Controversial Batfam ideas

[Bat-Meal]

I find it still very strange that they treated her as Bruce equal in rebirth, since she is one of the newest characters and everybody (except Damian and the characters created post Flashpoint) is doing the hero thing longer then her.

That's because collectively the writers are contradictory in what they want to do with the character.

She was introduced as seemingly a peer to Nightwing, and really he was the one who welcomed her to the Batfamily in the first place: all things considered she seemed to be of his generation IMO. Then in her (1st) solo she's a contemporary of Batman and 32, and independent from him (she refuses his offer to join the Batfam). Next time we see her she's suddenly his younger cousin (all implications they didn't know each other before), and accepts his offer to join the Batfam. Second solo she's de-aged to 27, doing globetrotting to hunt down The Many Arms of Death on Batman's orders, and Julia is her Pennyworth that's it's revealed Batman sent to spy on and babysit her.

That's all I can be bothered with for now, ugh.

[Avi]

Controversial opinions? I'm glad Alfred's dead. He hasn't really added much to stories in a while, and I hated how he was written in most of them. It was cheesy.

Never thought I'd agree so strongly with this but now that I have read it, yes. I think at least a few Alfred-less years would be interesting. Even if his absence is simply handwaved by visiting Julia in limbo.

[CPSparkles]

Well... technically he was not because he was only in it for himself and his family, so he's more like Talia at that point, but he can be a hero without the name

.

He had left the LOA and was already in Gotham working as a hero before he became a member of the Batfamily.

I don't agree with getting rid of any characters. I find it very entitled when fans call for killing off characters that others care about just because one doesn't like them. Especially commercially successful ones.

If you don't like a character then don't read them. If they turn up in a title you usually pull then suck it up.


I do think that DC should enforce some type of policy where creators aren't allowed to create new characters if there already exists one that can fill the function in the story.

Develop the character you have rather than creating more. All most characters need is a good writer that can use them to tell interesting stories.

[Restingvoice]

He had left the LOA and was already in Gotham working as a hero before he became a member of the Batfamily.

I don't agree with getting rid of any characters. I find it very entitled when fans call for killing off characters that others care about just because one doesn't like them. Especially commercially successful ones.

He did?

No... wait... you're right. Batman Reborn. He was fighting when Dick picked him up. I don't remember how he left the League though since he's still accompanied by Talia in RIP.

I agree with that. It's funny how a thousand discussions about The Flash and Robin haven't clued people in.

[Tsukiakari1203]

Gets to have a cousin-rivalry situation going on with him: which is a different relationship to that of the others who are his children/students, friends, or parent (in Alfred's case). She doesn't absolutely have to be a part of the Batfamily though IMO, just like Spider-Man and Spider-Woman are not really connected. I'd be quite happy to have her in a good team book somewhere without any of the other Batfamily members around, but that's just me.

Bruce only has 2 cousins and they both get to annoy him.

[Tsukiakari1203]

That's because collectively the writers are contradictory in what they want to do with the character.

She was introduced as seemingly a peer to Nightwing, and really he was the one who welcomed her to the Batfamily in the first place: all things considered she seemed to be of his generation IMO. Then in her (1st) solo she's a contemporary of Batman and 32, and independent from him (she refuses his offer to join the Batfam). Next time we see her she's suddenly his younger cousin (all implications they didn't know each other before), and accepts his offer to join the Batfam. Second solo she's de-aged to 27, doing globetrotting to hunt down The Many Arms of Death on Batman's orders, and Julia is her Pennyworth that's it's revealed Batman sent to spy on and babysit her.

That's all I can be bothered with for now, ugh.

I think Kate is Bruce's generation while Kathy is about 7 years older than them. I think Kathy was a trophy wife for Nathan

[AmiMizuno]

I mean it makes sense Batgirl is 7 years older than Dick. It seems to be a consistence thing

[Caivu]

That's because collectively the writers are contradictory in what they want to do with the character.

She was introduced as seemingly a peer to Nightwing, and really he was the one who welcomed her to the Batfamily in the first place: all things considered she seemed to be of his generation IMO. Then in her (1st) solo she's a contemporary of Batman and 32, and independent from him (she refuses his offer to join the Batfam). Next time we see her she's suddenly his younger cousin (all implications they didn't know each other before), and accepts his offer to join the Batfam. Second solo she's de-aged to 27, doing globetrotting to hunt down The Many Arms of Death on Batman's orders, and Julia is her Pennyworth that's it's revealed Batman sent to spy on and babysit her.

