Wonder Woman - General Discussion

[SiegePerilous02]

That's fair, I'm not particularly worked up over power levels since that kind of stuff just kind of usually bores me and it doesn't really bother me if she's second to his first. My main gripe is usually it just seems to be done because Superman writers want to get back at the times he's been jobbed by Batman but DC will rarely let Bruce get straight up beaten so they have him toss around someone else. Or when it's done for him, or Bruce, to wag their fingers at her, and usually the Amazons by extension, over some supposed moral failing.

Aside from the fallout of the Max Lord neck snap (which DID go on for a while), I don't recall much finger wagging from Superman towards Wonder Woman or the Amazons. Maybe in Kingdom Come (which I know more by reputation than having read it)?

There is the scene from New Frontier, but the book and fans side with her on that one.

They should both knock Bruce around for a bit and then retire the "Trinity feuding" crap for a few decades (or forever)

[Rightoya]

Only things I would offer a bit of contention with would be raw speed and raw strength. Superman is generally portrayed to be much faster. Until they kick things into a near time travel gear, Superman is routinely shown as able to keep up with Flashes. Also I think the difference in raw strength is more than just slight. Compared to most everyone else she's one of the few who gets close to him, but pure raw strength has always been his thing and its still pretty significant. To me its her battle skill which really helps even that out some.

At the end of the day though these might be more quibbles in semantics more than anything. ll in all though its a pretty good way to look at things.

This is either wrong or you truly just mean flying speed, because in any other case has Wonder Woman barely less speedster comparisons than Superman looking at the amount of feats to issues ratio, and he is definitively not much faster in any other kind of speed.

Strength is a different story, but shouldn't even matter that much if DC would properly portrayal all her equipment, but the stats game is not the right way anyway, they should just make them equal in the sense of them having a 50/50 fight with differently good match ups against different other threats by giving them different strengths and weaknesses.

[WonderLight789]

It was, but we've accumulated a lot of lore since then as far as Superman's status as the most powerful is concerned. She's no longer just Marston's creation, and all that implies for good or ill. He and his team had her for, what, 10 or so years? vs. the near 80 she's been around. And even he never seemed intent on having her fly, which is what a lot of fans don't like seeing nerfed, so there is not as much consistency when looking at what Marston wanted vs. what fans want.

It was also probably the intention of both Siegel/Shuster and Marston that neither of their characters firmly share a universe with the other, and we all know how that turned out.


Agreed that DC does need to do far more than they do as far as putting their money where their mouth is though. Being second strongest while still being able to stand up to the strongest puts a massive gap between her and almost everyone else.

DC still says that WW is one of the big top guns in SM's tier. So yes, i think they need to put their money where their mouth is. Or at least stop hyping her up only to come out short.

[SiegePerilous02]

This is either wrong or you truly just mean flying speed, because in any other case has Wonder Woman barely less speedster comparisons than Superman looking at the amount of feats to issues ratio, and he is definitively not much faster in any other kind of speed.

Strength is a different story, but shouldn't even matter that much if DC would properly portrayal all her equipment, but the stats game is not the right way anyways, they should just make them equal in the sense of them having a 50/50 fight with differently good match ups against different other threats by giving them different strengths and weaknesses.

Wonder Woman has never been shown to be able to keep up with the Flashes in a foot race, even if just barely in a lot of cases.

They arguably should have depicted her doing that long before now, but they rarely (if ever) have. So for all intents and purposes, he's faster than her at running speeds. Even in her own mythos, so is Cheetah.

[Gaius]

I don't think it's a particular big deal if Diana or Clark aren't as fast as whoever the Flash is.

I mean besides ripping the timeline a new one, being "the fast one" is literally the Flash's entire thing.

Aside from the fallout of the Max Lord neck snap (which DID go on for a while), I don't recall much finger wagging from Superman towards Wonder Woman or the Amazons. Maybe in Kingdom Come (which I know more by reputation than having read it)?

There is the scene from New Frontier, but the book and fans side with her on that one.

They should both knock Bruce around for a bit and then retire the "Trinity feuding" crap for a few decades (or forever)

Fair enough, guess I just mainly think of the Infinite Crisis era.

[Sacred Knight]

This is either wrong or you truly just mean flying speed, because in any other case has Wonder Woman barely less speedster comparisons than Superman looking at the amount of feats to issues ratio, and he is definitively not much faster in any other kind of speed.

Strength is a different story, but shouldn't even matter that much if DC would properly portrayal all her equipment, but the stats game is not the right way anyway, they should just make them equal in the sense of them having a 50/50 fight with differently good match ups against different other threats by giving them different strengths and weaknesses.

I was speaking of raw speed, which includes both flying and running. He's at his fastest when flying but he's also quite fast while running. And I disagree its wrong. Hell a year or two ago they set up a splash page of fastest people in the verse. Superman was second to the Flashes (Wally, Barry, Thawne). That sort of stuff isn't gospel the second they go ahead and contradict it of course, which all being fictional characters they can easily do. But in general this one is pretty consistent.

[Rightoya]

Wonder Woman has never been shown to be able to keep up with the Flashes in a foot race, even if just barely in a lot of cases.

They arguably should have depicted her doing that long before now, but they rarely (if ever) have. So for all intents and purposes, he's faster than her at running speeds. Even in her own mythos, so is Cheetah.

Wonder Woman has been shown several times to perceive, react to, catch and so on all kinds of speedsters including Flashes, but you can widen my flying speed comment to general travel speed, although they made it very clear that Superman gets also left in the dust by Flash in a serious foot race.

Probably, although i don't even remember that many good running speed feats of him, and was more thinking on other kinds of speed anyway.

