why was Dick graduated from Robin to Nightwing?

[Badou]

DC has two Robins right now, basically anyway, and their not doing any better with them.

That is kind of the issue. They have oversaturated the Robin identity where now they don't have room for all the Robin-like characters and it is this role where characters "graduate" from. I'm not the biggest fan of it turning into that.

Back in the 90s Tim was the bigger character than Nightwing as well. That continued all the way up until arguably when Dick became Batman under Morrison. Tim as Robin was the one that set the ground work for characters like Nightwing and Batgirl getting their own solo titles. He was the first Batman character to expand beyond what the typical role of Robin was. The idea would be if Dick was Robin back then, and even if he was deaged, he would have probably occupied that role and would have gotten the large push in the 90s. So instead of Nightwing it might be a Robin solo book that would still be ongoing right now.

[Flash Gordon]

By that logic Robin as is should never have happened to begin with because a kid sidekick in a bright costume doesn't make sense partnering with a gritty dark knight, even if the contrast is the point.

And most of the Robins grow out of the identity by the time there's a new Robin so it's not just a bunch of kids together at one time, with maybe one or two Batgirls but Babs is almost always an adult.

Unless we're talking about the We Are Robin movement...

It actually makes a lot of sense to partner Batman and Robin. The contrast in their colour schemes and personalities are highly aesthetic and compelling. Robin's devil-may-care Errol Flynn attitude is also juxtaposed against Batman's somber heroic persona. Whether Robin is a child or not isn't important to that idea.

You're ignoring the tonal shift in Batman stories in the 1980s. Prior to that the large swath of Batman and Robin were colourful adventurers in silly situations. The darker, more adult narratives that Batman found himself in during this time would be fine for Robin too. Who knows how Batman and Robin would have developed if Dick grew in the role rather than making the role an ongoing bar mitzvah.

[Konja7]

That is kind of the issue. They have oversaturated the Robin identity where now they don't have room for all the Robin-like characters and it is this role where characters "graduate" from. I'm not the biggest fan of it turning into that.

Back in the 90s Tim was the bigger character than Nightwing as well. That continued all the way up until arguably when Dick became Batman under Morrison. Tim as Robin was the one that set the ground work for characters like Nightwing and Batgirl getting their own solo titles. He was the first Batman character to expand beyond what the typical role of Robin was. The idea would be if Dick was Robin back then, and even if he was deaged, he would have probably occupied that role and would have gotten the large push in the 90s. So instead of Nightwing it might be a Robin solo book that would still be ongoing right now.

Technically, Dick as Robin was the first Batman character to expand beyond what the typical role of Robin was. Dick as Robin has a good amount of indenpendent adventures (not only with the Teen Titans).

However, you're right that Tim as Robin in the 90s was the one that set the ground work for characters for solo titles in the Batfamily. If Dick was Robin at that time, he will likely the first to get a solo.

[Godlike13]

That is kind of the issue. They have oversaturated the Robin identity where now they don't have room for all the Robin-like characters and it is this role where characters "graduate" from. I'm not the biggest fan of it turning into that.

Back in the 90s Tim was the bigger character than Nightwing as well. That continued all the way up until arguably when Dick became Batman under Morrison. Tim as Robin was the one that set the ground work for characters like Nightwing and Batgirl getting their own solo titles. He was the first Batman character to expand beyond what the typical role of Robin was. The idea would be if Dick was Robin back then, and even if he was deaged, he would have probably occupied that role and would have gotten the large push in the 90s. So instead of Nightwing it might be a Robin solo book that would still be ongoing right now.

For a hot second in comics the new Robin was a hotter prospect, but it didn’t last very long, nor did it ever extend out of comics. Even Dick as Nightwing is bigger then Tim as Robin ever was out of comics, and it wasn’t long before he superseded him again in comics once the newness wore off. The Robin series set the ground work for other spin off solos, that is true, but he wasn’t the first to expand beyond the typical role. Dick was with NTT. Which is what ultimately lead to Nightwing. The Bat office wanting the typical Robin back, and Wolfman wanting the Robin he expanded on.

