Internet experts will assure you that a woman with gills instead of lungs, a giant fish tail for legs, and lots of singing fish friends is totally fine and reasonable as long as her skin isn't brown.

I wonder what "logic" people are going to use to justify their outrage over Black Tinkerbell...

[wonder39]

...You know mermaids aren't real right?

And this is coming from I'm a Fish... If anyone would know if mermaids were real or not, it'd be someone identifying as a fish! ��

[Agent Z]

If Wonder Woman ever gets an animated series, would you like it to look something like this?

[VonHammersmark]

Well the Little Mermaid is a Danish national icon, there’s even a very famous statue of the Little Mermaid in Copenhagen so the Danes might feel ever so slightly irked about it maybe...

Norwegian folks on YT were certainly pleased with how Robert Eggers handled norse/pagan lore in the Northman, they must've heaved a huge sigh of relief that the Americans didn’t turn them all Persian lol

[Psy-lock]

Well the Little Mermaid is a Danish national icon, there’s even a very famous statue of the Little Mermaid in Copenhagen so the Danes might feel ever so slightly irked about it maybe...

Norwegian folks on YT were certainly pleased with how Robert Eggers handled norse/pagan lore in the Northman, they must've heaved a huge sigh of relief that the Americans didn’t turn them all Persian lol

I think they should be more irked about how Disney butchered Andersen's story by completely changing the ending

And the original movie didn't even take place in Denmark.

If Wonder Woman ever gets an animated series, would you like it to look something like this?

I have to say, if I had to choose between Wonder Woman getting a series and W.I.T.C.H getting more seasons...I'd choose W.I.T.C.H.

[AlexLyo]

Is there any greater sign that we're lacking for good Wonder Woman stories than seeing this board devolve into a conversation about Diana's appearance? It feels like a long time since a run has stimulated much conversation about actual plot points, or even favourite panels and spreads in the art.