Wonder Woman - General Discussion

[Alpha]

Since they do it after him getting violent first and trying to gamble with her and Billy's lives. Or is the issue that you think Diana can't control her strength to the point she'd kill Bruce?

Control her strength? She's already doing what we call police brutality

Vixen's anger issues were a result of her powers affecting her due to the animal instincts of the creatures channeled overwhelming her. The worst it got was killing a guy who murdered her friends and she immediately felt guilty about it. Her anger issues were only a thing for a short while in the Suicide Squad which had far worse people and pretty much disappeared after that.

Her very first appearance in the 70s with Superman had her being shocked at how much she lost control due to anger. Her justice league adventures in the early 2000s were about the same thing. It doesn't seem like you've read much with Vixen.

As for Power Girl starting out gentle, one of her first appearances had her calling a guy a chauvinist pig for giving her a Superman symbol as a gesture of friendliness.

So are you agreeing or disagreeing that Power Girl is often prone to getting pissed off and being hard mean and willing to put people down if they disrespect her? Seems like you were making the opposite argument you are making now. This feels like you're being contrarian.

Why are you holding Diana to a different standard than Bruce if you admit he's done worse. And what does he need empowerment from her for? The guy's already one of the founders of the Justice League and one of the richest people on the planet. Empowerment is completely irrelevant in this situation where Diana is trying to save someone's life and Bruce is only making it unnecessarily difficult. If Bruce is an egotist, then maybe a little humiliation is needed to take him down a peg or two.

Bruce does pften humiliate people, I wouldn't expect anything more from him than that. He isn't a conniving sadistic abuser. He is often an a-hole, sometimes a noble hero that believes in redemption even for criminals, and id always a superhero in the JLA that Diana has teamed up with time and time again to save the world. She clearly understands him to be acting for what he thinks is justice and he isn't a serial killer abuser. He's the jerk and her adversary, that's it.

Oh yeah, because humiliating someone is so much worse than scaring them with the threat of death.

Worse? Who the hell is talking about which is worse? I'm talking about which one breaks her values. One does, one doesn't. A honorable knight can scare an enemy, kill him even. But he doesn't humiliate an adversary fighting for a just cause even if they are on opposite sides.

Everyone has dignity.

The joker and Dr Psycho are rapists and serial killers. I agree that even a-holes deserve dignity, but rapists and serial killers don't. Diana does have limits to what she will accept of others, and while being a rapist and serial killer does cross those limits, being an a-hole doesn't. She wouldn't do police brutality on a narcissistic lawyer, but she would do it to a sadistic sex criminal

1) If it is out of character for Diana to brutally humiliate Bruce, it is equally out of character for her to brutally humiliate the Joker.

No it isn't

2) So now what she's doing to the Joker is humiliation? Please pick a lane here.

she certainly would be willing to brutally humiliate the sadistic and perverse Joker when he's trying to kill many people, but in this case she didn't even humiliate him. Scarring a baby isn't the same thing as spitting on his face and rubbing their face in wet dirt while ripping their clothes. I don't understand how you fail to see that regardless of which is worse, Diana's values as an honorable knight permit one thing but don't permit the other. And that Humiliation and Force aren't the same thing.

3) There is no such thing as "murder in self-defense". I won't even go into how Bruce has treated people with much more blood on their hands with kid gloves.

Hum, there absolutely is such a thing as murder in self defense. It's why you can legally kill someone that's trying to kill you if you have no other option. And isn't that why people here are rightfully on the side of Diana? Because she was defending a woman that killed a man in self defense? Which is in fact moral.

You really need to pick a lane here. Your belief seems to be that Diana doing police brutality is a moment to be celebrated, but your arguments are sometimes for and sometimes against this, because your biggest driving force seems to be being a contrarian to whichever thing I say, even when you yourself go against the notion that the moment deserves to be celebrated.

[Alpha]

Rucka doesn't attribute Diana becoming a Star Sapphire to her love for Bruce. He attributes it to her love for everyone.

After Wondergirl and Hippolyta try to appeal to Diana and fail Bruce comes in and does this:

[Alpha]

How the hell did Snyder come into this conversation? We were talking about the Hiketeia.

