Wonder Woman - General Discussion

[BiteTheBullet]

And some people think the video game Diana is beautiful and like the varied appearance, which does nothing to erase the other depictions.

So what is even the point to any of this?

I would love to see a poll of the percentage of people who think the video game Diana is ' beautiful." Or even a poll who people think is hotter based on the Suicide Squad videogame, Diana or Harley Quinn?

But you know, let's get the 'model' who is the face for the Wonder Woman character in the game and cast her as the new live action Wonder Woman. I mean, that is basically what some are saying should happen. It's probably a good thing that her comic book sales are in the low 30,000 to 20,000 range versus the amount of people that know her through TV or the movies. To say that people expect a certain 'look' for her in media besides comics is a certainty for me.

[Gaius]

I would love to see a poll of the percentage of people who think the video game Diana is ' beautiful." Or even a poll who people think is hotter based on the Suicide Squad videogame, Diana or Harley Quinn?

But you know, let's get the 'model' who is the face for the Wonder Woman character in the game and cast her as the new live action Wonder Woman. I mean, that is basically what some are saying should happen. It's probably a good thing that her comic book sales are in the low 30,000 to 20,000 range versus the amount of people that know her through TV or the movies. To say that people expect a certain 'look' for her in media besides comics is a certainty for me.

Careful now.

You're responding to a poster, not the Scarecrow. So not a strawman.

[Agent Z]

It's a slippery slope, when you let stuff slide you end up with Cathy Lee Crosby or Adrianne Palicki as Wonder Woman. There has to be a standard.

Crosby not looking like Diana was the least of that pilot's issues. Palicki looks like the Wonder Woman you wanted but that didn't help the writing of her pilot, which shows how meaningless looks are compared to other, more important qualities.

The standard for a good depiction of Wonder Woman should not begin and end with how attractive she is.

[AlexLyo]

Ok, I am trying to wade through this discussion to understand what I'm hearing, because it feels like loads of projection and conflation is going on to complicate it. Bear with me while I try to check my understanding.

For some, I'm hearing that there's a preference for Diana to be depicted physically with characteristics that are consistent with how they believe she has been depicted the majority of the time in the past - pale skin, dark hair, blue eyes etc.

For some, difference from these characteristics is no big deal.

For some, difference from depicting her with (some, or all of) these characteristics is preferable.

For some this is particularly the case if the shifts adhere to personal preferences or understandings of what would "fit" for Diana based on things like the cultures her story draws from (e.g. Ancient Greece) or what she does with her time (e.g. physical activity). This is where I'm hearing some of the interest in her having a darker skin tone, or dark eyes, or where ideas about her facial features and physique come in. Some may also feel that these depictions are helpful contributions to a wider discussion of representation of women in media. And for some, all of these physical aspects that differ from the "white skin, blue eyes" depiction also have precedent in comics and other media that have depicted her in these ways before, so aren't felt to be particularly controversial depictions of Diana anyway.

Where I'm hearing conflation happening, is where any of these preferences are being argued to be "more" or "less beautiful" than others, or even just "better", beyond the realms of personal opinion. I'm hearing where drawing on an imaginary "majority" to reinforce a personal view as true might start to come in, which feels like dangerous territory. Even if 99 of 100 people believe something, it doesn't make it "objectively true", it's a widely held belief.

This conflation of personal preference with what's objectively or even agreeably beautiful gets more complicated when the notion of Diana being "as beautiful as Aphrodite" comes in, because it seems to add a layer of imperative that somehow there *is* an objective beauty, and Diana should adhere to it. (Sidenote: it's interesting how often this line continues to be interpreted as referring to Diana's physical form and not her beauty as a person in other ways, but I digress).


Where I think I'm hearing projection, is where assumptions (I think) are being made about why people have the preferences they have, what they think about other things, what it indicates about their politics, and how authentic those politics or beliefs are.

I have deliberately not name checked or quoted here, because I am curious to see what of the above is resonating with people, and also what I am overlooking or missing about where people stand. I ask because there's some heat and flippancy seeping into this conversation that I don't think is necessary if there's effort to get clear about what we're up to.

Am I hearing things deeply enough here? Or missing things entirely?

[Perseus]

I could have sworn Diana has told a lesson about how societal standards of beauty are often conflated and put a ton of pressure on people, girls in particular, to look a certain way. I also see not many people here took that lesson to heart.

Literally out here complaining that a magic Greek woman who comes from an island full of other magic Greek women.... isn't white enough and this means that she isn't pretty enough to be called Wonder Woman. Like get a grip. Frankly Diana should have a more olive skin tone, she should also have Grey eyes if we're sticking to continuity. It's not the end of the world if Diana is presented as having olive skin, unless there is some specific reason as to why Diana shouldn't have olive skin that isn't just "it's NoT WonDer WoMan" rebranded.