[Rightoya]

I was speaking of raw speed, which includes both flying and running. He's at his fastest when flying but he's also quite fast while running. And I disagree its wrong. Hell a year or two ago they set up a splash page of fastest people in the verse. Superman was second to the Flashes (Wally, Barry, Thawne). That sort of stuff isn't gospel the second they go ahead and contradict it of course, which all being fictional characters they can easily do. But in general this one is pretty consistent.

Superman was specifically flying in that splash page, and i doubt i forgot enough running speed feats of him to think he would be outright much faster, but i was more thinking about the most combat relevant kinds of speed anyway.

[Perseus]

That speed list is just short of decent tbh. I mean they got most of the fastest people on there (I mean lightray should be on there too not just black racer). Diana was shown running and not flying, also her explanation is that she "knows the mechanics of running better then anyone because she's a warrior" and like.... what? how does that makes sense? She's fast cause of Hermes's gift of godlike speed, that's all the writer needed to say. Superman was way to high on that list too tbh, again he's fast especially in flight but he's not right before the flashes. Black Racer was kind of low on that list, Cheetah should be faster then Diana but not slower then Clark. I would defiantly move the characters around a bit.

As for raw strength, yes Superman has the advantage but I don't think the gap is noticeable when both characters are that powerful. Like if Superman IS the top dog, y'know 100/100 in strength, then Wonder Woman is like 96-93/100. Its like, give a few thousand tons, but when both characters can move planets... what's a few thousand tons, right.

[WonderLight789]

That speed list is just short of decent tbh. I mean they got most of the fastest people on there (I mean lightray should be on there too not just black racer). Diana was shown running and not flying, also her explanation is that she "knows the mechanics of running better then anyone because she's a warrior" and like.... what? how does that makes sense? She's fast cause of Hermes's gift of godlike speed, that's all the writer needed to say. Superman was way to high on that list too tbh, again he's fast especially in flight but he's not right before the flashes. Black Racer was kind of low on that list, Cheetah should be faster then Diana but not slower then Clark. I would defiantly move the characters around a bit.

As for raw strength, yes Superman has the advantage but I don't think the gap is noticeable when both characters are that powerful. Like if Superman IS the top dog, y'know 100/100 in strength, then Wonder Woman is like 96-93/100. Its like, give a few thousand tons, but when both characters can move planets... what's a few thousand tons, right.

I wouldn't give SM any advantage in speed or strength. If WW truly is meant to be his equal then that should be shown. After such a long time with the character getting the short end of the stick, i wouldn't settle for second best. Too many broken promises and i'm tired of it.

[SiegePerilous02]

Fair enough, guess I just mainly think of the Infinite Crisis era.

Well it haunts her to this day, so can't blame you for thinking it's more pervasive than it might actually be.

Max Lord made it into her goddamn movies.

I wouldn't give SM any advantage in speed or strength. If WW truly is meant to be his equal then that should be shown. After such a long time with the character getting the short end of the stick, i wouldn't settle for second best. Too many broken promises and i'm tired of it.

Maybe it's just not truly meant to be that way?

And no, it doesn't really matter what Marston may or may not have intended. At this point, a lot of what Siegel and Shuster intended for Superman is either not around or has been diluted or changed too. And none of them were intended to be in such a shared universe with dense continuity anyway.

As for raw strength, yes Superman has the advantage but I don't think the gap is noticeable when both characters are that powerful. Like if Superman IS the top dog, y'know 100/100 in strength, then Wonder Woman is like 96-93/100. Its like, give a few thousand tons, but when both characters can move planets... what's a few thousand tons, right.

I think this sounds about right. If the gap is that small, and she's lacking his major weaknesses and is more skilled, that strikes me as more than fair.

[WonderLight789]

Well it haunts her to this day, so can't blame you for thinking it's more pervasive than it might actually be.

Max Lord made it into her goddamn movies.



Maybe it's just not truly meant to be that way?

And no, it doesn't really matter what Marston may or may not have intended. At this point, a lot of what Siegel and Shuster intended for Superman is either not around or has been diluted or changed too. And none of them were intended to be in such a shared universe with dense continuity anyway.



I think this sounds about right. If the gap is that small, and she's lacking his major weaknesses and is more skilled, that strikes me as more than fair.

There are still modern comics saying WW is equal to SM. How she is in the same tier etc etc. So yea, if she is meant to be on that level, it'd be great to actually see it on panel. As things stand right now. WW is not his equal. Not only that, she is not even remotely close to his level based on actual feats and battle trackrecord. I don't know if you are ok or not with the so called most iconic and powerful female hero being so below the strongest male, but i'm not ok with that.

[Rightoya]

Maybe it's just not truly meant to be that way?

And no, it doesn't really matter what Marston may or may not have intended. At this point, a lot of what Siegel and Shuster intended for Superman is either not around or has been diluted or changed too. And none of them were intended to be in such a shared universe with dense continuity anyway.

Well in that case should DC finally lose the rights on Wonder Woman/just sell them, because it is meant to be that way without any doubt, the whole character Wonder Woman has no true purpose without that because we are talking about the literal core and reason for why she got created without any room for big interpretations in the question of being equal to Superman or even more what he represents in that regard. And DC even kind of seems to understand that, because all the unfulfilled lip service still exists for a reason. There is a big and very important dfference between, Superman is physically stronger or Superman is outright superior.

The core of what Siegel and Shuster have intended is also still there, and any Superman where that was not the case got rightfully criticized, often even heavily.

[Psy-lock]

Wonder Woman should be faster than Superman or at least equal to him. Her speed comes from a god famous for his speed. And she used to be "swifter than Mercury" but somehow Superman is superior? It makes no sense. Now that I think about it's also pretty silly that Cheetah is faster than her.

[Agent Z]

Perhaps it would have been better for Diana to be in her own continuity.