HestiasHearth is arguing that what you like about Wonder Woman is her being a violent warrior with a sword, so you don't think she should act with the values of an honorable knight

(Btw thank you HestiasHearth)

[HestiasHearth]

HestiasHearth is arguing that what you like about Wonder Woman is her being a violent warrior with a sword, so you don't think she should act with the values of an honorable knight

Exactly. And like I wrote earlier, I am done "arguing" with people who love the name "Wonder Woman" being given to that generic, blood-thirsty archetype that is so beloved among so many Snyder fans. The more violent and "badass" a superhero is, the more likely they will be favored by Snyderfandom. Let them enjoy that if they want. As far as I am concerned, that "warrior woman with a chip on her shoulder and a taste for blood" will always be a Wonder-Woman-In-Name-Only.

(Btw thank you HestiasHearth)

[Agent Z]

Control her strength? She's already doing what we call police brutality

Please stop demeaning this term by calling it that. Police brutality has an established meaning which Diana's actions don't even qualify for since she isn't a police officer (and neither is Bruce).

Her very first appearance in the 70s with Superman had her being shocked at how much she lost control due to anger. Her justice league adventures in the early 2000s were about the same thing. It doesn't seem like you've read much with Vixen.

Vixen first appeared in Action Comics #521 in 1981, not the 70s. And Superman never makes any comment about her having anger issues there. I don't recall her having any such problem in the 2000s, no more than any other superhero at least.

So are you agreeing or disagreeing that Power Girl is often prone to getting pissed off and being hard mean and willing to put people down if they disrespect her? Seems like you were making the opposite argument you are making now. This feels like you're being contrarian.

My point ultimately is that Karen and Diana aren't all that different in terms of approach. I just pointed out that Karen was never really "gentle" when she started out.

He isn't a conniving sadistic abuser.

Multiple instances in his own history say otherwise.

He is often an a-hole, sometimes a noble hero that believes in redemption even for criminals, and id always a superhero in the JLA that Diana has teamed up with time and time again to save the world. She clearly understands him to be acting for what he thinks is justice and he isn't a serial killer abuser. He's the jerk and her adversary, that's it.

And she treated him as she would a jerk and adversary. It seems like you're the one being a contrarian here.

Worse? Who the hell is talking about which is worse? I'm talking about which one breaks her values. One does, one doesn't. A honorable knight can scare an enemy, kill him even. But he doesn't humiliate an adversary fighting for a just cause even if they are on opposite sides.

An honorable person doesn't go out of their to scare someone when they can quickly neutralize them. And yes, which one is worse is relevant here when we are talking about Diana's values. Bruce might go out of his way to scare people but Diana generally does not.

The joker and Dr Psycho are rapists and serial killers. I agree that even a-holes deserve dignity, but rapists and serial killers don't. Diana does have limits to what she will accept of others, and while being a rapist and serial killer does cross those limits, being an a-hole doesn't. She wouldn't do police brutality on a narcissistic lawyer, but she would do it to a sadistic sex criminal

Bruce wasn't just being an asshole. He was relentlessly pursuing a woman whose crime amounted to killing the men who raped, abused and drove her sister to suicide and even after learning that her life was in danger, chose to gamble with her life. This is a man who has gone out of his way to protect Selina Kyle or turn a blind eye to her crimes, including killing someone, just because of their relationship. Meanwhile, he gets on Diana's case for killing Max Lord.

There's being an asshole and then there's being Bruce Wayne.

No it isn't
she certainly would be willing to brutally humiliate the sadistic and perverse Joker when he's trying to kill many people, but in this case she didn't even humiliate him. Scarring a baby isn't the same thing as spitting on his face and rubbing their face in wet dirt while ripping their clothes.

Has it ever occurred to you that being terrified can also be a source of humiliation?

And that Humiliation and Force aren't the same thing.

Seeing as how the premise of your argument is that Diana was humiliating Bruce by forcing him down, I'm wondering if you understand this yourself.

