Wonder Woman - General Discussion

[I'm a Fish]

Read this issue out of curiosity. I have to agree with others, there's nothing particularly egregious here. Honestly the main things that annoy were the call-backs the poor Wonder Woman-centric episodes of the DCAU and reminder the DCAU was trying to give Diana daddy issues long before Azzarello pulled the trigger (an illusion of Hades showed up).

It was kind of amusing that aside from hooking up with Darkseid, sounds like this alternate Diana was closer to Wonder Woman's actual personality than DCAU Diana was for the large part.

Anyways based off this issue, "WonderSeid" > school girl crush on Bruce Timm's self-insert.

Yeah, Hades trying to convince Diana she's Bane. He practically said, "You where born in the darkness, molded by it."

[WonderLight789]

Just that she falls in love with him and is "relegated" to love interest and isnt shown to be a powerhouse that can go against a Darkseid that would be willing to fight back.

Pretty much this. Not the worst from DCAU WW, but still not good in my opinion.

[RobinGA]

Three thoughts on the ick factor.

I'll agree that it isn't as egregious as some things that have shown up in comics. It is the multiverse, a version of imaginary stories.
I don't enjoy that thing myself, but mine is clearly a minority opinion. As it is with many things. Personally, the only multiverse
versions of Wonder Woman (or other heroes) I want to read about would be the Golden Age Earth of the JSA, more please from Golden
Age Wonder Woman, Fury, or even an elseworld where Mala was Wonder Woman. But that's about it. But I also know what goes on with
Darkseid, who has his enthusiasts, this becomes a form of relationship porn. It's happened before, it will happen again, you can't get
too mad about it.

But the second part that bothers me is the way that women characters in DC, not just Wonder Woman, are treated. The rule seems to
be that if you are breathing, they can throw them in front of anyone no matter how ridiculous.

But the deeper question regarding the ick factor is the nature of what Darkseid represents. Sure, I suppose we have long seen Wonder
Woman having a positive impact in how people grow and develop. But I'd phrase it this way. How would you feel about it if instead of
Darkseid and Wonder Woman making out having a relationship it was Adolf Hitler. Would that be OK? Let's say that there is an elseworld
where Diana met Hitler before he really got the holocaust going, Diana "reformed" him so instead of murdering 12 million, it was 800,000.
I don't think we would say that was OK, it would still offend our sensibilities. You can substitute any number of evil tyrants. Josef Stalin,
who murdered 20 million human beings, Mao Zedong an untold number.

Now I know that this is comics, fun and games, so we shouldn't think about the world life comparisons too much. But the other part of
this is what this says about Diana. It cheapens her, by making her simply someone who is some magic potion to "redeem" male characters.
It suggests that in the right situation she would align herself with someone who doesn't share her moral values. Diana's great appeal
has always been an ethical component, that gets thrown away.

[Gaius]

I suppose it’s partly because Darkseid and his victims are all fictional characters whereas Hitler, Stalin, and their victims are not.

I do agree in large part though, it’s why Golden Age Paula von Gunther’s redemption arc is poorly aged imo due to her Nazi connections and why characters like Harley and Poison Ivy are DOA for me for character we’re supposed to sympathize with.

I agree on the point it shows poor creative thinking to do another Multiverse Wonder Woman based on who she shacked up with this week.

[DisneyBoy]

I'm really tired of people seeing her mainly through the filter of the effect she has on men who are attracted to her sexually...Batman, Superman, Darkseid or otherwise.

[John Venus]

Redemption is tricky, especially in this day and age.

You got to show characters actually atoning for their crimes and just because Diana redeemed someone, it doesn't mean she has to be in a romantic relationship with them (Cheetah fans might disagree but I digress).

[John Venus]

There was a great issue of 'Batman & The Outsiders' wherein a supervillain tried to clone Hitler so he can lead a new Third Reich. Said supervillain begins to 'train' the Hitler clone by showing him videos of Nazi Germany. He also has a Jewish maid (ignorant to who he was) serve the new Hitler and was counting on the Hitler clone to kill the maid as a means of proving himself. However, at the end of the video, instead of killing the maid, Hitler kills himself. The message being that even a clone of Hitler would rather kill itself than repeat the same horrors that it committed in life.

[RobinGA]

Wow. That is something.

[Agent Z]

Three thoughts on the ick factor.

I'll agree that it isn't as egregious as some things that have shown up in comics. It is the multiverse, a version of imaginary stories.
I don't enjoy that thing myself, but mine is clearly a minority opinion. As it is with many things. Personally, the only multiverse
versions of Wonder Woman (or other heroes) I want to read about would be the Golden Age Earth of the JSA, more please from Golden
Age Wonder Woman, Fury, or even an elseworld where Mala was Wonder Woman. But that's about it. But I also know what goes on with
Darkseid, who has his enthusiasts, this becomes a form of relationship porn. It's happened before, it will happen again, you can't get
too mad about it.

But the second part that bothers me is the way that women characters in DC, not just Wonder Woman, are treated. The rule seems to
be that if you are breathing, they can throw them in front of anyone no matter how ridiculous.

