Wonder Woman - General Discussion

[Will Evans]

Yeah, I remember a lot of "When does Diana get a kid?" entirely because of Jon Kent and the Super-Sons book. Which I can only thank all the Goddesses of all the pantheons hasn't happened yet given my feelings towards the World's Finest offspring.

But yeah, feels like WW's just given similar stuff because Superman, Batman, or other heroes have them. Regardless of whether it makes sense to her or not; kid teen sidekick, WW being a legacy mantle, secret I.D. after not having one, fake comic book city. It does work sometimes imo, such as pairing Artemis with the Outlaws as respective "black sheep" but that seems more a happy accident than anything else.

Perez actually talked about this in some interviews he did at 'cons saying he thought stuff like that only made WW more of just "Superman but a girl" then whatever her powers were.

Well, at least Diana has her parent Hippolyta as a mom, who was out there kicking ass as well. Something the other franchises didn’t have.


At least not until recently, when the Batman franchise deciding to copy Wonder Woman and make Thomas Wayne into the Flashpoint Batman. ��

[Perseus]

'Tis sarcasm. Saying it's silly that people will demand she have all of the same stuff as Superman (the secret identity, the lair, the fictional city, the spouse and kid, etc.) but draw the line at pretty sensible updates to her already-derivative power set.

In general the classic superhero trappings make no sense for her. Why would she be tethered to a city when she's an immortal outsider who can be anywhere in a matter of minutes? Why would she have a strong secret ID when she has no mortal roots and her whole deal is making people tell the truth? Why would she have a Batcave or a Fortress of Solitude when she doesn't work in secret and shares her lore with the Amazons? Why would she settle down with a husband and kids when she was raised collectively by a community that resists the traditional concept of marriage?

That said, I'm not opposed to her having a kid when/if it makes sense in the story (which it hasn't yet and doesn't now), I'm just opposed to her having a nuclear family. I did like the idea of the Diana's Daughter BL book Greg Rucka wanted to do, though - it's too bad he couldn't make it work.

To be fair to the bolded points:

The city is more for her earth-bound allies more than anything else. Yes, we'd eventually have iconic placing in the city (Marstan University, Frozen Justice: frozen yogurt shop, Taco Wiz, ARGUS, Cale Industries, etc..) but it's mainly for the embassy group, Cassie, Steve, Ferdinand, Etta and so on. It's so they can be focused on and keep grounded, not really Diana. Superman can also be anywhere in the universe in minutes, but Metropolis is where Jimmy and Lois are.

I view Diana having a family with a husband and kids the way Emma D'Arcy views Rhaenyra having a family - " I think despite her questions about motherhood, what she discovers in having children is that she gets to build a tribe of her own. And actually, finds a space where she feels free to be herself, and that's in this family unit that she builds." It doesn't need to be nuclear but, not many comic book hero families are (looking at you Batman) I think Diana actually being a mother would be a surprising development. But she just isn't in that spot at the moment.

[Frontier]

Wasn't there going to be a Greg Rucka series titled "Diana's Daughter?" Or was that completely canceled?

Personally, I blame Batman because sometimes I feel this happens with Superman as well. Like sometimes I get the feeling they want to give him a super-family to go with the Robins, some people want Supergirl to be Clark's sidekick/have the palce that Dick Grayson had as the first Robin towards Batman but towards Superman (even though she was compeltely different) etc etc.

The Batman-ization fo some of these characters goes in very different ways, beyond the tested-and-failed "let's make them darker".

Functionally she's not that different though.

[Gaius]

Personally, I blame Batman because sometimes I feel this happens with Superman as well. Like sometimes I get the feeling they want to give him a super-family to go with the Robins, some people want Supergirl to be Clark's sidekick/have the palce that Dick Grayson had as the first Robin towards Batman but towards Superman (even though she was compeltely different) etc etc.

The Batman-ization fo some of these characters goes in very different ways, beyond the tested-and-failed "let's make them darker".

Yes, seems in addition to being all having their own families they have be modeled after Bats too, This is pretty much why Cassie exists, because there was a Superboy and Robin III running around in the 90s.

Like I said, sometimes it works like with Artemis and Jason both occupying similar character types but that they were developed independently given he was a dead 12 year old when she was created.

