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  1. #2641
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    For the most part. Anybody watching today's election results knows the pendelum is swinging hard to the right. I'm thinking of all the conservative mothers who would take issue with their daughters (or sons) reading the adventures of the world's foremost "lesbian" superhero. They don't even want their kids exposed to real history, they'd see gay Wonder Woman as some sort of indoctrination of their children.

    Not to mention what a horrible cliche it is, or how it seems progressive at first glance, but becomes immediately regressive once you examine it closer and realize what it says about nature vs. nurture and how it plays into long standing stereotypes.

    The risk outweighs the reward.
    I mean...literally this.


  2. #2642
    Astonishing Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    I mean...literally this.

    Yeah...literally this.

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  3. #2643
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    Isn't even that loud? In here it's deafening!

    If it were Superman it would be different, not Jon, actually Superman. That would be brave, that would be novel, that would be genuinely controversial and a tough nut to crack. With Wonder Woman it's too easy because women are given a pass to dabble sexually and people don't care.

    For the most part. Anybody watching today's election results knows the pendelum is swinging hard to the right. I'm thinking of all the conservative mothers who would take issue with their daughters (or sons) reading the adventures of the world's foremost "lesbian" superhero. They don't even want their kids exposed to real history, they'd see gay Wonder Woman as some sort of indoctrination of their children.

    Not to mention what a horrible cliche it is, or how it seems progressive at first glance, but becomes immediately regressive once you examine it closer and realize what it says about nature vs. nurture and how it plays into long standing stereotypes.

    The risk outweighs the reward.
    It's so easy that DC has never made Diana explicitly attracted to women outside of one elseworld that most peopledon't know about. If you think Diana getting a girlfriend won't be controversial, especially for people who ship her with Steve, Clark, Bruce, etc, I've got some land on the moon to sell you.

    Conservative mothers aren't likely to let their daughters read Wonder Woman unless she's explicitly written in a way to appeal to their worldview. Meaning they'll likely only let them read her comic if she's being written by Frank Miller or Ethan Van Scrier. Why you care so much what conservatives think of Wonder Woman, I don't know.

    You keep going on about stereotypes but don't seem to know what that word means, nor do you seem to know the difference between bisexual and gay. What stereotypes is Diana falling into by being attracted to both men and women and what the hell does that have to do with nature vs nurture? The lgbt fans who ship Diana with women don't see anything offensive or stereotypical about it, so this comes across faux concern masking dislike of Diana having a girlfriend.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 11-08-2022 at 10:49 PM.

  4. #2644
    Astonishing Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    Isn't even that loud? In here it's deafening!

    If it were Superman it would be different, not Jon, actually Superman. That would be brave, that would be novel, that would be genuinely controversial and a tough nut to crack. With Wonder Woman it's too easy because women are given a pass to dabble sexually and people don't care.

    For the most part. Anybody watching today's election results knows the pendelum is swinging hard to the right. I'm thinking of all the conservative mothers who would take issue with their daughters (or sons) reading the adventures of the world's foremost "lesbian" superhero. They don't even want their kids exposed to real history, they'd see gay Wonder Woman as some sort of indoctrination of their children.

    Not to mention what a horrible cliche it is, or how it seems progressive at first glance, but becomes immediately regressive once you examine it closer and realize what it says about nature vs. nurture and how it plays into long standing stereotypes.

    The risk outweighs the reward.
    If we want to appeal to conservatives we might as well turn her into a housewife and her book into a "How to be a dutiful wife and a good Christian" manual. And Steve The Man can do the superheroing instead

  5. #2645
    The Last Dragon Perseus's Avatar
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    Conservatives don't think at all, so why should we be thinking of them? The LAST think Diana's book should be 'appealing' to is conservative world views, it should be trying to get people out of them.
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  6. #2646
    Moderator Nyssane's Avatar
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    From a business standpoint, I can kinda see where Koriand'r is coming from. But I also don't think DC is dumb enough to think conservatives know or care about Wonder Woman beyond "she's hot".

  7. #2647
    Still only crumbs...... BiteTheBullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyssane View Post
    From a business standpoint, I can kinda see where Koriand'r is coming from. But I also don't think DC is dumb enough to think conservatives know or care about Wonder Woman beyond "she's hot".
    To play devils advocate, only liberals know or care about Wonder Woman besides the fact that she is 'hot'? That is how I am interpreting your argument.

    These are the kind of hyperbolic arguments that leads to political disagreements. Let's stop with how we group certain pools of people and assume we know all about them. I am definitely fiscally conservative but you don't know my social values. I tend towards libertarian, so can you group me somewhere in your political bible about how I view Wonder Woman?

  8. #2648
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    Isn't even that loud? In here it's deafening!

    If it were Superman it would be different, not Jon, actually Superman. That would be brave, that would be novel, that would be genuinely controversial and a tough nut to crack. With Wonder Woman it's too easy because women are given a pass to dabble sexually and people don't care.

