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  1. #121
    Mighty Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    Alice never went back to being a villain after Elegy. The second time it was basically drug-induced mind control.
    She was a villain in the 'Batwoman Supergirl Giant', and that was one of her best outings to date, cannon or not.

  2. #122
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Harley Quinn seems to be going to be on Batfam.

    https://www.cbr.com/joker-war-harley...tman-protege/?

    They need to stop overhyping Harley Quinn.

  3. #123
    Astonishing Member CPSparkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Harley Quinn seems to be going to be on Batfam.

    https://www.cbr.com/joker-war-harley...tman-protege/?

    They need to stop overhyping Harley Quinn.
    That article is so stupid

    They pretty much took elements of Dick, Jason and Damian and grafted it all on to Harley. I have no issue with Harley being a close ally of Bruce's but don't tell me that

    She's someone who isn't a yes man -Damian's last arc
    understands the grounds, the streets, the heartbeat of Gotham -Jason and duke
    lived in the dark - Jason and Damian
    Can open up to unlike Alfred - Dick
    Someone to test, question and push him - we've seen Jason, Damian and Selina do all those.

  4. #124
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Harley Quinn is overused. It feels like she is a Mary Sue. She is able to escape Diana’s lasso and others. I don’t mind if she was a ally but she rather do her own thing.

  5. #125
    Astonishing Member CPSparkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Harley Quinn is overused. It feels like she is a Mary Sue. She is able to escape Dianaís lasso and others. I donít mind if she was a ally but she rather do her own thing.
    Not anymore than Batman. Popularity increases plot Armour and it didn't start with Harley.

  6. #126
    Mighty Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Harley Quinn seems to be going to be on Batfam.

    https://www.cbr.com/joker-war-harley...tman-protege/?

    They need to stop overhyping Harley Quinn.
    Meh, that article comes across as fanboy gushing IMHO.

  7. #127
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPSparkles View Post
    Not anymore than Batman. Popularity increases plot Armour and it didn't start with Harley.
    True. But I don't really like Batman anymore, either, so....

    Does Marvel do this? I quit reading Marvel with One More Day, so I don't know. But it seems to me it puts more and more eggs into fewer baskets. I get the popular character winning more. And Batman sells. And Batman's part of the Justice League. So non-JL Batfans show up for a big Justice League or even world-wide event. Where Batman, due to plot armor, is smarter, more competent, and more moral than everyone else. So they have no interest in those characters and don't pick up any new books. Meanwhile existing fans either switch allegiance to Batman (more Bat-books sold, less other ones) or give up in disgust. New fans are all Batfans, because no one else contributes much. Just ends up with one star player (or two now, with Harley) and no bench. But I guess as long as total sales are higher, it doesn't matter what they buy.

    I just think if everyone got to look awesome that fan might keep the the Batbook and pick up a another title. But maybe I'm wrong - certainly have no expertise in business.

  8. #128
    Super Member GSman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Harley Quinn seems to be going to be on Batfam.

    https://www.cbr.com/joker-war-harley...tman-protege/?

    They need to stop overhyping Harley Quinn.
    Wouldn't get your info from CBR, they have notoriously bad articles.

  9. #129
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    True. But I don't really like Batman anymore, either, so....

    Does Marvel do this? I quit reading Marvel with One More Day, so I don't know. But it seems to me it puts more and more eggs into fewer baskets. I get the popular character winning more. And Batman sells. And Batman's part of the Justice League. So non-JL Batfans show up for a big Justice League or even world-wide event. Where Batman, due to plot armor, is smarter, more competent, and more moral than everyone else. So they have no interest in those characters and don't pick up any new books. Meanwhile existing fans either switch allegiance to Batman (more Bat-books sold, less other ones) or give up in disgust. New fans are all Batfans, because no one else contributes much. Just ends up with one star player (or two now, with Harley) and no bench. But I guess as long as total sales are higher, it doesn't matter what they buy.

    I just think if everyone got to look awesome that fan might keep the the Batbook and pick up a another title. But maybe I'm wrong - certainly have no expertise in business.
    Does Jean Grey keep getting resurrected count? That's less of a plot armor but more like she's Marvel's darling similar to Babs is to DC.

  10. #130
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Does Jean Grey keep getting resurrected count? That's less of a plot armor but more like she's Marvel's darling similar to Babs is to DC.
    No, I don't really think so, though I could be wrong. I mean, when her codename is "Phoenix" it's kind of built-in. Of course, it wasn't always, not even after she got the name. Though I admit, plenty come back from the dead, she does it with more frequency. But I'm really talking about in the way where the character can do tons of things they just shouldn't be capable of. Then again, given the power up she got when she became Phoenix...