Wasn't there going to be a Greg Rucka series titled "Diana's Daughter?" Or was that completely canceled?

Yes, Rucka couldn't get the story to work and so he shelved it. He didn't completely say it'll never happen but I wouldn't go about assuming it's still any form of production.

I wouldn't be surprised if he was approached similar to KSD was for Historia where DC wanted a list of impressive creator names to put in the BL announcement trailer long before any of their stories would have been ready to go.

[Frontier]

Yes, seems in addition to being all having their own families they have be modeled after Bats too, This is pretty much why Cassie exists, because there was a Superboy and Robin III running around in the 90s.

Was that a confirmed reason why Byrne created her?

It's not even just a Bat-thing though, most DC properties have sidekicks/protege type characters.

Yes, Rucka couldn't get the story to work and so he shelved it. He didn't completely say it'll never happen but I wouldn't go about assuming it's still any form of production.

I wouldn't be surprised if he was approached similar to KSD was for Historia where DC wanted a list of impressive creator names to put in the BL announcement trailer long before any of their stories would have been ready to go.

Got it.

[Gaius]

Was that a confirmed reason why Byrne created her?

It's not even just a Bat-thing though, most DC properties have sidekicks/protege type characters.

I think the most Byrne ever talked about the creation of the Sandsmarks was he didn't think anyone outside of Perez should have used the Kapatelis family. Why he then made them direct duplicates is anyone's guess. But I imagine other DC youngsters popping up around the same time probably played a factor.

Yes, I'm not denying it goes beyond the Bat-family but it's definitely the model everyone talks about when they say they want a massive hero community that all share some theme between them.

Like Bardkeep says, not every superhero trope is applicable to Diana imo. Whatever those ones being of course up the individual.

[Frontier]

I think the most Byrne ever talked about the creation of the Sandsmarks was he didn't think anyone outside of Perez should have used the Kapatelis family. Why he then made them direct duplicates is anyone's guess. But I imagine other DC youngsters popping up around the same time probably played a factor.

Yes, I'm not denying it goes beyond the Bat-family but it's definitely the model everyone talks about when they say they want a massive hero community that all share some theme between them.

Like Bardkeep says, not every superhero trope is applicable to Diana imo. Whatever those ones being of course up the individual.

I like to view the Sandsmarks as more of a contrast to the Kapatelis than direct dubplicates, because there are definitely differences.

[Vordan]

'Tis sarcasm. Saying it's silly that people will demand she have all of the same stuff as Superman (the secret identity, the lair, the fictional city, the spouse and kid, etc.) but draw the line at pretty sensible updates to her already-derivative power set.

In general the classic superhero trappings make no sense for her. Why would she be tethered to a city when she's an immortal outsider who can be anywhere in a matter of minutes? Why would she have a strong secret ID when she has no mortal roots and her whole deal is making people tell the truth? Why would she have a Batcave or a Fortress of Solitude when she doesn't work in secret and shares her lore with the Amazons? Why would she settle down with a husband and kids when she was raised collectively by a community that resists the traditional concept of marriage?

That said, I'm not opposed to her having a kid when/if it makes sense in the story (which it hasn't yet and doesn't now), I'm just opposed to her having a nuclear family. I did like the idea of the Diana's Daughter BL book Greg Rucka wanted to do, though - it's too bad he couldn't make it work.

Well the bases are less about “working in secret” and moreso about just having a place for the hero to put trophies, indulge their hobbies, gather with their allies, and basically use it to show off their character. I think they’re cool and Diana benefits from having more cool stuff. I agree with the rest of your post however, especially with regards to a secret identity which has always felt silly and pointless for Diana in contrast to Clark and Bruce.

[Mel Dyer]

Well the bases are less about “working in secret” and moreso about just having a place for the hero to put trophies, indulge their hobbies, gather with their allies, and basically use it to show off their character. I think they’re cool and Diana benefits from having more cool stuff. I agree with the rest of your post however, especially with regards to a secret identity which has always felt silly and pointless for Diana in contrast to Clark and Bruce.