    For the most part. Anybody watching today's election results knows the pendelum is swinging hard to the right. I'm thinking of all the conservative mothers who would take issue with their daughters (or sons) reading the adventures of the world's foremost "lesbian" superhero. They don't even want their kids exposed to real history, they'd see gay Wonder Woman as some sort of indoctrination of their children.

    Not to mention what a horrible cliche it is, or how it seems progressive at first glance, but becomes immediately regressive once you examine it closer and realize what it says about nature vs. nurture and how it plays into long standing stereotypes.

    The risk outweighs the reward.
    Most conservatives would view Diana as indoctrination of their children before we even get into what her sexual orientation would be. Her just existing in a narrative heavily skewed towards non-traditional feminity is enough to get them to want to avoid her. Would we have to avoid acknowledging she was raised by two women, Hippolyta and Philippus? This thought process is what lead to inserting Zeus into her origin to make her more heteronormative.

    Most of Diana's sizeable LGBT fanbase doesn't see anything regressive about it, and they would be the ones to ask, right? So why not treat it as a non-issue? Especially in the versions where she has other Amazons children around as peers that can grow into her girlfriends. And the Perez run established that there are straight Amazons who "embrace the way of Narcissus" in the absence of men. Considering how easily she begins to explore her attraction to men, it's pretty clear there is some diversity in Amazon sexuality so she isn't being influenced by anything. It's more of a strawman to just dismiss her queerness.

    As of today, it seems the Red Wave didn't make as much of a splash as it was projected to. Even if it turns out that it will, it's not Wonder Woman's job to appeal to those values. That's the last thing that should be done to her as a symbol, at least when it comes to the values that lead to Roe v Wade being overturned.

  9. #2649
    Moderator Nyssane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiteTheBullet View Post
    To play devils advocate, only liberals know or care about Wonder Woman besides the fact that she is 'hot'? That is how I am interpreting your argument.

    These are the kind of hyperbolic arguments that leads to political disagreements. Let's stop with how we group certain pools of people and assume we know all about them. I am definitely fiscally conservative but you don't know my social values. I tend towards libertarian, so can you group me somewhere in your political bible about how I view Wonder Woman?
    Believe me, we're all well aware of your thoughts on Wonder Woman.

  10. #2650
    Still only crumbs...... BiteTheBullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyssane View Post
    Believe me, we're all well aware of your thoughts on Wonder Woman.
    Good non argument from you.

    Can we assume that you will still keep up with the hyperbolic arguments and stereotyping people with your generalities?

    And what are my thoughts on Wonder Woman? Besides wanting her to be powerful as she should be, and of course be able to fly in any medium, what else do you know on my thoughts about Wonder Woman? I am willing to bet that you don't know much at all.

  11. #2651
    Moderator Nyssane's Avatar
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  12. #2652
    Astonishing Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post
    Conservatives don't think at all, so why should we be thinking of them? The LAST think Diana's book should be 'appealing' to is conservative world views, it should be trying to get people out of them.
    In retrospect I have to agree with all of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyssane View Post
    From a business standpoint, I can kinda see where Koriand'r is coming from. But I also don't think DC is dumb enough to think conservatives know or care about Wonder Woman beyond "she's hot".
    Thanks for trying to see my point of view, it's greatly appreciated.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Most conservatives would view Diana as indoctrination of their children before we even get into what her sexual orientation would be. Her just existing in a narrative heavily skewed towards non-traditional feminity is enough to get them to want to avoid her. Would we have to avoid acknowledging she was raised by two women, Hippolyta and Philippus? This thought process is what lead to inserting Zeus into her origin to make her more heteronormative.

    Most of Diana's sizeable LGBT fanbase doesn't see anything regressive about it, and they would be the ones to ask, right? So why not treat it as a non-issue? Especially in the versions where she has other Amazons children around as peers that can grow into her girlfriends. And the Perez run established that there are straight Amazons who "embrace the way of Narcissus" in the absence of men. Considering how easily she begins to explore her attraction to men, it's pretty clear there is some diversity in Amazon sexuality so she isn't being influenced by anything. It's more of a strawman to just dismiss her queerness.

    As of today, it seems the Red Wave didn't make as much of a splash as it was projected to. Even if it turns out that it will, it's not Wonder Woman's job to appeal to those values. That's the last thing that should be done to her as a symbol, at least when it comes to the values that lead to Roe v Wade being overturned.
    Honestly when I wrote that last night I was too terrified to look at the early election results and was filled with an overwhelming sense of dread. The sky was falling, the world was ending and my personal political values had been rejected by the unwashed masses, or so I thought! In the cool light of a new day it became apparent I should have had more faith. All wasn't lost, we held our own and gave as good as we got.

