Controversial Batfam ideas

[godisawesome]

Suppose you could give him more non-mentally ill criminals, although it would be tricky to get them to stick unlike the classics, which are largely made up of insane characters. That is an interesting point r.e. the depiction of mental illness in fiction and how it's usually only given negative representation. I mean, Green Lantern Jessica Cruz is the only mentally ill character I can think of who's presented as a hero and her condition is a personal struggle, not some kind of time bomb waiting to go off.



Seems kinda baked into the premise.

Actually considering how fantastical and divorced from reality some of the rogues are even when someone tries to give them some kind of mental illness, just dropping that pretense entirely could do the trick.

Scarecrow works as just a sadist and sociopath who’d still be found mentally competent, Riddler can as well (depending on whether or not you want him to be compulsive or just narcissistic), and plenty of other villains have wound up only included in Arkham’s ranks because “it has the necessary facilities to contain them.”

Honestly, as much as people love the “Gothic madhouse” setting, maybe it would be best to relegate it to Batman and Bruce’s early years in Gotham, and to have established rogues in Blackgate, Maybe with a story of Hugo Strange or someone else abusing mental patients horrifically in Arkham leading it to be shut down by Bruce... but remain uncondemned as a building that the city wants to find a use for no matter how stupid that may seem.

[km_sus]

First of all, I'd keep all the Bat sons, but send them off to their own city. Dick obviously stays in Bludhaven. Jason travels the world because him and his methods are banned from Gotham. Give Tim his own city or have him travel the globe like he did back in the Red Robin days. Since Steph and Tim are an eternal couple now, anywhere Tim goes, she goes; so I guess she's going globetrotting or going to INSERT CITY HERE as well. Obviously Damian is still Robin and stays in Gotham (sorry Damian haters). Barbara in my ideal world would go back to being Oracle. From there I would either have her coordinating from the bat-cave, the clocktower, OR she would serve as overwatch on the Justice League, which I think would appeal to Oracle fans who want to see her have some importance and relevance in the wider DCU. Ideally, Cassandra would also take over as Batgirl again (sorry Steph, love you too) and be alongside Bruce in Gotham.

Moving past the Robins and Batgirls, I think Duke works well as the "Gotham by Day" superhero, which means he'll be asleep for most of the Bat books; because while I like Duke, I do think he's mostly superfluous and doesn't add much to the bat mythos besides stretching my belief even further in trying to convince me that Gotham has any crime with ten bat sidekicks running around. Alternatively, he could become a police officer. Not every Batman supporting character has to be a superhero and I rather enjoyed his depiction in White Knight. With Batwoman I would have her relocate to a new city (Opal City?) or take over for Batman on the Justice League. Although I suppose I don't mind that match if she stays in Gotham.

Jean-Paul can stay but just not be heavily connected. He works better as an ally rather than some dude hanging in the bat-cave. Huntress is retired too I think? I don't really care for the Spyral version of Helena, so she can just stay retired. Additionally, if they're serious about Bruce marrying Selina, make her a permanent fixture of the bat-family as bat-wife and constant pain in Damian's ass. Also, not sure where editorial wants to send Harley: the Suicide Squad, her own non-canon series, or on the main Batman titles - but Tynion's Harley ingratiated herself with me greatly, so I wouldn't mind if Bruce tried to reform her to the side of good. Wouldn't be the first time he converted a killer to his beliefs.

Also if you want a really controversial opinion: I would have Kate killed and have her be the new Spectre.

[Tzigone]

First of all, I'd keep all the Robins, but send them off to their own city. Dick obviously stays in Bludhaven. Jason travels the world because him and his methods are banned from Gotham.

I agree with these.

Give Tim his own city or move him to Bludhaven to help Dick.

It does Tim no good to move from sidekick for one to sidekick to another. He's of an age to grow up and away. He can be on a team or solo (and we know he has carried a solo quite well in the past, albeit with a different personality and he was the first non-Bruce to do so, so had less competition), but he needs to be and independent hero, not a sidekick.

Since Steph and Tim are an eternal couple now anywhere Tim goes, she goes; so I guess she's going to Bludhaven or INSERT CITY HERE too.

I like this, though I don't buy eternal couples in comics anymore.

Obviously Damian is still Robin and stays in Gotham

I agree he belongs there until he grows up.

Barbara in my ideal world would go back to being Oracle. From there I would either have her co-ordinating from the bat-cave, the clocktower, OR she would serve as overwatch as the Justice League, which I think would appeal to Oracle fans who want to see her have some importance and relevance in the wider DCU.

Well, I like her with Dick and would like to see her in Bludhaven, too. And unparalyzed (but not Batgirl). But even if she is Oracle and not with Dick, I want her independent, running the BoP or working as a solo, and definitely not working out of a building Bruce paid for. Double that for the Batcave, where she would be under his watchful eye all the time. She should be an independent hero (as she originally was), not a support for Batman or answerable to him. I similarly feel like her "overwatch" on the Justice league is "working for them" and make work, because they were fine without her. And because it's a team Batman is on, and we know he's going to "outrank" her if both are on the team.