There's no contradiction in any of this besides the de-aging. Later reveals and character developments aren't contradictions, or at least not here.

Is it really a rivalry though, Kate just doesn't appear to be on Batman's level at all and in any capacity. So when Director Bones ordered her to capture Batman I knew that Bruce was gonna be jobbing hard.

Holy circular reasoning, Batman! Of course she's not going to seem like she's on his level if you just... ignore everything about her. And Bruce hardly jobbed in that case; Kate had the benefit of an ambush and traps and Bruce was going relatively easy, and she still just barely managed to capture him.

[prepmaster]

Holy circular reasoning, Batman! Of course she's not going to seem like she's on his level if you just... ignore everything about her. And Bruce hardly jobbed in that case; Kate had the benefit of an ambush and traps and Bruce was going relatively easy, and she still just barely managed to capture him.

We are talking about the guy who escaped from Superman so it was definitely jobbing.

[prepmaster]

Batfam should have only 4 people. The main guy, his long time crime fighting partner Dick Grayson, his bloodson Damian Wayne and a technical/medical support member like Alfred or Oracle. Jason Todd should be a foil or even a villain to Batman.

[Caivu]

We are talking about the guy who escaped from Superman so it was definitely jobbing.

Do you use the same logic when anyone lower than Superman in terms of power captures Batman? Because plenty of other such characters have.

[The tall man]

There's no contradiction in any of this besides the de-aging. Later reveals and character developments aren't contradictions, or at least not here.



Holy circular reasoning, Batman! Of course she's not going to seem like she's on his level if you just... ignore everything about her. And Bruce hardly jobbed in that case; Kate had the benefit of an ambush and traps and Bruce was going relatively easy, and she still just barely managed to capture him.

What exactly is being ignored, do you honestly believe she is Bruce's equal and on his level in any capacity. Bruce has been doing this far longer than her, he is far better trained and skilled in all areas and has far more experience, those are facts. No slight against Kate, she is good but it is what it is. Could Kate survive all the things Bruce deals with? If Joker sets his sights on her could she handle a "Joker War", can she deal with the "Court of Owls", a competent non-jobbing Bane, a deadly Deathstroke, a focused and determined Ra's al Ghul, and the countless other adversaries Batman deals with? My honest belief is no she cannot. And there is nothing wrong with that, there are very few who are on Batman's level.

[Caivu]

Could Kate survive all the things Bruce deals with? If Joker sets his sights on her could she handle a "Joker War", can she deal with the "Court of Owls", a competent non-jobbing Bane, a deadly Deathstroke, a focused and determined Ra's al Ghul, and the countless other adversaries Batman deals with?

I mean, she already has in a lot of ways. She's captured Talons without issue. She's captured Mr. Freeze with little issue. She captured Bane without much issue (and just because she did that doesn't mean he was jobbing; that's circular logic again). She's beaten up Croc on multiple occasions. Etc. So yes, I think she could handle every scenario you describe here. As well as Batman, or in the same way? No, probably not. But she could succeed.

I don't get what's not convincing you here, but it's clearly something. Why do you call it "jobbing" when she's successful against Batman's rogues instead of seeing it as Kate being skilled?

[godisawesome]

...I would actually say the best thing for the Batfamily to do would be to actually insist that, in terms of combat effectiveness, durability and threat-level, all adult members are equal to Bruce, and stop thrift o maintain some “primacy” for him.

Basically, have editorial mandate any Worf Effect with any Batfamily member unless Bruce is being used for it as well. They could use some AEW-style smarts in their “booking” and recognize that elevating all players by allowing some of the top carders to lose occasionally is a good idea; let Bruce go down and need to be rescued by Kate, or Dick, or Babs.

I’m not saying you couldn’t make it so certain characters have other characters’ “number” in particular scenarios - in fact, I’d say that’s exactly what you should do - but that anytime someone, even a Scott Snyder, Grant Morrison, or Tom King level-Star wants to hype up a villain by having them beat the other Batfamily members, you are them keep it “even” later in some other book.

[Godlike13]

Bruce jobs. Tec he did it like every arc.