Controversial Batfam ideas

[Agent Z]

Claiming that Cassandra Cain had a limited shelf-life and that DC did everything to push her is the definition of revisionist history.

[John Venus]

'Revealing' that Kathy Kane, the original Batwoman as a blood relative of Bruce thus implying Bruce had the hots for his Aunt was a bad idea.

[Tzigone]

'Revealing' that Kathy Kane, the original Batwoman was a blood relative of Bruce thus Bruce had the hots for his Aunt was a bad idea.

The entire Kathy/Kate, Bette/Betty thing was really not fantastically done, IMO. Obviously it comes down to differing needs over 20+ (okay 60+) years of of comics, but it has resulted in a bit of a jumble - mostly later on. And certainly no worse than plenty of other jumbles, though that's hardly praise. I think it goes like this, but with comic books, I'm not sure I trust my analysis.

Firstly, Kathy Unrelated-to-Bruce and later-introduced niece Betty was simple.

Then there was no Kathy, and Bette became a hero on her own. Also simple, since pre-COIE wasn't considered canon anymore.

Then we had Kate Unrelated-to-Bruce and no Kathy. And that's where I tend to fall on the preference spectrum, since I perceive Kate as more important than Kathy, given number of appearances and her appearing in a era of more continuity and connectededness between titles. The only issues that really come up there is whether or not Kate is related to Bette and also that it results in Bette heroing long before Kate did (sort of like Donna was several years in and Diana a rookie in early post-COIE, but it doesn't bother me in the case of Kate and Bette, since they've become decoupled in my mind with Bette existing so long as Flamebird without Kate, even if not heavily used).

Then Kate becomes related to Bruce and thus has family money (which is certainly a contradiction from earlier when the money came from her stepmother). Bette turns out to be related to her (and ends up her sidekick, I guess - haven't read those - even though we saw her active years before Kate which really bugs me and turns into a bit of copy-Kate with a completely different personality than she had post-COIE, though she did copy Kathy originally, so there's still a Kathy=Kateish dynamnic), and so Bette was into a (non-blood) family member when she was crushing on Dick, which I don't care for. But then there's Kathy, and that's where I really do lose the plot.

[Aahz]

Don't forget that Kate's Sister is also named Beth, which makes the whole thing even more convoluted...

[SiegePerilous02]

Morrison's usage of original Kathy Kane had pluses and minuses. I really liked how they wrote her, showing this long forgotten supporting character who most wrote off as Bruce's failed beard could have some value, and undoing her fridging. Plus it was neat that she was established as older than Bruce, we don't ever see that age difference between Bruce and a woman (Dick had Barbara, but that's frequently changed).

But it causes problems with Rucka's recent establishing of Kate as being her post-Crisis counterpart, not intending her to be a legacy. And I do not like either of them being related to Bruce (through marriage or blood), but I can't recall if that was Morrison's doing or just an unfortunate side effect of Martha being a Kane.

Having Betty but no Kathy in post-COIE canon was always weird too. Why not just get rid of them both or let them exist?

[Restingvoice]

Morrison's usage of original Kathy Kane had pluses and minuses. I really liked how they wrote her, showing this long forgotten supporting character who most wrote off as Bruce's failed beard could have some value, and undoing her fridging. Plus it was neat that she was established as older than Bruce, we don't ever see that age difference between Bruce and a woman (Dick had Barbara, but that's frequently changed).

But it causes problems with Rucka's recent establishing of Kate as being her post-Crisis counterpart, not intending her to be a legacy. And I do not like either of them being related to Bruce (through marriage or blood), but I can't recall if that was Morrison's doing or just an unfortunate side effect of Martha being a Kane.

Having Betty but no Kathy in post-COIE canon was always weird too. Why not just get rid of them both or let them exist?

Kathy is related through marriage by Morrison's doing
Kate is related by blood I assume by whoever's in charge of New 52 (Didio?) since everything in the Bat family is connected to Batman either by brand or by blood. The blood relation started immediately after J.H. Williams' departure, first mentioned in Batwoman's Zero Year tie-in.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Claiming that Cassandra Cain had a limited shelf-life and that DC did everything to push her is the definition of revisionist history.

F&*king seriously.

Cass rarely appeared in Nightwing or Robin. She never got a focus arc in Gotham Knights. She never did much more than cameo in Birds of Prey. And she never teamed up with Bruce in his series more than a handful of times, if that. In Loeb's hamfisted Batman stories, Cass either never appeared or was just a warm body.

I know Cain was revealed as the main villain in Bruce Wayne:Murderer, but even that crossover saw little Cass. Brubaker, to his credit, did use Cass some and focused on her character even when she wasn't present.

Ironic that Babs is the red headed Batgirl, yet writers always treated Cass as the red headed step child

If they put work and effort into Cass, I'm confident that it would be rewarded, but I find that unlikely for the foreseeable future.

[SiegePerilous02]

Cass really doesn't have any more of a limited shelf life than any other Bat-character, at least the ones introduced in the 90s and 00s.

Hell she probably has more of one than half of the Robins.

Kathy is related through marriage by Morrison's doing

Yeah but was Martha being a Kane established elsewhere in post-Crisis continuity?

[The Cool Thatguy]

Cass really doesn't have any more of a limited shelf life than any other Bat-character, at least the ones introduced in the 90s and 00s.