But the deeper question regarding the ick factor is the nature of what Darkseid represents. Sure, I suppose we have long seen Wonder
Woman having a positive impact in how people grow and develop. But I'd phrase it this way. How would you feel about it if instead of
Darkseid and Wonder Woman making out having a relationship it was Adolf Hitler. Would that be OK? Let's say that there is an elseworld
where Diana met Hitler before he really got the holocaust going, Diana "reformed" him so instead of murdering 12 million, it was 800,000.
I don't think we would say that was OK, it would still offend our sensibilities. You can substitute any number of evil tyrants. Josef Stalin,
who murdered 20 million human beings, Mao Zedong an untold number.

Now I know that this is comics, fun and games, so we shouldn't think about the world life comparisons too much. But the other part of
this is what this says about Diana. It cheapens her, by making her simply someone who is some magic potion to "redeem" male characters.
It suggests that in the right situation she would align herself with someone who doesn't share her moral values. Diana's great appeal
has always been an ethical component, that gets thrown away.

Yeah, this is way I say people really should be careful with what they wish for when it comes to asking for Diana to act as a rehabilitative character. Because with the way a lot of redemption arcs are written these days, we can easily get insulting stories like this one.

[I'm a Fish]

Yeah, this is way I say people really should be careful with what they wish for when it comes to asking for Diana to act as a rehabilitative character. Because with the way a lot of redemption arcs are written these days, we can easily get insulting stories like this one.

Wheather Diana rehabilitates villains has had no impact on her smooching them, look to Earth 2 and Sephenwolfe as an example. And this is the only story I remember where she’s romantic with a reformed villain. Most of her villains are women after all and DC seems shy about her kiss a lady in panel (not that I think she should make out with a reformed villainess either.)

And honestly, this story felt like they wanted to make an homage to Superfriends (which they do in the DCAU a lot) and worked Diana rehabilitating Darksied as a plot point to get them to kiss. Basically, the rehabilitation was structured around the romances and not the cause of it.

[ducklord]

While there's undoubtedly an "ick" factor to a romance being added to a "Diana uses the Power of Love to Redeem Darkseid" story, this story does kind of pick up on a couple of my favorite freaky Wonder Woman/Darkseid interactions:

1. Back during the latter days of the Super Friends (after they added Cyborg), Darkseid was constantly trying to woo Wonder Woman. It was embarrassing for all involved.
2. In one of my favorite never-really-followed-up bits, Diana once infected Darkseid with her compassion near the end of Our Worlds at War. She teased him that this little seed would eventually grow, but no one ever really ran with it.

[Gaius]

While there's undoubtedly an "ick" factor to a romance being added to a "Diana uses the Power of Love to Redeem Darkseid" story, this story does kind of pick up on a couple of my favorite freaky Wonder Woman/Darkseid interactions:

1. Back during the latter days of the Super Friends (after they added Cyborg), Darkseid was constantly trying to woo Wonder Woman. It was embarrassing for all involved.
2. In one of my favorite never-really-followed-up bits, Diana once infected Darkseid with her compassion near the end of Our Worlds at War. She teased him that this little seed would eventually grow, but no one ever really ran with it.

Yeah, that moment was on my mind when reading it. Probably my favorite little detail from Jimenez's run.

[Agent Z]

Wheather Diana rehabilitates villains has had no impact on her smooching them, look to Earth 2 and Sephenwolfe as an example. And this is the only story I remember where she’s romantic with a reformed villain. Most of her villains are women after all and DC seems shy about her kiss a lady in panel (not that I think she should make out with a reformed villainess either.)

And honestly, this story felt like they wanted to make an homage to Superfriends (which they do in the DCAU a lot) and worked Diana rehabilitating Darksied as a plot point to get them to kiss. Basically, the rehabilitation was structured around the romances and not the cause of it.

I was simply saying this is one potential example given the way redemption is handled these days. I don't think rehabilitating villains in and of itself is the issue, but modern writing convention makes it very easy to fall into some offensive stuff. Combine this with how some writers see female characters like Diana and you have a recipe for disaster.

[Fuzzy Mittens]

Oh wow! The Holliday Girls are a thing again?!

[I'm a Fish]

I was simply saying this is one potential example given the way redemption is handled these days. I don't think rehabilitating villains in and of itself is the issue, but modern writing convention makes it very easy to fall into some offensive stuff. Combine this with how some writers see female characters like Diana and you have a recipe for disaster.

Some writers use Diana coming from an all-female culture as an excuse to portray her as a misandrist. Should we delete that part of Diana’s character history to completely avoid that characterization?

The same can be said for Diana choosing to kill on occasion. Writers miss-use that all the time to give Bats and Sups the moral high ground. Some of her worse characterizations revolve around her being a “killer”.

Bad writing is just that, bad writing. Diana rehabilitating her villains shouldn’t be avoided because some writer will inevitably come along and do something dumb. And it’s not an inherently problematic issue like the Venus Girdles.