why was Dick graduated from Robin to Nightwing?

[Badou]

The Blake thing is similar to the Tim and Jason being fused into one character for TNBA. The adaptation is being pragmatic when it only needs one character, so they combine aspects of both.

If Blake had just been named Dick Grayson if he had been the only Robin, there wouldn't be a need to beat around the bush so much with the cutesy "Robin" nod. It would just be Dick as an adult cop who becomes Bruce's ally. It would be a change, but not really a drastic one since he's fulfilling the same basic archetype/function he's always had

Summed it up well. There is really no need to use the "Robin" nod because the identity isn't diffused between multiple characters. There would be no precedent for it. There would be no Robin legacy where "Robin" is looked at as a position rather than an individual character.

Also you have the Teen Titans cartoon too that is a combination between Dick and Tim. That Robin has Dick's history, but is designed and molded after Tim in the sense that he is the 3rd Robin of that universe I believe along with using Tim's design.

I think being Batman's partner would've limited the kind of stories you could tell with Dick, and I don't think Tim getting a book first had any bearing on Dick getting one. Keeping him as Robin would have led to a lot of the problems that people ascribe to Nightwing and keeping his potential limited to just one, specific, identity.

Limit him how? We know the stories that were told with Dick in that time period between crisis and the Batman office using him more again. They were not very good. The most memorable stories with Dick over that era were ones that tied him back to the Batman franchise anyway. Having Dick be stuck in that Titans book that would collapse over the next decade with a less iconic identity did not help the character in the long run. Then you have the Batman writers over that same time period redefined the Batman franchise and turned it from one that was selling half of what the NTT book was to becoming DC's flagship franchise far outpacing the Titans. Dick missing out on that era hurt the character in the long run. Those Titans stories as I’ve said before are completely irrelevant now, so it just wasn’t worth it, imo.

I don't see how that works because of how much the formation of Young Justice was predicated on Tim's Robin. This is just automatically assuming things at DC would play out the same if Dick had stayed Robin but there was no way an adult man who had led the Titans would end up on a Young Justice team with a teenage Superboy, Impulse, and Wonder Girl. The dynamic wouldn't have worked.

Then you get into the issue of de-aging Dick and taking away his entire character development.

You are looking at the stories as they happened and trying to figure out how Dick as he was back then would fit into them, which doesn't make sense. It's more about how everything around these sorties and books would have changed if there was no Robin legacy and it was just Dick Grayson. The YJ book happened because DC probably wanted a new young hero team with how much of a mess the Titans became and with them getting too old. Plus the success Marvel was having with their young characters might have factored into it too. So a YJ book would have still happened probably, but it would have been different to what we got. Maybe it would be more of a young adult book if Dick wasn’t deaged, or if he was deaged, which is something that has happened to the character multiple times over his history anyway, then it might have been about proper teenagers like Tim’s book. But then that only lasted a handful of years before they moved Tim's YJ team over to the Titans anyway with adult characters.

Bane breaking Batman's back is a completely different story than Death in the Family, though, it's not really the same. Death in the Family is only so iconic for the actual death and what followed it. A fake out would've just come off as cheap and discarded pretty quickly in my opinion.

I’m not saying it would have been as iconic, but a version of it probably would have still happened. Writers have these story ideas in their heads for a long time usually and they go through constant changes based on what they can or can’t do. Maybe Dick would have even died and not return for years. Who knows, but the point is that Dick would have been more involved in that era of Batman stories that basically serve as the foundation for most modern Batman stories now.

Like maybe even a Knighfall story plays out differently where if Dick isn’t stuck in the Titans he takes on the Batman mantle sooner and defeats Bane instead of Azrael. Where that landmark Batman #500 issue is Dick wearing the Batman costume facing off against Bane and it becomes a seminal moment in Dick’s long history. I’m obviously looking at it from an optimistic pov, but who knows what would have changed in the end. I do know what we ended up with, and while it isn’t the worst outcome since Nightwing is successful enough to not be a failure obviously, but I don’t Dick’s character ended up with the best outcome after giving up the Robin identity.

Blake existed because they didn't want to use Robin but wanted to make a nod to Robin. I don't think there being multiple Robins mattered so much as that train of thought.

Robin is a legacy identity and a position multiple characters have held. So Nolan having this “Robin” character was a nod to the Robin legacy and position rather than the individual character, but if Dick is the only Robin and there is no Robin legacy then this likely wouldn’t have been something that occurred to him to do. It would have just been Dick Grayson because that is who would be associated with Robin. Just like Bruce Wayne is associated with Batman.

I don't think a grown man in a leadership role continuing to call himself an identity associated with a "Boy Wonder" epithet and continuing to take orders and deferring to his adult mentor would be a great place for his character. Not for the kind of stories people expect from the Robin identity when put together with Batman.