Hell she probably has more of one than half of the Robins.

Honestly, done right, Cass' shelf life is easily equal to Bruce's.

Her origin and motivation don't depend on him, or reflect his. While his character compliments her in many regards, her origin doesn't rely on him in any way. How man other characters can say that?

[Tzigone]

Yeah but was Martha being a Kane established elsewhere in post-Crisis continuity?

Yes. In Batman Secret Files from 1997, a in-universe text article about the Wayne Family "Upon the Shoulders of Giants: The Men Behind Gotham." It said "Wayne even found time to woo and win the lovely Martha Kane, sole heir to the Kane Chemical fortune and fellow Bristol neighbor." Can't swear that was first instance, though. But Kathy didn't exist then, so Martha wasn't related to her when it was written. Nor is there any reason she should be - Kane is hardly an uncommon name (and it's a creator shout-out, which would make it more common in Batman world). You don't see droves of people saying Dinah Drake Lance is related to Tim Drake, for instance (though certainly I know some fans would like it). And of course, there's no Kate yet (and Martha is only child), but then she wasn't related in post-COIE, either.

[SiegePerilous02]

Honestly, done right, Cass' shelf life is easily equal to Bruce's.

Her origin and motivation don't depend on him, or reflect his. While his character compliments her in many regards, her origin doesn't rely on him in any way. How man other characters can say that?

If she's wearing his symbol and being explicitly part of the brand as Batgirl, it kind of does depend on him to a degree. She's not a completely independent character unless you want to send her out into the DC universe completely divested from the Bat-verse. I think she has enough going for her that it could work, but a sizeable chunk of the audience seem to want her with the Batgirl mantle first and foremost.

But that's no different from his other numerous spin off characters. So pointing to her as the one with limited shelf life isn't fair. If anything, that would be Tim.

Yes. In Batman Secret Files from 1997, a in-universe text article about the Wayne Family "Upon the Shoulders of Giants: The Men Behind Gotham." It said "Wayne even found time to woo and win the lovely Martha Kane, sole heir to the Kane Chemical fortune and fellow Bristol neighbor." Can't swear that was first instance, though. But Kathy didn't exist then, so Martha wasn't related to her when it was written. Nor is there any reason she should be - Kane is hardly an uncommon name (and it's a creator shout-out, which would make it more common in Batman world). You don't see droves of people saying Dinah Drake Lance is related to Tim Drake, for instance (though certainly I know some fans would like it). And of course, there's no Kate yet (and Martha is only child), but then she wasn't related in post-COIE, either.

Gotcha, thanks. But what are the odds of there being two wealthy Kane families in Gotham, and both producing significant characters tied to Batman (his mother in one, the Batwomen in the other)? Though I guess stranger things have happened in the DCU...

I kind of prefer the idea of having Martha be an Arkham. Probably the one good idea to come out of Batman: Earth One.

[Tzigone]

Gotcha, thanks. But what are the odds of there being two wealthy Kane families in Gotham, and both producing significant characters tied to Batman (his mother in one, the Batwomen in the other)? Though I guess stranger things have happened in the DCU...

Was Kathy from Gotham, originally? But again, Kathy didn't exist when Martha was made a Kane (and Martha wasn't a Kane when Kathy was created as one). And Kane's of Kate's family weren't wealthy originally.

Actually do we we know for sure if either Kate (or Jacob) or Kathy was born in Gotham when originally introduced?

There's a Kane-bridge too, right? Was it so-named for funding source, engineer who designed it, in honor of prominent deceased person or what? Probably no idea.

I kind of prefer the idea of having Martha be an Arkham. Probably the one good idea to come out of Batman: Earth One.

I'm fond at least one of Bruce's familial lines as ordinary, non-historically important rich people. I really dislike everything/everyone being connected. A lot. Especially in retcons. That's a pipe dream, though, I guess.

Edit: My sister told me that, in-universe, the bridge was heavily funded by Cameron Kane and named in honor of his son (who was killed by the man who designed the bridge), per the Gates of Gotham.

[the nomad]

COntroversial ideas, okay, I'll bite. I've been holding this one for a while buuuut.

Jason Todd needs to be either a villain or he should return to the grave. I mean what other purpose does he serve. Yeah he used to be a robin but there are like three other robins ppl like way more.

Also why hasn't he hunted down and killed every last Joker in Gotham. I mean seriously. The Three Jokers proved he's capable of killing the Joker so why isn't the Joker or Harley or anyone who worships that satanic clown, like you know dead. I mean that should be his primary purpose right. NOt reintegrate into society. Not trying to be Robin again or get Bruce to love him. But to Kill the Joker.

MOst stories with him have been ehhhh. So again either have him kill the Joker...permanently or kill him off again and send him back to the grave.

[Primal Slayer]

May not be controversial but the Batfam is WAY TO BIG now. There are so many people that are in it...

[Restingvoice]

I kind of prefer the idea of having Martha be an Arkham. Probably the one good idea to come out of Batman: Earth One.

That would be interesting since Amadeus Arkham and Alan Wayne were friends and these days Jeremiah has appeared often enough as a Batman ally almost on par with Gordon or Bullock, instead they make Martha a redhead to match the Kanes.