I guess if Tim faired better then he ultimately has I could understand more of the merits of being bigger in the 90’s, but as it stands I’m not really seeing the benefit of that. At this point Nightwing is part of the Robin mythos, and vice versa. Possibly having Robin solo book over a Nightwing solo book is a wash, he’s not gaining a solo he didn’t already have, and out of comics Dick is both Robin and Nightwing. So it’s not like he’s losing out on opportunities cause Tim was bigger in the 90’s. This isn’t like with Babs and Batgirl where it comes with a slew of new platforms and opportunity, like monthly publication with a solo or more other media appearances. And the idea that they would push him more or treat him better, just look at the current Robins and you can see that they are no more interested in doing any better with Robin then they are Nightwing.

[WonderNight]

Well at this point nightwing or Robin they both share the same niche and role so what difference does it make.

[AmiMizuno]

Or maybe DC could actually try to have nightwing be independent for once. Let him have he's own mythos.

The question is what is his own myth? They have been really putting him in Batman myths that sometimes it's hard to know what's his own. Like we know he did have connections with the police. What is Bludhaven? Who are his allies? We know there is Blockbuster and raptor but what about Deathstroke.

[Badou]

For a hot second in comics the new Robin was a hotter prospect, but it didn’t last very long, nor did it ever extend out of comics. Dick as Nightwing is bigger then Tim as Robin ever was out of comics, and it wasn’t long before he superseded him again in comics once the newness wore off. The Robin series set the ground work for other spin off solos, that is true, but he wasn’t the first to expand beyond the typical role. Dick was with NTT. Which is what ultimately lead to Nightwing. The Bat office wanting the typical Robin back, and Wolfman wanting the Robin he expanded on.

I guess if Tim faired better then he ultimately has I could understand more of the merits of being bigger in the 90’s, but as it stands I’m not really seeing the benefit of that. At this point Nightwing is part of the Robin mythos, and vice versa. Possibly having Robin solo book over a Nightwing solo book is a wash, he’s not gaining a solo he didn’t already have, and out of comics Dick is both Robin and Nightwing. So it’s not like he’s losing out on opportunities cause Tim was bigger in the 90’s. This isn’t like with Babs and Batgirl where it comes with a slew of new platforms and opportunity, like monthly publication with a solo or more other media appearances. And the idea that they would push him more or treat him better, just look at the current Robins and you can see that they are no more interested in doing any better with Robin then they are Nightwing.

You can say that Tim's Robin series and Dick's Nightwing series were even back then with both jumping over the other at different points, but Tim's Teen Titans series crushed Dick's Outsiders or Titans series over that same time. Even Tim's Young Justice series had more influence on the comics compared to Dick's team books over that time as well when you look at lasting impact they had. I mean it isn't until recently that Nightwing had any real appearances outside of comics with the 2nd and 3rd season of the YJ show and season 2 of the live action Titans show. Most of Dick's other media appearances were always as Robin or very limited appearances as Nightwing. Nightwing is finally getting his first proper video game appearance in that Gotham Knights game, but again that is also with two other Robins diffusing their role between the 3 of them. I mean Red Hood was outpacing Nightwing in other media appearances until recently and is arguably more popular than Nightwing in the non-comic fandom because of it. Even in those recent DC animated movies Damian as Robin was pushed as the lead character across them with Nightwing defaulting to that supporting role.

Also most of Dick's classic NTT stories happened while he was Robin and not Nightwing. Which is why Robin is the more iconic Titans leader over Nightwing. So I don't know if Dick going back to Batman would have really hurt his role in the Titans historically. Nightwing in the NTT series really stagnated and it was when the Batman office took the character back did Nightwing finally start to develop again anyway.

But here is where I think where are opinions aren't aligning. If Dick kept the Robin identity then the other Robins don't exist. So its influence isn't spread and diffused across multiple characters. Every Robin appearance and adaptation would be Dick Grayson and not a different Robin or some combination of a couple of them. So you have to consolidate how all the Robins are being used now into one, which would be far greater than Nightwing, imo. Also you don't have the situation where the Robins are pigeonholed into "basic" personality types that they are now where it limits their characters. So you can't really look at how Robin is being written now and then say that is how Dick would be written as Robin because there are 4 of them running around. The circumstances would be completely different.