The secret ID thing? It made sense in World War II, when Washington, DC was the capital of our war effort, and being there, disguised as Military Intelligence, gave her access to the latest developments in overseas conflicts. If some writer could frame a super-Washington, a DC characterized by larger-than-life or fantastical visual elements to enhance its presence in the comic - an X-filesy city - it might make sense for Wonder Woman to be there, today.

Otherwise...not much use for the secret ID or much point being in Washington, DC.

Etta Candy lives in a part of Washington, DC called 'Georgetown'. Re-imagined as a separate super-Washington, Georgetown could be the X-files capital of the DCU.

I think we just want some familiar things that we look forward to seeing, when we read Wonder Woman, ..like everybody else, who reads comics. Washington, DC is certainly iconic, but not for anything having to do with WW, and that's obvious to us. I hate it that we, as WW fans, have been put in the position of considering things, which other fandoms take for granted - a regular cast [?], some cool vehicles, familiar settings - as being special, strange or asking too much of the comic. That's messed up, and we're starting to check each other on this stuff, ..as if we need to be talked down from something crazy.

Maybe, WW doesn't need a CAST. Why does every comic need...? Can you imagine the readers of Superman, Batman or Spider-Man comics asking themselves, if their comics needed a CAST? Listen to us. That's insane.

The readers of Superman comics have enjoyed having Metropolis and Smallville for SO long, the creative team can actually afford to move the story out of Metropolis, without messing up the comic. Clark and Lois can go raise their kid in a small town, somewhere, while readers understand Metropolis still belongs to Superman. Comparatively, even Spider-Man has the Daily Bugle - even when we don't see it, we can sigh in reassurance, that the Bugle is there, ..just because it feels good! Why can't we just want this stuff, because we like it, when we see it in other comics ..or superhero movies?

Let a creative team try moving Superman to Boston and giving Metropolis to Black Adam or Martian Manhunter and see what Superfans will do. I'd like to see them try!

Can you imagine Batfans asking themselves what the Bm comic needed with a ROGUES gallery? I've actually heard my fellow fans here muse, that WW might not need an archenemy, because her Wonder-goodness converts bad guys into heroic ones. Can you imagine ANY-body asking themselves what Batman needed with the JOKER, ..after Tim Burton's 1989 Batman?

Yeah. "Who needs stinkin' Joker or the stupid BAT-SIGNAL?! Pesky fans...ungrateful wretches."

I think we want cool, futuristic vehicles, ..magical weapons, ..familiar AND interesting locales, which tell us we're in our favorite character's town, like every comic fandom does. In some of our conversations here about WW finally getting a fictional iconic town of her own, you'd think we were asking for something unreasonable ..or crazy. I think we want some of that stuff, because the most popular comic books in the world are distinguished by such things, and we think, "Why not WONDER WOMAN? Why not us?"

Maybe, we want something or somethings that tell us, on sight, we're reading a WW comic! Some cool things, besides Paradise Island and the plane, that make the Wonderverse feel especially ours. I think we're okay.

[Agent Z]

The secret ID thing? It made sense in World War II, when Washington, DC was the capital of our war effort, and being there, disguised as Military Intelligence, gave her access to the latest developments in overseas conflicts.

I think we just want some familiar things that we look forward to seeing, when we read Wonder Woman, ..like everybody else, who reads comics. Washington, DC is certainly iconic, but not for anything having to do with WW, and that's obvious to us. I hate it that we, as WW fans, have been put in the position of considering things, which other fandoms take for granted - a regular cast [?], some cool vehicles, familiar settings - as being special, strange or asking too much of the comic. That's messed up, and we're starting to check each other on this stuff...

Maybe, WW doesn't a CAST. Why does every comic...? Can you imagine the readers of Superman, Batman or Spider-Man comics asking themselves, if their comics needed a CAST? Listen to us. That's insane.

The readers of Superman comics have enjoyed having Metropolis and Smallville for SO long, the creative team can actually afford to move the story out of Metropolis, without messing up the comic. Clark and Lois can go raise their kid in a small town, somewhere, while readers understand Metropolis still belongs to Superman. Comparatively, even Spider-Man has the Daily Bugle - even when we don't see it, we can sigh in reassurance, that the Bugle is there, ..just because it feels good! Let a creative team try moving Superman to Boston and giving Metropolis to Black Adam or Martian Manhunter and see what Superfans will do. I'd like to see them try!