Hum, there absolutely is such a thing as murder in self defense. It's why you can legally kill someone that's trying to kill you if you have no other option. And isn't that why people here are rightfully on the side of Diana? Because she was defending a woman that killed a man in self defense? Which is in fact moral.

You cannot murder someone in self defense. Murder is the premediated killing of another person. Self defense is not premediated. And the reason Bruce was after Danielle (her name isn't Billy, I don't know why I made that mistake) was because she had murdered the men who sold her sister into sex trafficking resulting in her death. She was avenging her sister because no one, not the police and certainly not Batman cared about her.

I do find it odd that you are willing to give Batman a pass when you think he's pursuing someone who killed a person in self defense.

You really need to pick a lane here. Your belief seems to be that Diana doing police brutality is a moment to be celebrated, but your arguments are sometimes for and sometimes against this, because your biggest driving force seems to be being a contrarian to whichever thing I say, even when you yourself go against the notion that the moment deserves to be celebrated.

Given how often you've disagreed with people on this forum, I'm not sure you're in a position to be calling me a contrarian. And I haven't contradicted myself as I have maintained that this moment is not something for people to complain about.

[Agent Z]

HestiasHearth is arguing that what you like about Wonder Woman is her being a violent warrior with a sword, so you don't think she should act with the values of an honorable knight

(Btw thank you HestiasHearth)

Then they are making a strawman since I never said such a thing. And bringing up Snyder is completely uncalled for since the story we are arguing about wasn't even written by him. Diana in The Hiketeia doesn't even act the way they accuse Snyder of portraying Diana.

[Agent Z]

After Wondergirl and Hippolyta try to appeal to Diana and fail Bruce comes in and does this:

The very next page has Aphrodite state that Diana was chosen because she loves everyone.

[Alpha]

Please stop demeaning this term by calling it that. Police brutality has an established meaning which Diana's actions don't even qualify for since she isn't a police officer (and neither is Bruce).

Diana doesn't have a badge so I guess it isn't police brutality, it's superhero brutality. A superhero doing what we consider to be police brutality when performed by people with badges.

Since the 80s Bruce has often performed vigilante brutality and humiliates criminals in totally undignified ways, though most of the time he does it in the pursuit of murderers. And there are still many stories in the 80s and 90s about Bruce trying to help criminals seek a better path.

Thankfully Diana doesn't stand for this and never did. Thankfully she has the values of a chilvarous and honorable knight. Except in the cover people here love to celebrate, that shows Diana doing everything she stands against.

Vixen first appeared in Action Comics #521 in 1981, not the 70s. And Superman never makes any comment about her having anger issues there. I don't recall her having any such problem in the 2000s, no more than any other superhero at least.

Yeah I confused the dates with another character but everything else was right.
This is from DC comics presents 68


Vixen was always the kind of person that would be too punishing when she got pissed off and then would regret it. She wasn't even in the Suicide Squad yet, and these problems remained after she keft the Squad.

My point ultimately is that Karen and Diana aren't all that different in terms of approach. I just pointed out that Karen was never really "gentle" when she started out.

Yes they are. Diana chose to leave paradise for this hard world to empower others. Aside from the Gail Simone run and a few others, she is known to be all about embracing others. She has always made exceptions for rapists and perverse people. You yourself certainly disagree with this since the version of Wonder Woman that you like is the violent warrior (regardless of which universe or medium it is), which is a characterization often disliked in this community.

Karen is a woman that survived the destruction of many worlds and became Power Girl because she admired her cousin. Since coming to earth 1 she became very harsh and gained a bigger instinct to punish others, specially when she is pissed off. This isn't Diana at all. And her goals aren't the same (other than just generally being a superhero)

Multiple instances in his own history say otherwise.

there you go making statements you don't believe in just to be argumentative. What main earth stories have shown Batman to be called a coniving sadistic abuser (and since I have to be specific, sadism mean enjoying pain, not just being ruthless, and abuser is in a sexula manner like Joker and Dr Psycho)

And she treated him as she would a jerk and adversary. It seems like you're the one being a contrarian here.

police brutality (superhero brutality) isn't what you do to jerk adversaries like narcissitic lawyers. It's what you do to sadistic sex criminals who don't deserve any human dignity.