Had Dick kept the Robin identity then I think the character would be better off than he is now because Nightwing is beneath the Robin brand, so I think it would allow for more opportunities, and also the Robin role would be completely vertically integrated with Dick's character. So the role of creator of Robin, Batman's sidekick, leader of the Titans, and also having a solo Robin title would be Dick's completely without the other Robins having partial ownership of those roles. You look at it now and Tim or Damian have been used more in the Titans than Nightwing the last decade plus. Things like that are what I mean when I talk about the diffusing of the Robin role between the different Robins. Also Dick's character wouldn't be split between two roles where instead all the focus could be on building one. That would be important and is what characters like Batman and Superman have. That complete vertical integration and focus on one role across all media.

[Restingvoice]

Branding wise, yes, if Dick remains Robin he doesn't have to share the brand, and like Bruce, became the only person associated with that brand, because people don't like that Robin 80th anniversary has to be shared apparently. No more protesting of using different costumes and weapons, sharing abilities and personalities, even supporting cast like Teen Titans Starfire, Cyborg, Beast Boy, and Raven.

[AmiMizuno]

I don't know. Characters like Donna got major help due to NTT but after that they been adrif. The same with Cassie. So I think it would have hurt his branding.

[Godlike13]

You can say that Tim's Robin series and Dick's Nightwing series were even back then with both jumping over the other at different points, but Tim's Teen Titans series crushed Dick's Outsiders or Titans series over that same time. Even Tim's Young Justice series had more influence on the comics compared to Dick's team books over that time as well when you look at lasting impact they had. I mean it isn't until recently that Nightwing had any real appearances outside of comics with the 2nd and 3rd season of the YJ show and season 2 of the live action Titans show. Most of Dick's other media appearances were always as Robin or very limited appearances as Nightwing. Nightwing is finally getting his first proper video game appearance in that Gotham Knights game, but again that is also with two other Robins diffusing their role between the 3 of them. I mean Red Hood was outpacing Nightwing in other media appearances until recently and is arguably more popular than Nightwing in the non-comic fandom because of it. Even in those recent DC animated movies Damian as Robin was pushed as the lead character across them with Nightwing defaulting to that supporting role.

Also most of Dick's classic NTT stories happened while he was Robin and not Nightwing. Which is why Robin is the more iconic Titans leader over Nightwing. So I don't know if Dick going back to Batman would have really hurt his role in the Titans historically. Nightwing in the NTT series really stagnated and it was when the Batman office took the character back did Nightwing finally start to develop again anyway.

But here is where I think where are opinions aren't aligning. If Dick kept the Robin identity then the other Robins don't exist. So its influence isn't spread and diffused across multiple characters. Every Robin appearance and adaptation would be Dick Grayson and not a different Robin or some combination of a couple of them. So you have to consolidate how all the Robins are being used now into one, which would be far greater than Nightwing, imo. Also you don't have the situation where the Robins are pigeonholed into "basic" personality types that they are now where it limits their characters. So you can't really look at how Robin is being written now and then say that is how Dick would be written as Robin because there are 4 of them running around. The circumstances would be completely different.

Had Dick kept the Robin identity then I think the character would be better off than he is now because Nightwing is beneath the Robin brand, so I think it would allow for more opportunities, and also the Robin role would be completely vertically integrated with Dick's character. So the role of creator of Robin, Batman's sidekick, leader of the Titans, and also having a solo Robin title would be Dick's completely without the other Robins having partial ownership of those roles. You look at it now and Tim or Damian have been used more in the Titans than Nightwing the last decade plus. Things like that are what I mean when I talk about the diffusing of the Robin role between the different Robins. Also Dick's character wouldn't be split between two roles where instead all the focus could be on building one. That would be important and is what characters like Batman and Superman have. That complete vertical integration and focus on one role across all media.

Ya, and how long did that Teen Titans success last. You can cherry pick Tim’s most successful ventures and pit them to what Dick was doing at that particular all you want, but at the end of the day that all proved to be fleeting. All while Nightwing has been stepping into other media since BTAS, while still being the most used Robin as well. At this point there where there is a Robin, or Red Hood even, there’s Nightwing. Nightwing is far from being out paced by other Robins save for himself. And still just crushes Tim’s 90’s Robin in that regard.

Ya, they expanded on Robin beyond his typical role to the point where when they wanted to have him return to his typical role they instead created Nightwing so they can keep what they had done. And because it was so successful they were able to do it.