    As for the rest I'll address it when I annihilate Agent Z's little argument. lol

  13. #2653
    Astonishing Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    It's so easy that DC has never made Diana explicitly attracted to women outside of one elseworld that most peopledon't know about. If you think Diana getting a girlfriend won't be controversial, especially for people who ship her with Steve, Clark, Bruce, etc, I've got some land on the moon to sell you.

    Conservative mothers aren't likely to let their daughters read Wonder Woman unless she's explicitly written in a way to appeal to their worldview. Meaning they'll likely only let them read her comic if she's being written by Frank Miller or Ethan Van Scrier. Why you care so much what conservatives think of Wonder Woman, I don't know.

    You keep going on about stereotypes but don't seem to know what that word means, nor do you seem to know the difference between bisexual and gay. What stereotypes is Diana falling into by being attracted to both men and women and what the hell does that have to do with nature vs nurture? The lgbt fans who ship Diana with women don't see anything offensive or stereotypical about it, so this comes across faux concern masking dislike of Diana having a girlfriend.
    Are you trying to call me stupid without calling me stupid? It really does seem like it.

    Let me say this slowly so you may possibly understand. The first stereotype I was referring to is that physically strong, atheletic women are same sex oriented. Gay or bi it doesn't matter to the right, it's a distinction without a difference. They only see "other" at best, and "deplorable deviants" at worse.

    The second stereotype I was speaking of is that gay people have gay children due to their close proximity to and their normalization of homosexuality. However we all know that's not true, because most gay people have straight parents and their parent's heterosexuality didn't rub off on them. Therefore it irks me when posters say something to the effect of "she's from an island with only women so she MUST be same sex oriented". That's the nature vs. nurture part I was talking about.

    Okay now let me change tack and tactics. Forget everything else I mentioned and imagine a little gay boy who loves Wonder Woman. He lives vicariously through her because she's powerful and pretty and magical and has an unlimited wardrobe of cool clothes she can change into at a moments notice. She has a wholly feminine world view, she wears bracelets and a tiara and the only boys around are either bad guys she beats up, or handsome men who fall hopelessly in love with her.

    It's nice isn't it?

    But wait, now she also has a girlfriend. That takes the little gay boy out of the equation because he can't envision himself as her anymore because the last thing he wants is a girlfriend. It's not that he dislikes bisexuals or lesbians it's that this new girlfriend changes the dynamic and pushes him out of his fantasy. Even though everything else I said is also true, therein lies the crux of my personal problem with the situation.
    Last edited by Koriand'r; 11-09-2022 at 10:41 PM.

  14. #2654
    The Last Dragon Perseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    In retrospect I have to agree with all of this.



    Thanks for trying to see my point of view, it's greatly appreciated.



    Honestly when I wrote that last night I was too terrified to look at the early election results and was filled with an overwhelming sense of dread. The sky was falling, the world was ending and my personal political values had been rejected by the unwashed masses, or so I thought! In the cool light of a new day it became apparent I should have had more faith. All wasn't lost, we held our own and gave as good as we got.

    As for the rest I'll address it when I annihilate Agent Z's little argument. lol
    I understand the fear, that this country seems to be nose diving into fascism because a bunch of brain rot filled 'people' would vote red no matter how obviously bad just to 'own the libs' gets me too.
    Zaldrīzes Buzdari Iksos Daor

  15. #2655
    The Last Dragon Perseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    Are you trying to call me stupid without calling me stupid? It really does seem like it.

    Let me say this slowly so you may possibly understand. The first stereotype I was referring to is that physically strong, atheletic women are same sex oriented. Gay or bi it doesn't matter to the right, it's a distinction without a difference. They only see "other" at best, and "deplorable deviants" at worse.

    The second stereotype I was speaking of is that gay people have gay children due to their close proximity to and their normalization of homosexuality. However we all know that's not true, because most gay people have straight parents and their parent's heterosexuality didn't rub off on them. Therefore it irks me when posters say something to the effect of "she's from an island with only women so she MUST be same sex oriented". That's the nature vs. nurture part I was talking about.


    Okay now let me change tack and tactics. Forget everything else I mentioned and imagine a little gay boy who loves Wonder Woman. He lives vicariously through her because she's powerful and pretty and magical and has an unlimited wardrobe of cool clothes she can change into at a moments notice. She has a wholly feminine world view, she wears bracelets and a tiara and the only boys around are either bad guys she beats up, or handsome men who fall hopelessly in love with her.

    It's nice isn't it?

    But wait, now she also has a girlfriend. That takes the little gay boy out of the equation because he can't envision himself as her anymore because the last thing he wants is a girlfriend. It's not that he dislikes bisexuals or lesbians it's that this new girlfriend changes the dynamic and pushes him out of his fantasy. Even though everything else I said is also true, therein lies the crux of my personal problem with the situation.
    Bold is where I agree with this post the most.
    Zaldrīzes Buzdari Iksos Daor

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