Cassandra would also take over as Batgirl again (sorry Steph, love you too) and be alongside Bruce in Gotham.

While I don't like Batgirl as a legacy title (I'm not a fan of legacies), I do think this worked for Cass at one time. But Bruce was too controlling of her personal life, and that I did not like. But he could be better about that. I'd like a more emotionally healthy Bruce with respect for boundaries. I'm not sure on Cass's age now - a teen, I guess. As time progresses, and she became an adult, she'd need to leave too. Keeping any adult character in Batman's orbit and in his city keeps them subordinate. They can never be his peers or regarded as equals. Every Bat-event, they'll end up taking orders from him.

I like Duke and Riko and Isabella, but would like them more doing their own thing and interacting with Bruce less often, simply because I don't like Batman having a bunch of soldiers. That's even more true for Kate, as she's an adult.

I have no opinion on Harper or Luke. Never read them, and what I read about them wasn't enough to make me want to. And I'm still a bit annoyed they had to create (another) son for Lucius to get a major role instead of using one of the daughters he already had. And for unnecessarily screwing around with their ages/birth orders.

besides stretching my belief even further in trying to convince me that Gotham has any crime with ten bat sidekicks running around

Oh, that just reminds me of my annoyance that Gotham has become the perpetually cursed place of evil in which nothing ever improves.

[km_sus]

Thank you for replying! I agree with your part about Tim, which I edited shortly after I posted. I definitely think having him play second fiddle to Dick is a bad idea and stunts Tim's own growth. What was I thinking really...

With Babs I too am also open to her moving in with Dick. I also agree that she shouldn't be put back into the chair. In my idea for changing the bat-family, Bruce would quit the Justice League and refocus his efforts solely on Gotham, so Barbara working in the watchtower would be less Batman breathing down her neck, but using her skills on global scale.

As for Cass, I think editorial is moving back to a more emotionally mature Bruce. Honestly I'm sick of the mid 2000's Bruce we've been stuck with that builds Skynet, punches his sons and forbids Cass from even talking to boys. That **** was weird and I hope we leave it behind in the dust.

[Tsukiakari1203]

First of all, I'd keep all the Bat sons, but send them off to their own city. Dick obviously stays in Bludhaven. Jason travels the world because him and his methods are banned from Gotham. Give Tim his own city or have him travel the globe like he did back in the Red Robin days. Since Steph and Tim are an eternal couple now, anywhere Tim goes, she goes; so I guess she's going globetrotting or going to INSERT CITY HERE as well. Obviously Damian is still Robin and stays in Gotham (sorry Damian haters). Barbara in my ideal world would go back to being Oracle. From there I would either have her coordinating from the bat-cave, the clocktower, OR she would serve as overwatch on the Justice League, which I think would appeal to Oracle fans who want to see her have some importance and relevance in the wider DCU. Ideally, Cassandra would also take over as Batgirl again (sorry Steph, love you too) and be alongside Bruce in Gotham.

Moving past the Robins and Batgirls, I think Duke works well as the "Gotham by Day" superhero, which means he'll be asleep for most of the Bat books; because while I like Duke, I do think he's mostly superfluous and doesn't add much to the bat mythos besides stretching my belief even further in trying to convince me that Gotham has any crime with ten bat sidekicks running around. Alternatively, he could become a police officer. Not every Batman supporting character has to be a superhero and I rather enjoyed his depiction in White Knight. With Batwoman I would have her relocate to a new city (Opal City?) or take over for Batman on the Justice League. Although I suppose I don't mind that match if she stays in Gotham. Luke Fox... I'm sorry but you are the most useless and superfluous bat character there is. Usually I'd just kill you off, but I suppose if we just wanted to clear space, we could concoct a storyline where Luke has a near death experience and retires to conduct himself to more training. Bruce would recommend the hottest training destinations and Luke would eff off to the Himalayas for a few years.

"Fan favourite Harper Row" is already retired. Make sure she stays that way. Jean-Paul can stay but just not be heavily connected. He works better as an ally rather than some dude hanging in the bat-cave. Huntress is retired too I think? I don't really care for the Spyral version of Helena, so she can just stay retired. Not sure if Gotham Girl is still a thing, but she dies if she overexerts herself, which sounds like an easy way to kill her off. Additionally, if they're serious about Bruce marrying Selina, make her a permanent fixture of the bat-family as bat-wife and constant pain in Damian's ass. Also, not sure where editorial wants to send Harley: the Suicide Squad, her own non-canon series, or on the main Batman titles - but Tynion's Harley ingratiated herself with me greatly, so I wouldn't mind if Bruce tried to reform her to the side of good. Wouldn't be the first time he converted a killer to his beliefs.

Also if you want a really controversial opinion: I would have Kate killed and have her be the new Spectre.

What about Bette, you know the first Batgirl?

[Tsukiakari1203]

Here's a controversial opinion, Babs is the worst Batgirl.