Consolidate how all the Robins are being used and it’s still equals terrible, as none of them are being used very well. When you look at how they use Robin they just have them emulate and copy what Dick did. Which they can’t exactly do that with Dick as that is what leads to stagnation with him.

[Frontier]

How could you consolidate the Robins? Most of what differentiates is them is because writers were able to do stuff with the other Robins that they couldn't do with Dick.

[Digifiend]

I don't know. Characters like Donna got major help due to NTT but after that they been adrif. The same with Cassie. So I think it would have hurt his branding.

Worse than adrift. Both Wonder Girls have been badly affected by reboots (post-Crisis in Donna's case, New 52 for Cassie).

[WonderNight]

Has Dick ever been more redundant, irrelevant and disconnected in comics than he is right now?

Send him to another franchise or retire him.

[Anodyne]

I like Nightwing, but Dick could have become his own man as Robin too I think. Dick's character will always be tied to Batman in some way regardless if he is Robin or not, but Robin could have evolved over time with Dick's character like Nightwing did. It's just Robin is a bigger brand than Nightwing. So Dick giving that up for Nightwing will always lower his level of influence since Robin is one of the few iconic identities in comics. Plus it is an identity Dick created himself which to me makes it more personal instead of taking it from someone or something else like he did with Nightwing. Which is a name he has very loose ties to these days with him not really being involved much with Superman anymore.

DC did that with the Earth 2 Robin, making him a member of the Justice Society. There was a scene after E2 Bruce's death in which Dick intended to become the new Batman, but Bruce's daughter Helena was against it. He should continue the Batman's work as Robin, she as the Huntress. "Only legends live forever," she told him.

Then DC killed them both off near the end of Crisis on Infinite Earths.

[Badou]

Ya, and how long did that Teen Titans success last. You can cherry pick Tim’s most successful ventures and pit them to what Dick was doing at that particular all you want, but at the end of the day that all proved to be fleeting. All while Nightwing has been stepping into other media since BTAS, while still being the most used Robin as well. At this point there where there is a Robin, or Red Hood even, there’s Nightwing. Nightwing is far from being out paced by other Robins save for himself. And still just crushes Tim’s 90’s Robin in that regard.

Ya, they expanded on Robin beyond his typical role to the point where when they wanted to have him return to his typical role they instead created Nightwing so they can keep what they had done. And because it was so successful they were able to do it.

Consolidate how all the Robins are being used and it’s still equals terrible, as none of them are being used very well. When you look at how they use Robin they just have them emulate and copy what Dick did. Which they can’t exactly do that with Dick as that is what leads to stagnation with him.

It took forever for Nightwing to get any proper other media appearances though. He was lagging way behind for decades, and now that he is finally getting them his appearances as Robin are lessening. They are more likely to use Damian, Tim, or even Jason now who has seen an uptick in his appearances as Robin. That will increase even more as time goes on as Dick moves further and further away from the Robin identity, imo.

But I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this. I don't see how Nightwing is better than if Dick didn't just retain the Robin identity, especially with how easily DC strips Dick of that history that was vital to his character and how the Nightwing identity had to be saved by the Batman office anyway. People aren't even sure what Nightwing's origin story is right now. It's ridiculous while Robin's is cemented in popular culture. There is just no comparison between the two identities to me. I mean those post crisis NTT stories that were SO important are basically irrelevant now. Most of the classic and memorable NTT stories happened when Dick was Robin anyway. So Dick losing one of the few iconic identities in comics for stories that DC basically doesn't care about anymore will always be a negative outcome in my opinion.

How could you consolidate the Robins? Most of what differentiates is them is because writers were able to do stuff with the other Robins that they couldn't do with Dick.

You aren't taking their stores and just saying that is what would have been done with Dick, but it is more about consolidating their opportunities. So Dick might have been written by more of the late 80s Batman writers that redefined the franchise, Dick would have gotten a solo book sooner, would have been the one to get a modern Robin costume, he might have been part of the Young Justice team that they wanted to create and so on. They might have even done a Death in the Family style story with Dick, but this time Robin survives it. JGL's character in The Dark Knight Returns movie by Nolan probably would have just been Dick Grayson instead of "Robin". Things like that where all of the Robin's opportunities are aligned within one single character.