Wonder Woman - General Discussion

[Perseus]

Well, it goes the other way around too though? Like Batman and Superman coming off unlikable and uncompromising in the context of a WW narrative where the readers would obviously side more with Diana.

Point me the story.

[bardkeep]

Point me the story.

Other than the aforementioned Sacrifice arc? Batman comes across as a complete jackass in Hiketeia.

Amazons Attack is what really derailed what Rucka could've given us and WW84s adaption of Max was....underwhelming imo. Just as BoPs adaption of Cassandra was underwhelming. JL:Mortal had a much better role for Max.

Tangentially related - I wish we'd gotten JL: Mortal for many reasons (a George Miller-directed JL movie would've been awesome, WB/DC wouldn't be in shambles right now...) but mostly it would've kept WW's image from getting screwed so badly. The sword lady daughter of Zeus thing never would've made it to the mainstream and Max Lord would be considered a Batman villain.

Also the Superman vs. Wonder Woman fight in the script sounded absolutely bananas. At one point she grabs him by the hair, flies him into space, and throws him into the moon...that is Cinema.

It probably wouldn't have led to a solo WW film that was as good as the 2017 movie, but I'd gladly forfeit that if it meant we could erase the Zack Snyder movies and WW84 from existence.

[WonderLight789]

Other than the aforementioned Sacrifice arc? Batman comes across as a complete jackass in Hiketeia.



Tangentially related - I wish we'd gotten JL: Mortal for many reasons (a George Miller-directed JL movie would've been awesome, WB/DC wouldn't be in shambles right now...) but mostly it would've kept WW's image from getting screwed so badly. The sword lady daughter of Zeus thing never would've made it to the mainstream and Max Lord would be considered a Batman villain.

Also the Superman vs. Wonder Woman fight in the script sounded absolutely bananas. At one point she grabs him by the hair, flies him into space, and throws him into the moon...that is Cinema.

It probably wouldn't have led to a solo WW film that was as good as the 2017 movie, but I'd gladly forfeit that if it meant we could erase the Zack Snyder movies and WW84 from existence.

batman is a jackass very often, and specially towards Diana.

[BiteTheBullet]

WW vs. Mary Marvel

3 months of training and the ruthless efficiency of Shiva. That is all it takes to beat Wonder Woman who has trained as a warrior her whole life.

I guess martial arts training (in 3 months or less) trumps whatever they learn in skills on Themyscria.

[Gaius]

I'm not saying there wasn't, just that in the context of his use I think it worked.

Well, it goes the other way around too though? Like Batman and Superman coming off unlikable and uncompromising in the context of a WW narrative where the readers would obviously side more with Diana.

Not saying there haven't been (Hiketeia probably the most notable) but show me a WW story that's had as negative an impact on Bats and Supes characterizations as Kingdom Come and Sacrifice/Infinite Crisis did on WW.

Even if you think those two are written unfairly also in Sacrifice/Infinite Crisis, the story ultimately sided with them with Diana pretty much admitting she was wrong. You don't see people pretending Brother Eye is some iconic moment/character in Batman mythos like they do with a certain piece of cardboard for WW.

[Agent Z]

Other than the aforementioned Sacrifice arc? Batman comes across as a complete jackass in Hiketeia.



Tangentially related - I wish we'd gotten JL: Mortal for many reasons (a George Miller-directed JL movie would've been awesome, WB/DC wouldn't be in shambles right now...) but mostly it would've kept WW's image from getting screwed so badly. The sword lady daughter of Zeus thing never would've made it to the mainstream and Max Lord would be considered a Batman villain.

Also the Superman vs. Wonder Woman fight in the script sounded absolutely bananas. At one point she grabs him by the hair, flies him into space, and throws him into the moon...that is Cinema.

It probably wouldn't have led to a solo WW film that was as good as the 2017 movie, but I'd gladly forfeit that if it meant we could erase the Zack Snyder movies and WW84 from existence.

Mortal wasn't particularly good from what I've read and had issues of its own. It also wouldn't have prethe New 52 relaunch which is what lead to Diana being Zeus's daughter. And pacifist Diana doesn't make anymore sense than warmonger Diana.

[Primal Slayer]

3 months of training and the ruthless efficiency of Shiva. That is all it takes to beat Wonder Woman who has trained as a warrior her whole life.

I guess martial arts training (in 3 months or less) trumps whatever they learn in skills on Themyscria.

Or just being a zombie makes your fighting crap

[Gaius]

Mortal didn't sound all that good. Probably better than the films we got (I haven't seen the Whedon version for ) for reference) but that's not hard.

But it would have been worth it for pawning off Max Lord and the neck snap onto Batman. Would have been great.

[Guy_McNichts]

So fighting skill trumps savage brute force. Except earlier in the series fighting skill was no use against zombie Superman's savage brute force.
Funny how Diana is on the receiving end of both sides of the spectrum.

Kind of illustrates the weird no man's land certain writers (like Taylor) put Wonder Woman in where she's strong, but not strong enough to be a match for the actual powerhouses, and skilled, but not so skilled it will ever make a difference.
I mean, IIRC, Taylor also had Batwoman kicking Diana's ass over in Injustice.


As for Justice League: Mortal...it might've been better than the Justice League movie(s) we did get, but I still wouldn't have cared for it.

I know lots of users here don't like the Max Lord bit, but at least in Sacrifice, Diana is the active agent in the story. She holds her own against Superman and makes the choice to kill Max. It only gives rise to "angry sword woman" if you ignore literally all the context Greg Rucka put into the story...which, admittedly, Geoff Johns promptly did in Infinite Crisis.
Meanwhile, in JL: Mortal, she gets her ass kicked by Superman and Batman saves the day by making the hard decision. She's just a casualty in Clark and Bruce's loveless marriage.