[Koriand'r]

I could have sworn Diana has told a lesson about how societal standards of beauty are often conflated and put a ton of pressure on people, girls in particular, to look a certain way. I also see not many people here took that lesson to heart.

Literally out here complaining that a magic Greek woman who comes from an island full of other magic Greek women.... isn't white enough and this means that she isn't pretty enough to be called Wonder Woman. Like get a grip. Frankly Diana should have a more olive skin tone, she should also have Grey eyes if we're sticking to continuity. It's not the end of the world if Diana is presented as having olive skin, unless there is some specific reason as to why Diana shouldn't have olive skin that isn't just "it's NoT WonDer WoMan" rebranded.

Wait a minute, no one said that. Not even close, and let the record show I never said Diana needed pale skin for accuracy. It's a lack of blue eyes that's the deal breaker to me. Ororo Munroe has blue eyes and for my money she's far more beautiful than Diana of Themyscira.

[Garrac]

So, Im just rereading Willow Wilson's era, and noticed that in this run in exchange of freeing Giganta for a time, Wondie has to owe something to Amanda Waller. Has someone ever used this plot line, or has it joined the "Wonder Woman frustrated plots" along with Liar Liar being manipulated by his father to resurrect, Dr Psycho manipulating Vanessa, or the end of the Stephanie Philips comic? Can't remember it now.

Also, I'm noticing this run really had good ideas... but the art is really on a looooooooooooooooooooow moment. Even lower than on Robinson's run, which is a lot to say. Ares causing a civil war, or the themes about how Wonder Woman should release her powers more, all of those are interesting themes, but it's just, the art disserves the scripts a lot, Gary Nord most of all feels like he was doing a poor work here. It's not that Willow Wilson was doing her best either, tho, because there are still weird things here and there, plots unused, and in general you can feel the woman was generating plots that ended in three numbers because she wanted to jump to the next one as quickly as possible.

[SiegePerilous02]

It's a slippery slope, when you let stuff slide you end up with Cathy Lee Crosby or Adrianne Palicki as Wonder Woman. There has to be a standard.

Palicki looks like the Diana you claim to want though.

I would love to see a poll of the percentage of people who think the video game Diana is ' beautiful." Or even a poll who people think is hotter based on the Suicide Squad videogame, Diana or Harley Quinn?

But you know, let's get the 'model' who is the face for the Wonder Woman character in the game and cast her as the new live action Wonder Woman. I mean, that is basically what some are saying should happen. It's probably a good thing that her comic book sales are in the low 30,000 to 20,000 range versus the amount of people that know her through TV or the movies. To say that people expect a certain 'look' for her in media besides comics is a certainty for me.

Hate to break it to you, but Harley is always winning a hotness poll against Diana among the general public. Being the Hot Topic Hotty/femme fatale is one of her big selling points.

Also, why the insecurity in asking for a poll? Can't people just find this Diana beautiful even if people disagree with them? It's not like this is the only video game depiction of her you're going to get, the teaser video for her solo game shows her looking different.

Wait a minute, no one said that. Not even close, and let the record show I never said Diana needed pale skin for accuracy. It's a lack of blue eyes that's the deal breaker to me. Ororo Munroe has blue eyes and for my money she's far more beautiful than Diana of Themyscira.

Well she has blue eyes in the video game.

And you provided examples of Greek models with paler skin to adhere to the general iconic look, so why shouldn't people come away with the impression that you need that for accuracy?

[Nyssane]

Also, I'm noticing this run really had good ideas... but the art is really on a looooooooooooooooooooow moment.

Totally agree. I thought the Giganta story was really fun but the art was not my cup of tea in the slightest. I can't stand how the artist depicted Giganta as a super thin woman.

[Garrac]

Totally agree. I thought the Giganta story was really fun but the art was not my cup of tea in the slightest. I can't stand how the artist depicted Giganta as a super thin woman.

Its like:

Willow Wilson: Here, Im going to be the first writer since Simone that will get to get deep on Giganta's lore and characterization as a troubled woman that just wants to survive on a capitalist world

Gary Nord: Here, um, fellas, I, uff, Im goin throu the worst moment in my whole career, I dunno, take this panels where Giganta is suposed to be giant but from such a weird perspective that she just seems 3 meters tall, and um, uf, bah *leaves*

[Agent Z]

Ok, I am trying to wade through this discussion to understand what I'm hearing, because it feels like loads of projection and conflation is going on to complicate it. Bear with me while I try to check my understanding.

For some, I'm hearing that there's a preference for Diana to be depicted physically with characteristics that are consistent with how they believe she has been depicted the majority of the time in the past - pale skin, dark hair, blue eyes etc.

For some, difference from these characteristics is no big deal.

For some, difference from depicting her with (some, or all of) these characteristics is preferable.

