Who's the fastest character Post Crisis Cassandra Cain can blitz?

[Marvel-Studios Rep]

1) Blitz being wtv defintion you give it. Cain has Full Gear.

2) Same as above. No Gear.

Bonus scenario:

If Cain was locked up in the UFC octagon with Slade, Batman, Captain America and Punisher all at once?

[big_adventure]

The definition of blitz around here means something pretty specific - it's "can attack too quickly for their foe to respond" and that, for a high-end bullet-timer like Cass, is somewhere around CBPH for me. So, right around Batman/Cap level guys, one at a time. Post-crisis Shiva is a bridge too far - she's not a BT but she's somewhere in the nebulous "faster than Bruce/Steve" range.

For fight 4, assuming they are all unarmed or lightly armed, the gang should take the majority I'd say: the environment is small enough to prevent Cass dancing around them and separating them. Slade is in that Shiva "faster then Bruce" range. So we are dealing with a guy more skilled and faster than Bruce/Cap, Bruce and Cap, plus a guy who's a tier below but who has on-panel feats for fighting through pressure-points performed by someone who's at least as good at such things as Cass. She can't really evade them casually in the small environment, and once they get hands on her, her speed edge isn't going to save her. She might still win some.

[Sharpandpointies]

Gear or no-gear, it's pretty much the same. As big notes, hereabouts (by ruling, in fact) Cass can blitz someone roughly on the CBPH level. This is at least held up by a couple of feats in her own comic.

For the fight, Cass loses because you have at least three people there with high-explosives, who under bloodlust will be perfectly willing to use them.

Assuming it's purely hand to hand?

1. Slade is fast enough to fight her, so she can't ignore him to drop the others.
2. The others can therefore actually contribute something, though Frank is...not worth a whole lot in this fight, being below Bruce and Cap in almost every way.

But here's the thing - Cass has something they don't have: the body-reading. She knows when they're going to attack, where they're going to move, and how. So she CAN set up situations where she avoids Slade and takes out someone with pressure points, wearing down the opposition until it's basically her against Slade. She'll likely have been hit before that, but will it slow her enough that she can't beat Slade? *wiggles hand*

I'd say she still has decent odds.

Mileage, etc.

BTW, big, Matt's pressure points worked on Frank just fine. The fact that Frank kept fighting after Matt killed his arm doesn't change the fact that Matt still killed his arm. ^_^

[big_adventure]

Fair enough - I thought he made the arm work again despite the pressure-pointing, but it's been a while since I read the comic.

As for the analysis on the group match...

Yeah, I suppose. The body-reading for me though is something that's a part of her speed and agility and fighting style. We're already taking some of it into account with the medium edge over Slade and the big edges over everyone else here. Also, if this was in Khazan, I'd say she wins 8 or 9 out of 10 against these guys, because she could set them up as you describe, and manage to face them one or two at a time. In an MMA octogon, though, it's small, and these are three large men, all with gymnastics and strength feats equal to Cass', and another large man who's at least got crazy soak and the ability to occupy some space. I think she'd have a drastically harder time playing hard-to-get against all 4 of them, so her speed would be less of an advantage, swinging the edge to the otherwise-outclassed men.

[Sharpandpointies]

Fair enough - I thought he made the arm work again despite the pressure-pointing, but it's been a while since I read the comic.

As for the analysis on the group match...

Yeah, I suppose. The body-reading for me though is something that's a part of her speed and agility and fighting style. We're already taking some of it into account with the medium edge over Slade and the big edges over everyone else here. Also, if this was in Khazan, I'd say she wins 8 or 9 out of 10 against these guys, because she could set them up as you describe, and manage to face them one or two at a time. In an MMA octogon, though, it's small, and these are three large men, all with gymnastics and strength feats equal to Cass', and another large man who's at least got crazy soak and the ability to occupy some space. I think she'd have a drastically harder time playing hard-to-get against all 4 of them, so her speed would be less of an advantage, swinging the edge to the otherwise-outclassed men.

Body-reading is combat precog. Her speed is separate. There's a time where she's slowed down after losing the body-reading, but that's likely due to unfamiliarity/hesitation at the lack, because later on - without the body-reading - she's explicitly shown to be moving at ridiculous speeds again.

Regarding fighting in close quarters, she's demonstrated the capacity to dodge/evade attacks from behind, fight perfectly when blindfolded (which would, yes, seal off the body-reading but she still fights perfectly), dodge bullets coming in from her blind side, etc. And it's not just art, it's something explicitly shown in her comics as part of her training (back to comic book martial art weirdness, yes). There are even scenes where she's fighting a group of the League of Assassins and is right in the middle of a knot of them, contorting her body around the attacks of three different people while beating them up.