[Stanlos]

Here's a controversial opinion, Babs is the worst Batgirl.

She was AMAZING as Oracle though.

[Tsukiakari1203]

She was AMAZING as Oracle though.

Oh seconded! babs as oracle was awesome!

[Agent Z]

The Batfamily - at least on this site - is far too often scapegoated for Bruce's bad writing.

[Tzigone]

What about Bette, you know the first Batgirl?

Bat-Girl. Which her role as "first" doesn't mean much for me, because I think without a more famous Batgirl later, the name would be a virtual unknown. Bat-Mite had more appearances back then. She's more pre-COIE Duela Dent level. And her (pre-Babs) time was in the era when readers cycled and long-term references were far less a thing. That said, I do like Bette/Betty well enough (though not the Kate-sidekick military version). I'd have her operate in California as an un-Bat character. Not saying a new background is likely to help her (she has several already, like Donna and various Supergirls), but I think the post-COIE background (without the doing it because of a crush on Robin thing) in which she has no historical connection with Batman or Robin, works better in a world without Kathy as Batwoman. And I prefer not having both a Kate and Kathy, and especially to having both as Batwoman - Kathy was far more important than Betty, but less important than Kate, and Kate wasn't intended to be taking on another's mantle when introduced (well, except Bruce's), and I like it that way).

I am fine with Bette being related to Kate, but don't like them related to Bruce for various reasons I've discussed elsewhere. Though I prefer Bette either predate Kate as a hero as she did when Kate was introduced or else be made younger and not an adult in a sidekick role, which like pre-COIE would make her copying Kate in many ways more palatable. If you want to preserve or re-use the Kathy/Betty mentor/student dynamic, I think Bette has to be a kid and Kate a more experienced hero. This happens by making Betty much younger than Dick and his gen or by making Kate debut much earlier. I don't like the unequal dynamic among adults. But I also think having Kate have a minor involved is a bad call for her personality, and so Bette operating/debuting independently of her (as was continuity for decades) is a better call. And I really don't want Kate acquiring minors/family like Bruce did. I'd rather her not do what he did, as she's a spin-off already and more distinction isn't the worst thing.

[Vakanai]

Dick Grayson is overrated and not all that interesting.

[Stanlos]

Dick Grayson is overrated and not all that interesting.

That IS a controversial opinion! I will meet you by the parallel bars at recess!

[lemonpeace]

Dick Grayson is overrated and not all that interesting.

sshhhhh you can't speak the forbidden words...they'll come for us all...

in all seriousness, while I've somewhat warmed to him now more than I was in the past, Dick Grayson is one of those characters who's fandom overhyped their importance to the point it actively makes the character unenjoyable sometimes; it's him, Tim Drake, and Wally West.

[Gaius]

sshhhhh you can't speak the forbidden words...they'll come for us all...

in all seriousness, while I've somewhat warmed to him now more than I was in the past, Dick Grayson is one of those characters who's fandom overhyped their importance to the point it actively makes the character unenjoyable sometimes; it's him, Tim Drake, and Wally West.

I haven't really felt that way about Dick but I'd concur on Tim Drake and Wally West.

[Tsukiakari1203]

Bat-Girl. Which her role as "first" doesn't mean much for me, because I think without a more famous Batgirl later, the name would be a virtual unknown. Bat-Mite had more appearances back then. She's more pre-COIE Duela Dent level. And her (pre-Babs) time was in the era when readers cycled and long-term references were far less a thing. That said, I do like Bette/Betty well enough (though not the Kate-sidekick military version). I'd have her operate in California as an un-Bat character. Not saying a new background is likely to help her (she has several already, like Donna and various Supergirls), but I think the post-COIE background (without the doing it because of a crush on Robin thing) in which she has no historical connection with Batman or Robin, works better in a world without Kathy as Batwoman. And I prefer not having both a Kate and Kathy, and especially to having both as Batwoman - Kathy was far more important than Betty, but less important than Kate, and Kate wasn't intended to be taking on another's mantle when introduced (well, except Bruce's), and I like it that way).

I am fine with Bette being related to Kate, but don't like them related to Bruce for various reasons I've discussed elsewhere. Though I prefer Bette either predate Kate as a hero as she did when Kate was introduced or else be made younger and not an adult in a sidekick role, which like pre-COIE would make her copying Kate in many ways more palatable. If you want to preserve or re-use the Kathy/Betty mentor/student dynamic, I think Bette has to be a kid and Kate a more experienced hero. This happens by making Betty much younger than Dick and his gen or by making Kate debut much earlier. I don't like the unequal dynamic among adults. But I also think having Kate have a minor involved is a bad call for her personality, and so Bette operating/debuting independently of her (as was continuity for decades) is a better call. And I really don't want Kate acquiring minors/family like Bruce did. I'd rather her not do what he did, as she's a spin-off already and more distinction isn't the worst thing.

I may disagree with you on some points but I appreciate that you love Bette Kane