It stuns me that we were doomed to see Wonder Woman get put in her place in live action regardless of director. Like Jon Peters giant spider...that s*** was going to happen no matter what or where.


I know its fruitless to hope, but I would really be happy if we never see another Justice League movie ever again. None of Diana's good League stories (all one and a half of them, and frankly I don't think either are anything to shout about) or moments are worth the deluge of absolute garbage her affiliation with that team has dumped on her.

Let's call a spade a spade...the only thing Wonder Woman has ever gotten from being involved with the Justice League is "exposure." Nothing more.
And ask any freelance artist what exposure's actually worth and they'll tell you not much, if anything.

[WonderLight789]

Or just being a zombie makes your fighting crap

And i guess being a vampire. Or just being WW in general. Because in DCeased, JL movie, league of one, SM/WW, flashpoint etc. We have had plenty of WW moments getting defeated easily by superman, mary marvel, aquaman, mongul, etc. So i guess she is not that strong and skilled after all. And i guess it is easuier for writers to remember that somebody like mary has gofdly powers, whle they forget that WW has godly powers too.

[Mel Dyer]

3 months of training and the ruthless efficiency of Shiva. That is all it takes to beat Wonder Woman who has trained as a warrior her whole life.

I guess martial arts training (in 3 months or less) trumps whatever they learn in skills on Themyscria.

Wow! Can we just acknowledge for a minute, that some (men) writers just HATE Wonder Woman being second-in-power-ONLY-to-Superman?

Now, in our fan community, we know Diana has a healing factor that would see her, mere seconds after this rough patch, reappearing behind Mary and beating the living crap out of her, ..lightning or NO lightning! Obviously, whoever edited this comic didn't explain to the writer, that just because Shazam (aka, Captain Marvel) whooped up on Superman in Kingdom Come, doesn't mean his twin sister can kick WW's @$$...no! Having a big, yellow LED lightning bolt on your chest doesn't make you Superman's equal or give you the power to beat Wonder Woman.

Creo que no, bidges.

Billy and Mary may be equals, but, Shazam and Mary are not equals, ..because, unlike Shazam, Mary isn't second-in-power-ONLY-to-Superman. It seems to me, and way too often, that comic editors have a serious problem, with establishing WW as a top-drawer DCU powerhouse. It seems there are more than a few writers (typically dudes), who feel compelled to create challenges to Wonder Woman's power, and always from lower-ranking superheroes, ..in a confrontation way, which Superman is rarely written into.

There's always some male writer, it seems, using a comic book story to take Wonder Woman down a peg, ..and why is that? It's creepy. What's the problem with Wonder Woman being powerful?

[BiteTheBullet]

Wow! Can we just acknowledge for a minute, that some (men) writers just HATE Wonder Woman being second-in-power-ONLY-to-Superman?

Now, in our fan community, we know Diana has a healing factor that would see her, mere seconds after this rough patch, reappearing behind Mary and beating the living crap out of her, ..lightning or NO lightning! Obviously, whoever edited this comic didn't explain to the writer, that just because Shazam (aka, Captain Marvel) whooped up on Superman in Kingdom Come, doesn't mean his twin sister can kick WW's @$$...no! Having a big, yellow LED lightning bolt on your chest doesn't make you Superman's equal or give you the power to beat Wonder Woman.

Creo que no, bidges.

Billy and Mary may be equals, but, Shazam and Mary are not equals, ..because, unlike Shazam, Mary isn't second-in-power-ONLY-to-Superman. It seems to me, and way too often, that comic editors have a serious problem, with establishing WW as a top-drawer DCU powerhouse. It seems there are more than a few writers (typically dudes), who feel compelled to create challenges to Wonder Woman's power, and always from lower-ranking superheroes, ..in a confrontation way, which Superman is rarely written into.

There's always some male writer, it seems, using a comic book story to take Wonder Woman down a peg, ..and why is that? It's creepy. What's the problem with Wonder Woman being powerful?

Doesn't matter what the fan community might think or want, it's what the writers and artists and editors do that churn out these comics with Wonder Woman on the losing end, whether it comes from the Super family or the Marvel family (or the Bat family).

[Gaius]

So fighting skill trumps savage brute force. Except earlier in the series fighting skill was no use against zombie Superman's savage brute force.
Funny how Diana is on the receiving end of both sides of the spectrum.

Kind of illustrates the weird no man's land certain writers (like Taylor) put Wonder Woman in where she's strong, but not strong enough to be a match for the actual powerhouses, and skilled, but not so skilled it will ever make a difference.
I mean, IIRC, Taylor also had Batwoman kicking Diana's ass over in Injustice.
.

Yep. Taylor's writing provides the best evidence that "Superman's stronger but she's more skilled" is nothing more than lip service that exists for Superman's benefit when it comes to most writers.

And I think the Batwoman thing was because they were on the Underdog (totally not-steroid) magic pills. Because Injustice is a serious story that deals with serious issues.

[Perseus]

So fighting skill trumps savage brute force. Except earlier in the series fighting skill was no use against zombie Superman's savage brute force.
Funny how Diana is on the receiving end of both sides of the spectrum.

Kind of illustrates the weird no man's land certain writers (like Taylor) put Wonder Woman in where she's strong, but not strong enough to be a match for the actual powerhouses, and skilled, but not so skilled it will ever make a difference.
I mean, IIRC, Taylor also had Batwoman kicking Diana's ass over in Injustice.

And the fact that some people refuse to see this or just brush it under pisses the crap out of me. Its right there, right in front of you, none of these writers are talented enough to be subtle about it.

[Primal Slayer]