I think we want cool, futuristic vehicles, ..magical weapons, ..familiar AND interesting locales, which tell us we're in our favorite character's town, like every comic fandom does.

I think we want something or somethings that tell us, on sight, we're reading a WW comic. Some cool things, besides Paradise Island and the plane, that make the Wonderverse feel especially ours.

No WW fan has ever said any of this.

[Shimbo]

No WW fan has ever said any of this.

That's incredibly dismissive of Mel Dyer's points, which have definitely been expressed by more than just him on this board. While I don't always agree with Mr. Dyer, I do when it comes to wanting more tech-y and magic-y Amazons, a consistent and interesting supporting cast of characters, and cool locations specific to the Wonder mythos. I don't understand refuting that these things are desired by many Wonder fans...because they are and would help further develop Diana and her world.

[Mel Dyer]

That's incredibly dismissive of Mel Dyer's points, which have definitely been expressed by more than just him on this board. While I don't always agree with Mr. Dyer, I do when it comes to wanting more tech-y and magic-y Amazons, a consistent and interesting supporting cast of characters, and cool locations specific to the Wonder mythos. I don't understand refuting that these things are desired by many Wonder fans...because they are and would help further develop Diana and her world.

There's a GREAT Wonder Woman historian and fellow fan in our community, named Carol A. Strickland, who does most of her posting on Facebook, now. I used to agree with almost everything she said, and what she said, that I didn't agree with, made so much sense that I couldn't post an argument with it, ..without looking completely obtuse!

So, sometimes I'd pick one of her most sensible points and make some stupid challenge to it, just to mess with her and have a conversation with her, ..because I loved her. We all did, who loved WW the most - still do. Carol would look at those insane babblings of mine and just ignore them, ..and eventually, I'd admit..."Just spoofin' you, Carol!"

I don't agree, with everything that everyone says. What I take issue with is another postor's willful mischaracterization of something I wrote ..or attacking something, under the false pretext that their politics entitles them to do so. I don't suffer fools, divas, sacred cows or bullies - we don't owe these people anything.

Now, Carol Strickland? She encountered any and everyone of them on any given day, right here on these forums. She packed off more than a few to the big Google rainbow in the sky ..and froze out the rest! Just completely ignored them. Buried them, like Power Girl blowing out a volcano, with one puff! What a class act, she was! I learned a lot from Carol.

A lot.

https://www.carolastrickland.com/com...ral/index.html

One of the things I learned about, from Carol, is how legendary Wonder-editor Robert Kanigher impacted the WW comic, in the 1950s, ..after Wonder-creator Dr. William Marston died. The Silver Age Fifties was when the DCU of today was first taking shape. While the warm familiarity of Gotham City, Central City, Coast City, Ivy City, Metropolis, Midway City and Gateway City ..and their association with the new Hawkman, Green Lantern, Atom, Flash and the Spectre, ..Bob Kanigher's world-building basically stopped at Paradise Island. His cool, iconic vehicles stopped at the Invisible Plane, ..and he neglected to develop any archenemy for Diana, at all. So, YES - we want cool stuff and stuff that we enjoy in other comics, in WW, ..because Kanigher's twenty or so years on this comic really left it behind Superman's, Batman's and the others!

Hell! Fantastic Four has the Baxter Building for fans to look for, every time they pick up FF! We don't even have a stupid, iconic BUILDING - Washington Monument belongs to everyone...doesn't count - that belongs to the Wonderverse, specifically. That's pretty sucky, comparatively.

The current creators give me hope, that we might catch up, sooner, than later. I don't think wanting all that makes us weird.

[Agent Z]

That's incredibly dismissive of Mel Dyer's points, which have definitely been expressed by more than just him on this board. While I don't always agree with Mr. Dyer, I do when it comes to wanting more tech-y and magic-y Amazons, a consistent and interesting supporting cast of characters, and cool locations specific to the Wonder mythos. I don't understand refuting that these things are desired by many Wonder fans...because they are and would help further develop Diana and her world.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. What I meant was, "No WW fan has ever said we don't want cool vehicles, a consistent supporting cast, a rogues gallery etc". This is an argument Mel Dyer has made several times and I don't know what he's basing it on. It some times feels like he's arguing against a straw man that doesn't exist.

