why was Dick graduated from Robin to Nightwing?

[Tsukiakari1203]

It took forever for Nightwing to get any proper other media appearances though. He was lagging way behind for decades, and now that he is finally getting them his appearances as Robin are lessening. They are more likely to use Damian, Tim, or even Jason now who has seen an uptick in his appearances as Robin. That will increase even more as time goes on as Dick moves further and further away from the Robin identity, imo.

But I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this. I don't see how Nightwing is better than if Dick didn't just retain the Robin identity, especially with how easily DC strips Dick of that history that was vital to his character and how the Nightwing identity had to be saved by the Batman office anyway. People aren't even sure what Nightwing's origin story is right now. It's ridiculous while Robin's is cemented in popular culture. There is just no comparison between the two identities to me. I mean those post crisis NTT stories that were SO important are basically irrelevant now. Most of the classic and memorable NTT stories happened when Dick was Robin anyway. So Dick losing one of the few iconic identities in comics for stories that DC basically doesn't care about anymore will always be a negative outcome in my opinion.



You aren't taking their stores and just saying that is what would have been done with Dick, but it is more about consolidating their opportunities. So Dick might have been written by more of the late 80s Batman writers that redefined the franchise, Dick would have gotten a solo book sooner, would have been the one to get a modern Robin costume, he might have been part of the Young Justice team that they wanted to create and so on. They might have even done a Death in the Family style story with Dick, but this time Robin survives it. JGL's character in The Dark Knight Returns movie by Nolan probably would have just been Dick Grayson instead of "Robin". Things like that where all of the Robin's opportunities are aligned within one single character.

Steph's appeared even less than all of them and She's a Robin

[Frontier]

You aren't taking their stores and just saying that is what would have been done with Dick, but it is more about consolidating their opportunities. So Dick might have been written by more of the late 80s Batman writers that redefined the franchise, Dick would have gotten a solo book sooner, would have been the one to get a modern Robin costume, he might have been part of the Young Justice team that they wanted to create and so on. They might have even done a Death in the Family style story with Dick, but this time Robin survives it. JGL's character in The Dark Knight Returns movie by Nolan probably would have just been Dick Grayson instead of "Robin". Things like that where all of the Robin's opportunities are aligned within one single character.

Why would Dick have needed any of that? He got his own costume and solo book as Nightwing and not get relegated to being Batman's Robin all the time.

Unless they kept him in amber or rebooted his age Post-Crisis he was never going to be on the Young Justice team.

They never would have done Death in the Family with Dick. They were trying to make Jason more controversial to build up to giving fans the choice of killing him off, and otherwise the story isn't as memorable.

I don't think having more than one Robin or having just one Robin would have effected how they handled Blake's character because his entire role was to be a Robin that wasn't really a Robin. It wouldn't have mattered who the Robin was because we weren't getting any of them as is from the comics in those movies.

[Jim Kelly]

Many years ago, I read that back in the early 1980s there was a licensing deal that gave one company the rights to Batman and Robin and another company the rights to the Teen Titans. I forget whether this was for merchandising toys, cartoons or something else. The only way to satisfy both companies was to take Robin out of the Teen Titans. There may have been creative reasons why Marv wanted to keep Dick Grayson and why the Batman editors wanted to keep Robin--but the licensing rights is what pushed the issue.

[MyriVerse]

It's only a limit because of the way things have panned out.

Had Dick always been Robin and grew with that ICONIC identity, he'd have been fine. "Robin" is his identity, not an internship to graduate from.

His costume would have been updated over the years, maybe to something even similar to the Nightwing design. He'd be his own man as Robin.

Robin is a sidekick. Period. Forever and always. It has to be graduated from.

[Digifiend]

Many years ago, I read that back in the early 1980s there was a licensing deal that gave one company the rights to Batman and Robin and another company the rights to the Teen Titans. I forget whether this was for merchandising toys, cartoons or something else. The only way to satisfy both companies was to take Robin out of the Teen Titans. There may have been creative reasons why Marv wanted to keep Dick Grayson and why the Batman editors wanted to keep Robin--but the licensing rights is what pushed the issue.

This is true, a promo comic replaced Robin with the Protector because of it.

Protector was actually created to replace Robin in a PSA comic due to licensing conflicts; his debut issue was sponsored by Keebler, but Robin was licensed to Nabisco at the time.

https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Jason_Hart_(New_Earth)
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/New_Teen_...cial_(Keebler)

He's actually canon, he appeared in Heroes in Crisis.