An honorable person doesn't go out of their to scare someone when they can quickly neutralize them. And yes, which one is worse is relevant here when we are talking about Diana's values. Bruce might go out of his way to scare people but Diana generally does not.

Bruce is often dishonorable (and sometimes quite honorable). Diana isn't. Diana is supposed to be here to show us how to act honorably and be empowered.

Bruce wasn't just being an asshole. He was relentlessly pursuing a woman whose crime amounted to killing the men who raped, abused and drove her sister to suicide and even after learning that her life was in danger, chose to gamble with her life. This is a man who has gone out of his way to protect Selina Kyle or turn a blind eye to her crimes, including killing someone, just because of their relationship. Meanwhile, he gets on Diana's case for killing Max Lord.

He wasn't being sadistic, he was being an a-hole with a psycothic and blind pursuit of reductive justice which I find infuriating but not sadistic and abusive, in fact, from his viewpoint it's just.

Has it ever occurred to you that being terrified can also be a source of humiliation?

Has it occuref to you that scarring the joker isn't a form of humiliation?

Seeing as how the premise of your argument is that Diana was humiliating Bruce by forcing him down, I'm wondering if you understand this yourself.

Then what is the difference between force and humiliation? You really don't have an answer?

I do find it odd that you are willing to give Batman a pass when you think he's pursuing someone who killed a person in self defense.

How am I giving him a pass? I said Diana doing that goes aginst her values. Power Girl or Vixen doing it goes perfectly in line with their characterization and is something I would find rightful

Given how often you've disagreed with people on this forum, I'm not sure you're in a position to be calling me a contrarian. And I haven't contradicted myself as I have maintained that this moment is not something for people to complain about.

Yes you have. You said Power Girl and Vixen would br just as unwilling to humiliate Batman as Diana is, and then you proceeded to argue why Power Girl would in fact be quite willing, while Vixen wouldn't, simply to be contrarian.

I have often had controversial opinions in this forum. I've also often had popular opinions. I have even had my mind changed by others through discussions in this forum. For example when people convinced me Etta Candy having dark skin doesn't have to be ptpblematic despite her original personality. It was also in this forum that I became aggrieved with Marston's gender essentialism

[Alpha]

The very next page has Aphrodite state that Diana was chosen because she loves everyone.

"The color ofove for all creation, your color"

How does this change the fact that Wonder Girl and Hippolyta tried to awaken Diana, failed, and the thing that worked was Bruce talking to her and kissing her?


It's still proof that Greg Rucka thought Diana would love Bruce Wayne, which is ridiculous

[Gaius]

And as I've said multiple times, my jiggest problem isn't that Diana broke all of her values in this sad moment. The thing I can't believe is that fans if this character would celebrate one of the saddest moments of her career.

[Alpha]

Is that what you say to people that love Wonder Woman in Justice League Unlimited, Wonder Woman in Injustice, and Wonder Woman in Justice League War? (To be clear I'm not one).


I think people celebrating Diana breaking her values is a common critique among fans here. They just like to make a special case for her attacking Batman because of some toxic seek for punishment above her own message

[Gaius]

Is that what you say to people that love Wonder Woman in Justice League Unlimited, Wonder Woman in Injustice, and Wonder Woman in Justice League War? (To be clear I'm not one).


I think people celebrating Diana breaking her values is a common critique among fans here. They just like to make a special case for her attacking Batman because of some toxic seek for punishment above her own message

People have explained why it doesn't bother them to you, you just don't like it.

[Alpha]

People have explained why it doesn't bother them to you, you just don't like it.

Their explanation is "it's not that bad and Batman deserves it".

I still see something incredibly toxic happening with a character I love. It's part of the growing desire for her to punish other male heroes, which just rips the whole passionate spirut out of the character.

You are free to feel what you feel, doesn't mean I will stop sharing my opinion whenever people post that awful cover

[Gaius]

Their explanation is "it's not that bad and Batman deserves it".

Yeah, and that's really all the explanation one needs to provide. You're not entitled to one in the first place.

[Alpha]

Of course I'm not. And your point is? How am I different from from everyone else in this forum?