For some this is particularly the case if the shifts adhere to personal preferences or understandings of what would "fit" for Diana based on things like the cultures her story draws from (e.g. Ancient Greece) or what she does with her time (e.g. physical activity). This is where I'm hearing some of the interest in her having a darker skin tone, or dark eyes, or where ideas about her facial features and physique come in. Some may also feel that these depictions are helpful contributions to a wider discussion of representation of women in media. And for some, all of these physical aspects that differ from the "white skin, blue eyes" depiction also have precedent in comics and other media that have depicted her in these ways before, so aren't felt to be particularly controversial depictions of Diana anyway.

Where I'm hearing conflation happening, is where any of these preferences are being argued to be "more" or "less beautiful" than others, or even just "better", beyond the realms of personal opinion. I'm hearing where drawing on an imaginary "majority" to reinforce a personal view as true might start to come in, which feels like dangerous territory. Even if 99 of 100 people believe something, it doesn't make it "objectively true", it's a widely held belief.

This conflation of personal preference with what's objectively or even agreeably beautiful gets more complicated when the notion of Diana being "as beautiful as Aphrodite" comes in, because it seems to add a layer of imperative that somehow there *is* an objective beauty, and Diana should adhere to it. (Sidenote: it's interesting how often this line continues to be interpreted as referring to Diana's physical form and not her beauty as a person in other ways, but I digress).


Where I think I'm hearing projection, is where assumptions (I think) are being made about why people have the preferences they have, what they think about other things, what it indicates about their politics, and how authentic those politics or beliefs are.

I have deliberately not name checked or quoted here, because I am curious to see what of the above is resonating with people, and also what I am overlooking or missing about where people stand. I ask because there's some heat and flippancy seeping into this conversation that I don't think is necessary if there's effort to get clear about what we're up to.

Am I hearing things deeply enough here? Or missing things entirely?

You're pretty much spot on.

[Perseus]

Wait a minute, no one said that. Not even close, and let the record show I never said Diana needed pale skin for accuracy. It's a lack of blue eyes that's the deal breaker to me. Ororo Munroe has blue eyes and for my money she's far more beautiful than Diana of Themyscira.

Sure, but it just seems odd that this stuff usually happens when she's depicted this way. She frankly is rather attractive given the situation; she's on a battlefield, stressed out, virtually surrounded on all fronts, lost her teammates, is now dealing with Waller and her sh*t + murder clown and sidekicks, like she isn't going look like an obviously edited and filtered Cover girl photo. It's not the end of the world for me if Diana has brown, blue, or grey eyes, a ton of other characters played by IRL actors have slightly off looking depictions, so what? I know I complain about powerlevels a lot and stuff, but at least how powerful she is affects the story, when was the last time Diana's eye color did that?

Like you did complain that she looks constipated.... idk, maybe she's stressed the F out cause her entire team has been brain washed and even with her lasso it's a struggle to free them?

I would bet money that it's not the face at all and if she had her rebirth battleskirt costume, none would complain about it.

[Koriand'r]

Palicki looks like the Diana you claim to want though.

No. No she doesn't.

I posted Nicola Scott's retrospective to show if you follow the basic rules concerning her coloring you can alter the features and she's still Wonder Woman. Conversly you can follow all the rules and still get an unattractive version, like Alex Ross did yet she looks cold and unapproachable.

Well she has blue eyes in the video game.

And you provided examples of Greek models with paler skin to adhere to the general iconic look, so why shouldn't people come away with the impression that you need that for accuracy?

Because I speak plain didn't say that. The models were posted because you all seemed to think Greek women only looked one way when that's not the case and if the woman in the video game has blue eyes I can't tell.

[SiegePerilous02]

No. No she doesn't.




Because I speak plain didn't say that. The models were posted because you all seemed to think Greek women only looked one way when that's not the case and if the woman in the video game has blue eyes I can't tell.

How does Palicki not look like how you describe? What are these arbitrary rules you are making up?

You need to look closer at the gifs in this thread, because the woman in the game has blue eyes. Greek women don't all look one way, but some fans liking some experimental design with having her look like other types of Greek female beauty prompted tangents on "virtue signaling". As if this one design is going to erase the pale skin depictions.

What hill are you trying to die on here?

[Koriand'r]

How does Palicki not look like how you describe? What are these arbitrary rules you are making up?

You need to look closer at the gifs in this thread, because the woman in the game has blue eyes. Greek women don't all look one way, but some fans liking some experimental design with having her look like other types of Greek female beauty prompted tangents on "virtue signaling". As if this one design is going to erase the pale skin depictions.

What hill are you trying to die on here?

Adrianne Palicki has had every color hair but the only time it looked fake was when she played Wonder Woman. It takes more than a dye job and a push-up bra.

adriannepalicki_53014PCN_WonderWoman29.jpg

Also you said a lot when you said "experimental design" I don't want "experiments" I want authenticity.