[Badou]

Why would Dick have needed any of that? He got his own costume and solo book as Nightwing and not get relegated to being Batman's Robin all the time.

Unless they kept him in amber or rebooted his age Post-Crisis he was never going to be on the Young Justice team.

They never would have done Death in the Family with Dick. They were trying to make Jason more controversial to build up to giving fans the choice of killing him off, and otherwise the story isn't as memorable.

I don't think having more than one Robin or having just one Robin would have effected how they handled Blake's character because his entire role was to be a Robin that wasn't really a Robin. It wouldn't have mattered who the Robin was because we weren't getting any of them as is from the comics in those movies.

He got his solo book after Tim's own Robin solo book though, so it isn't like he would be stuck just as Batman's partner given the way the Robin identity evolved over time, but the NTT stories post crisis until Dick's return to the Batman office are generally awful. I'd have preferred Dick going back and being Batman's partner over those Titans stories. To me they weren't worth Dick giving up Robin. In the end I look at the Robin identity as a step up from Nightwing. Dick giving it up limits him as a character in the long run because of the ceiling Nightwing as a brand has, imo. It isn't iconic so it will always be behind those larger identities.

Part of the reason they wanted Robin back was to make him younger again, so had Dick returned to the Batman office he would have eventually been part of that Young Justice team. Since the whole idea behind the team was to have the main JL heroes have specific legacy characters together, and with Dick being the only Robin he would have been their only choice. Although I'd have preferred the other outcome as well. Where Dick just keeps the Robin identity in the Titans and the Batman office creates a new legacy identity to be Batman's partner. In that case obviously Dick wouldn't have been part of the YJ book. But either outcome I'd have preferred over Dick creating Nightwing and being stuck in the Titans until it ran into the ground.

It's likely the writers had the idea for a Death in the Family style story still in their head. Obviously it wouldn't have happened the way it did, but a version could have happened. You don't need a character dying to create a memorable story back then. Bane breaking Batman's back is memorable and not long after Batman was running around again. Same thing might have happened for the Joker possibly brutally killing Robin and later revealing he was alive.

Blake as a character existed the way he did because he was the Robin's legacy rolled into one. That Robin legacy doesn't exist if Dick is the only Robin.

[Konja7]

He got his solo book after Tim's own Robin solo book though, so it isn't like he would be stuck just as Batman's partner given the way the Robin identity evolved over time, but the NTT stories post crisis until Dick's return to the Batman office are generally awful. I'd have preferred Dick going back and being Batman's partner over those Titans stories. To me they weren't worth Dick giving up Robin. In the end I look at the Robin identity as a step up from Nightwing. Dick giving it up limits him as a character in the long run because of the ceiling Nightwing as a brand has, imo. It isn't iconic so it will always be behind those larger identities.

Part of the reason they wanted Robin back was to make him younger again, so had Dick returned to the Batman office he would have eventually been part of that Young Justice team. Since the whole idea behind the team was to have the main JL heroes have specific legacy characters together, and with Dick being the only Robin he would have been their only choice. Although I'd have preferred the other outcome as well. Where Dick just keeps the Robin identity in the Titans and the Batman office creates a new legacy identity to be Batman's partner. In that case obviously Dick wouldn't have been part of the YJ book. But either outcome I'd have preferred over Dick creating Nightwing and being stuck in the Titans until it ran into the ground.

It's likely the writers had the idea for a Death in the Family style story still in their head. Obviously it wouldn't have happened the way it did, but a version could have happened. You don't need a character dying to create a memorable story back then. Bane breaking Batman's back is memorable and not long after Batman was running around again. Same thing might have happened for the Joker possibly brutally killing Robin and later revealing he was alive.

Blake as a character existed the way he did because he was the Robin's legacy rolled into one. That Robin legacy doesn't exist if Dick is the only Robin.

It is true that a "version" of the Death of the Family would likely happen even with Dick.

I've read DC wants Batman to be a solitary hero (again) at that time.

So, they will do something to separate Dick from Batman.

[Flash Gordon]

Robin is a sidekick. Period. Forever and always. It has to be graduated from.

Untrue. That's your opinion.

That's what the role has BECOME, but orginally it's just another superhero name. A superhero who is Batman's partner. It evokes Robin Hood, and is meant to be a swashbuckling do-gooder.