I think she can manage this, with difficulty and certainly with losses.

[big_adventure]

Body-reading is combat precog. Her speed is separate. There's a time where she's slowed down after losing the body-reading, but that's likely due to unfamiliarity/hesitation at the lack, because later on - without the body-reading - she's explicitly shown to be moving at ridiculous speeds again.

Regarding fighting in close quarters, she's demonstrated the capacity to dodge/evade attacks from behind, fight perfectly when blindfolded (which would, yes, seal off the body-reading but she still fights perfectly), dodge bullets coming in from her blind side, etc. And it's not just art, it's something explicitly shown in her comics as part of her training (back to comic book martial art weirdness, yes). There are even scenes where she's fighting a group of the League of Assassins and is right in the middle of a knot of them, contorting her body around the attacks of three different people while beating them up.

I think she can manage this, with difficulty and certainly with losses.

Oh, you know I love me some Cass.

There's just a massive difference between 3 generic League mooks and the guys here. I'm not saying it's a stomp, I'd just give the edge in the octogon to the boys. I'd still give her the edge in a larger area.

[Sharpandpointies]

Oh, you know I love me some Cass.

There's just a massive difference between 3 generic League mooks and the guys here. I'm not saying it's a stomp, I'd just give the edge in the octogon to the boys. I'd still give her the edge in a larger area.

To clarify, they weren't actually generic League mooks, this was back when the League was all name-level people. But that's fair. It's not like either of us is claiming it's going to be a stomp either way; mileage does vary.

[Marvel-Studios Rep]

The difference between gear and no gear js thag Cass can throw stuff tp bkitz someone. Now, I am not sure she can throw faster than she can move, like bullseye. However, I believe the pppprtunity to throw increases her range. So, if soneone was too far for her to run up to and punch, it might help.

[Sharpandpointies]

The difference between gear and no gear js thag Cass can throw stuff tp bkitz someone. Now, I am not sure she can throw faster than she can move, like bullseye. However, I believe the pppprtunity to throw increases her range. So, if soneone was too far for her to run up to and punch, it might help.

Thing is, if she's throwing stuff, people can react to the stuff she throws, rather than to her. It doesn't matter how quickly Cass can get, for example, a thrown batarang in the air, if someone can react to thrown weapons they can react to her thrown Batarang (assuming she's not tossing it at bullet-speed, which she does not).

As an example, let's say Cass chucks a batarang at Batman. She certainly gets it out of her belt and hurls it toward him faster than he can do the same. But once it's in the air...Bruce has caught crossbow bolts, caught arrows loosed by Oliver Queen coming at him from behind. I don't really see a problem with him avoiding a thrown batarang.

Also, Cass has flat-out out-ran one of her own Batarangs over a 20-30' distance - she threw the Batarang, noticed it wouldn't arrive in time, and by dint of extreme effort got there before the batarang did to put her own body in the path of a bullet.

Basically, gear isn't going to make a difference for her blitzing someone - that's something based on her own speed, not the speed of a thrown object.

[Sharpandpointies]

I guess there's some argument that Cass can blitz people better if she's in her Cass-umi gear, but that's pretty gear-specific and more a function of teleportation combined with speed rather than just speed alone.

[big_adventure]

To clarify, they weren't actually generic League mooks, this was back when the League was all name-level people. But that's fair. It's not like either of us is claiming it's going to be a stop either way; mileage does vary.

Ah. It's all good. Mileage. Kilometrage. Hyperspace bypasses. It all varies. If it's a stop, however, mileage and all of the others are zero, so...

Sorry, sorry, I'll let myself out.

[Sharpandpointies]

....I still think Captain Morgan's typo of the day is more funny.

Milage, etc. ^_^

[Captain Morgan]

Grumble grumble grumble.

Wasn't one of those League Members Shrike, who himself basically team wrecked Nightwing's entire rogue gallery and casually took apart Tim Drake? That's probably not Bruce level, but it's not for nothing.

[Sharpandpointies]

Grumble grumble grumble.

Wasn't one of those League Members Shrike, who himself basically team wrecked Nightwing's entire rogue gallery and casually took apart Tim Drake? That's probably not Bruce level, but it's not for nothing.

It was, and Cass was operating on the absolute dregs of energy: been awake literally for days, locked in ice for hours, fought Shiva, fought hordes of undead, that kind of things. To the point where Cass, herself (with some absolutely ludicrous endurance feats), actually points this out.

Shrike having trained himself up as well (with Shiva) since their last encounter where she treated him like garbage after he whupped Tim.