    For me, it's when all other heroes lose abilities, skills, or morals so this hero can look more amazing. When they make others look stupid. When they do the same (bad) things as other heroes, but somehow it's right when they do more often. And even if it isn't, everyone will forgive/forget. But still, if they wouldn't pit heroes against each other so much, it wouldn't matter. Oh, they've always had the contrived meet-and-fight. Not really my thing, but a genre staple. But now, way too often, heroes are each others' opposition in the big stories as much as the villains. And we know who has to win, by and large. And it too often diminishes the other heroes. Maybe that does happen with Jean - like I said, haven't read in ages.

    Admittedly, I don't think Babs is DC's darling. Oh, they like her as Batgirl (especially in other media), no disputing. But beyond that, I'm not seeing it.

  11. #131
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    I miss the status quo where Barbara Gordon was Oracle and Cassandra Cain was Batgirl. Liked the mother/daughter figure relationship they kinda had.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  12. #132
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    No, I don't really think so, though I could be wrong. I mean, when her codename is "Phoenix" it's kind of built-in. Of course, it wasn't always, not even after she got the name. Though I admit, plenty come back from the dead, she does it with more frequency. But I'm really talking about in the way where the character can do tons of things they just shouldn't be capable of. Then again, given the power up she got when she became Phoenix...

    For me, it's when all other heroes lose abilities, skills, or morals so this hero can look more amazing. When they make others look stupid. When they do the same (bad) things as other heroes, but somehow it's right when they do more often. And even if it isn't, everyone will forgive/forget. But still, if they wouldn't pit heroes against each other so much, it wouldn't matter. Oh, they've always had the contrived meet-and-fight. Not really my thing, but a genre staple. But now, way too often, heroes are each others' opposition in the big stories as much as the villains. And we know who has to win, by and large. And it too often diminishes the other heroes. Maybe that does happen with Jean - like I said, haven't read in ages.

    Admittedly, I don't think Babs is DC's darling. Oh, they like her as Batgirl (especially in other media), no disputing. But beyond that, I'm not seeing it.
    Okay so closest thing I know is Bendis Jean Grey outing Iceman as gay by reading his mind that Bobby rightfully said was an invasion of privacy but the story frame it as him not accepting himself and Jean helping him so in the end he's thankful of Jean and another character think Jean is right.

    Btw, keeping to topic, I wonder if I like it better that Talia is older when she met Bruce to make him less of a creep eyeing a college student the same age range of his son, or keeping it because the idea of having Talia and Dick having a Better Mom battle for Damian really amusing
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 10-21-2020 at 01:13 AM.

  13. #133
    Mighty Member nepenthes's Avatar
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    It’s no longer interesting, constructive or even viable to frame the classic villains as cliches of “mental illness”. It was progressive in the 70s and 80s when it started and effective as a framework for a decade or two.. now it’s just awkward and quaint. The framing of Batmans “war on crime” and role as a billionaire should be heavily reconstructed. I know it’s only kids books and IP maintenance but even just in terms of basic myth-making and cultural relevance, everything is overtime for a massive reset.
    Last edited by nepenthes; 10-21-2020 at 05:33 AM.
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  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by nepenthes View Post
    It’s no longer interesting, constructive or even viable to frame the classic villains as cliches of “mental illness”. It was progressive in the 70s and 80s when it started and effective as a framework for a decade or two.. now it’s just awkward and quaint. The framing of Batmans “war on crime” and role as a billionaire should be heavily reconstructed. I know it’s only kids books and IP maintenance but even just in terms of basic myth-making and cultural relevance, everything is overtime for a massive reset.
    Do you think Batman as a community supported entity could work better?

  15. #135
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nepenthes View Post
    It’s no longer interesting, constructive or even viable to frame the classic villains as cliches of “mental illness”. It was progressive in the 70s and 80s when it started and effective as a framework for a decade or two.. now it’s just awkward and quaint.
    Suppose you could give him more non-mentally ill criminals, although it would be tricky to get them to stick unlike the classics, which are largely made up of insane characters. That is an interesting point r.e. the depiction of mental illness in fiction and how it's usually only given negative representation. I mean, Green Lantern Jessica Cruz is the only mentally ill character I can think of who's presented as a hero and her condition is a personal struggle, not some kind of time bomb waiting to go off.

    Quote Originally Posted by nepenthes View Post
    The framing of Batmans “war on crime” and role as a billionaire should be heavily reconstructed. I know it’s only kids books and IP maintenance but even just in terms of basic myth-making and cultural relevance, everything is overtime for a massive reset.
    Seems kinda baked into the premise.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

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