[Godlike13]

Ya, the way what if’s work is that Dick could have easily just died for 20 years if he remained Robin. Also you can’t know if Dick would have even been part of that Young Justice team, as first you don’t know if that team would even exist. They could be just as likely to do Teen Titans again then but bring it back to is JL legacy hero routs. What’s more what is even the likely hood we get a new Wonder Girl, Impulse, and Superboy then too. What kind of scenario is this that they are gonna age out every other legacy character but Dick. Maybe Young Justice becomes like the TV show, but we have the TV show so it’s not like Dick is with out Young Justice as it is. Who knows what happens and what doesn’t happen if Dick remains Robin.

[SiegePerilous02]

I don't think having more than one Robin or having just one Robin would have effected how they handled Blake's character because his entire role was to be a Robin that wasn't really a Robin. It wouldn't have mattered who the Robin was because we weren't getting any of them as is from the comics in those movies.

Blake as a character existed the way he did because he was the Robin's legacy rolled into one. That Robin legacy doesn't exist if Dick is the only Robin.

The Blake thing is similar to the Tim and Jason being fused into one character for TNBA. The adaptation is being pragmatic when it only needs one character, so they combine aspects of both.

If Blake had just been named Dick Grayson if he had been the only Robin, there wouldn't be a need to beat around the bush so much with the cutesy "Robin" nod. It would just be Dick as an adult cop who becomes Bruce's ally. It would be a change, but not really a drastic one since he's fulfilling the same basic archetype/function he's always had

Robin is a sidekick. Period. Forever and always. It has to be graduated from.

We only think that because of the precedent established by the transition to Nightwing and introduction of Jason. If that doesn't happen, who knows where we might end up? Dick stays as Robin with an updated costume, leads the Titans (or goes off to do something else), no Jason, no Tim, no Damian. Just him, there's cementing of "only a sidekick."

The Robin identity is distinct, has it's own logo, and originated with him. It's the most valuable identity he has. Nightwing's success is informed entirely by the fact that it's "Robin grown up," Robin doesn't need another identity to justify its existence the way Robin does. Even if he had remained as Batman's partner, being Bruce's #1 relied upon partner, part of the iconic Dynamic Duo, is arguably a better place to be in than a lot of the stuff they've done with Nightwing when he's treated as an also ran.

[WonderNight]

As long as the only thing nightwing means is adult Robin it'll never work (especially when there's already a Robin running around).

Grayson even if you disliked it at least gave dick his own tone, themes and settings that wasn't just a lesser version of Gotham and batman.

Nightwing needs to more then robin in blue.

[AmiMizuno]

Really the only way would really have them make a stronger case of rogues and support casts.

[Frontier]

He got his solo book after Tim's own Robin solo book though, so it isn't like he would be stuck just as Batman's partner given the way the Robin identity evolved over time, but the NTT stories post crisis until Dick's return to the Batman office are generally awful. I'd have preferred Dick going back and being Batman's partner over those Titans stories. To me they weren't worth Dick giving up Robin. In the end I look at the Robin identity as a step up from Nightwing. Dick giving it up limits him as a character in the long run because of the ceiling Nightwing as a brand has, imo. It isn't iconic so it will always be behind those larger identities.

I think being Batman's partner would've limited the kind of stories you could tell with Dick, and I don't think Tim getting a book first had any bearing on Dick getting one. Keeping him as Robin would have led to a lot of the problems that people ascribe to Nightwing and keeping his potential limited to just one, specific, identity.

Part of the reason they wanted Robin back was to make him younger again, so had Dick returned to the Batman office he would have eventually been part of that Young Justice team. Since the whole idea behind the team was to have the main JL heroes have specific legacy characters together, and with Dick being the only Robin he would have been their only choice. Although I'd have preferred the other outcome as well. Where Dick just keeps the Robin identity in the Titans and the Batman office creates a new legacy identity to be Batman's partner. In that case obviously Dick wouldn't have been part of the YJ book. But either outcome I'd have preferred over Dick creating Nightwing and being stuck in the Titans until it ran into the ground.

I don't see how that works because of how much the formation of Young Justice was predicated on Tim's Robin. This is just automatically assuming things at DC would play out the same if Dick had stayed Robin but there was no way an adult man who had led the Titans would end up on a Young Justice team with a teenage Superboy, Impulse, and Wonder Girl. The dynamic wouldn't have worked.

Then you get into the issue of de-aging Dick and taking away his entire character development.