[Mel Dyer]

I'm not going to dignify the response, I just read, with a response or a quote.

It was posted with the assumption that the rest of us are too lazy or stupid to read what I actually wrote ..or to read anything, anywhere else, that might inform our opinions. Everyone here can scroll up two, three or four posts to what I took good time to share, because I respect and appreciate my community, ..and see everything in that response to my post is a straight-up lie. It's not a misinterpretation or nuanced argument. Just a blownoucherbutt, stanky lie.

Any thinking person can see that.

We don't need to take another postor's words and mischaracterize them, when we know what the hell we're talking about, ..because we read and think. So, here you go...

...I think we just want some familiar things that we look forward to seeing, when we read Wonder Woman, ..like everybody else, who reads comics. Washington, DC is certainly iconic, but not for anything having to do with WW, and that's obvious to us. I hate it that we, as WW fans, have been put in the position of considering things, which other fandoms take for granted - a regular cast [?], some cool vehicles, familiar settings - as being special, strange or asking too much of the comic. That's messed up, and we're starting to check each other on this stuff, ..as if we need to be talked down from something crazy.

Maybe, WW doesn't need a CAST. Why does every comic need...? Can you imagine the readers of Superman, Batman or Spider-Man comics asking themselves, if their comics needed a CAST? Listen to us. That's insane.

The readers of Superman comics have enjoyed having Metropolis and Smallville for SO long, the creative team can actually afford to move the story out of Metropolis, without messing up the comic. Clark and Lois can go raise their kid in a small town, somewhere, while readers understand Metropolis still belongs to Superman. Comparatively, even Spider-Man has the Daily Bugle - even when we don't see it, we can sigh in reassurance, that the Bugle is there, ..just because it feels good! Why can't we just want this stuff, because we like it, when we see it in other comics ..or superhero movies?...

Any thinking person here can click the link below, visit my blog and read everything I've ever discussed here. Wondaflamin'bunga! Look alive, kangaliers!

[bardkeep]

Sorry, I should have been more clear. What I meant was, "No WW fan has ever said we don't want cool vehicles, a consistent supporting cast, a rogues gallery etc". This is an argument Mel Dyer has made several times and I don't know what he's basing it on. It some times feels like he's arguing against a straw man that doesn't exist.

I'm the type of fan he's talking about, lol. I obviously care about her having great villains and a solid supporting cast (though I think Mel knows I totally disagree with his approach), but I like Themyscira and the Embassy as home bases much more than a fictional mortal city and I dig the cool gadgets and weapons/vehicles but they only seriously impact my enjoyment of a story when they have narrative significance, e.g. Phil Jimenez's reimagined Themyscira or the military conflict over Amazon tech in Rucka's Post-Crisis run. But I think we can all agree that magical animals are a must. You'd have to be a damn fool to not use kangas!

Honestly demand for conventional cape stuff among WW fans is interesting to me because it's all pretty firmly rooted in SA nostalgia. As Mel said, Kanigher bogarted that entire era and stunted any development, so I can't quite suss out why someone who really digs SA conventions would be drawn to her in the first place. There's a reason why Mark Waid famously doesn't get her - dude's all about the good ol'-fashioned funnybooks, so he doesn't know what to do with a character who's never successfully fit that mold.

The closest she has is the GA lore, but it didn't have a lot of the stuff people are talking about. Marston went all in on the cool sci-fi stuff and gave her a huge world with tons of interesting villains, but she didn't have her own city, a secret fortress, or a tight supporting cast. Her only regular locale was Paradise Island, the Diana Prince ID was paper-thin, Steve was an intentionally lame love interest, and she had an awesome supporting cast but it was a huge revolving door with Steve, the Holliday Girls, and the Amazons.

My favorite WW stories (e.g. Historia, Gods & Mortals, Strangers in Paradise, Down to Earth/Eyes of the Gorgon) are the thoughtful epics that focus on myth meeting modernity and/or dig into Amazon lore, but if someone's going all in on classic superhero world-building I'd personally want an approach that modernizes her rich, unique GA mythos rather than one that tries to make up for her lost Silver Age.