It's likely the writers had the idea for a Death in the Family style story still in their head. Obviously it wouldn't have happened the way it did, but a version could have happened. You don't need a character dying to create a memorable story back then. Bane breaking Batman's back is memorable and not long after Batman was running around again. Same thing might have happened for the Joker possibly brutally killing Robin and later revealing he was alive.

Bane breaking Batman's back is a completely different story than Death in the Family, though, it's not really the same. Death in the Family is only so iconic for the actual death and what followed it. A fake out would've just come off as cheap and discarded pretty quickly in my opinion.

Blake as a character existed the way he did because he was the Robin's legacy rolled into one. That Robin legacy doesn't exist if Dick is the only Robin.

Blake existed because they didn't want to use Robin but wanted to make a nod to Robin. I don't think there being multiple Robins mattered so much as that train of thought.

Untrue. That's your opinion.

That's what the role has BECOME, but orginally it's just another superhero name. A superhero who is Batman's partner. It evokes Robin Hood, and is meant to be a swashbuckling do-gooder.

It's a Superhero name that bred a lot of preconceptions given how it was used and depicted in media.

The Blake thing is similar to the Tim and Jason being fused into one character for TNBA. The adaptation is being pragmatic when it only needs one character, so they combine aspects of both.

If Blake had just been named Dick Grayson if he had been the only Robin, there wouldn't be a need to beat around the bush so much with the cutesy "Robin" nod. It would just be Dick as an adult cop who becomes Bruce's ally. It would be a change, but not really a drastic one since he's fulfilling the same basic archetype/function he's always had

Having it be Dick would've given the game away that the films were including Robin without actually using Robin, because we were never going to get Robin in the Nolan movies. It would've set up too many expectations.

We only think that because of the precedent established by the transition to Nightwing and introduction of Jason. If that doesn't happen, who knows where we might end up? Dick stays as Robin with an updated costume, leads the Titans (or goes off to do something else), no Jason, no Tim, no Damian. Just him, there's cementing of "only a sidekick."

The Robin identity is distinct, has it's own logo, and originated with him. It's the most valuable identity he has. Nightwing's success is informed entirely by the fact that it's "Robin grown up," Robin doesn't need another identity to justify its existence the way Robin does. Even if he had remained as Batman's partner, being Bruce's #1 relied upon partner, part of the iconic Dynamic Duo, is arguably a better place to be in than a lot of the stuff they've done with Nightwing when he's treated as an also ran.

I don't think a grown man in a leadership role continuing to call himself an identity associated with a "Boy Wonder" epithet and continuing to take orders and deferring to his adult mentor would be a great place for his character. Not for the kind of stories people expect from the Robin identity when put together with Batman.

Robin is a major IP and an iconic identity but it's one that is most well known for playing second to Batman in some form or another.

[SiegePerilous02]

I don't think there would be a need for Young Justice if they never changed Dick out of the Robin identity and try to age up the Titan generation. They might very well remain the only sidekick generation.

Having it be Dick would've given the game away that the films were including Robin without actually using Robin, because we were never going to get Robin in the Nolan movies. It would've set up too many expectations.

Would it set up that many expectations for the general audience? They'd roll with it no matter what just like they did with Blake.
The comic fans who would complain about the expectations not being met already did it with the composite "Robin" reveal anyway. Now there would just not be a reason to create a new character that is a composite of all of them.

I don't think a grown man in a leadership role continuing to call himself an identity associated with a "Boy Wonder" epithet and continuing to take orders and deferring to his adult mentor would be a great place for his character. Not for the kind of stories people expect from the Robin identity when put together with Batman.

But this wasn't actually established as being a thing in the comic. Right from the beginning of NTT, Dick as Robin was rebelling against Batman and the rest of the Justice League. He rebelled against him and took over leading the combined NTT and Outsiders. Robin was the leader of the Titans, he still is the iconic leader of the Titans (see the cartoon). The transition to Nightwing seems unnecessary for the narrative, it's more of outside licensing reasons.

Robin is a major IP and an iconic identity but it's one that is most well known for playing second to Batman in some form or another.

But Nightwing is less of an IP or iconic identity, and he's playing second fiddle (or third behind whoever is wearing his old costume) to Batman anyway. So what is the difference?

[Godlike13]

But Nightwing is less of an IP or iconic identity, and he's playing second fiddle (or third behind whoever is wearing his old costume) to Batman anyway. So what is the difference?

Pretty much every DC character is playing 2nd fiddle to Batman, and the only Robin he plays 3rd fiddle to is himself really. Nightwing is less iconic but at the same time it expands the character’s potential market demo and overall mythos.