Robin is a major IP and an iconic identity but it's one that is most well known for playing second to Batman in some form or another.

The Boy Wonder title kind of died off a long time ago by the 80s. I think they stopped using it in 60s or earlier? I mean as someone mentioned Dick did already grow into an adult as Robin and continued to use the identity and work with Batman and even the JSA. So it isn't this outlandish idea when it had already been done before. What Dick was back then as an adult Robin is basically what Nightwing is now, but just with a lesser identity in Nightwing as opposed to Robin.

I mean Nightwing already plays second to Batman. Look at any larger Nightwing story in the past decade. It’s all Batman telling Nightwing what to do and then Nightwing doing it, or Nightwing getting used as bait to prop up Batman’s own story by either getting captured or injured. To me it feels like he has even less freedom than Robin given Robin is the character more associated with the Titans over Nightwing in DC’s eyes.

Pretty much every DC character is playing 2nd fiddle to Batman, and the only Robin he plays 3rd fiddle to is himself really. Nightwing is less iconic but at the same time it expands the character’s potential market demo and overall mythos.

But for Nightwing to function it had to be positioned behind both Batman and Robin. It has more obstacles in its path for relevancy which will always limit it. Actually it has 3 things it needs. You have to have Batman, Robin, and also the Titans. Nightwing has done well given all the things working against it, but it isn’t in a great position to be marketed to the masses because of all this, imo.

[Konja7]

I don't think a grown man in a leadership role continuing to call himself an identity associated with a "Boy Wonder" epithet and continuing to take orders and deferring to his adult mentor would be a great place for his character. Not for the kind of stories people expect from the Robin identity when put together with Batman.

Robin is a major IP and an iconic identity but it's one that is most well known for playing second to Batman in some form or another.

Dick as Robin was an independent hero (at the same level that the current Nightwing) and a grown man for years. The idea that Dick needs to left Robin to be a really independent hero comes after the identity change.

That said, this idea was not exactly wrong either, since Nightwing was created to make Dick a totally independent hero (cutting his ties to Batman).

However, after the Titans lost popularity, Nightwing return to Batman editorial. So current Nightwing is less independent than he was in his last years as Robin.

[Konja7]

Summed it up well. There is really no need to use the "Robin" nod because the identity isn't diffused between multiple characters. There would be no precedent for it. There would be no Robin legacy where "Robin" is looked at as a position rather than an individual character.

Also you have the Teen Titans cartoon too that is a combination between Dick and Tim. That Robin has Dick's history, but is designed and molded after Tim in the sense that he is the 3rd Robin of that universe I believe along with using Tim's design.

Teen Titans cartoon never implied he was the third Robin. We also never learn about his backstory (although a comic based on the cartoon shows he has Dick's backstory).

Teen Titans cartoon shows he will be Nightwing in the future and he has romantic feelings for Starfire. So, the hints point toward Dick.

Limit him how? We know the stories that were told with Dick in that time period between crisis and the Batman office using him more again. They were not very good. The most memorable stories with Dick over that era were ones that tied him back to the Batman franchise anyway. Having Dick be stuck in that Titans book that would collapse over the next decade with a less iconic identity did not help the character in the long run. Then you have the Batman writers over that same time period redefined the Batman franchise and turned it from one that was selling half of what the NTT book was to becoming DC's flagship franchise far outpacing the Titans. Dick missing out on that era hurt the character in the long run. Those Titans stories as I’ve said before are completely irrelevant now, so it just wasn’t worth it, imo.

I know NTT was a big success in sales and it sales weres bigger than Batman, but it really sells the double of Batman?

[SiegePerilous02]

Pretty much every DC character is playing 2nd fiddle to Batman, and the only Robin he plays 3rd fiddle to is himself really. Nightwing is less iconic but at the same time it expands the character’s potential market demo and overall mythos.

That's arguable. Tim got much more focus in stuff like Knightfall because he was Robin at the time, Damian is getting a lot of the other media push as Robin now, most of Dick's major other media appearances before TITANS was as Robin with smaller appearances by Nightwing (Even YJ and Titans had to start him as Robin), etc.

He doesn't really have a mythos surrounding Nightwing. His major ties are with Batman and the Titans, he's never not going to be intrinsically tied to them (especially the former), and Robin is a far bigger deal for both of those anyway. There is no functional difference between Nightwing and an adult Robin, it's just if he kept the identity it would be 100% his instead of disbursed among different characters. And it would be the identity created with him and for him, not something he got from Superman. And since the Superman connection has been downplayed as well, it's a rather generic name that doesn't really mean anything. Robin is at least a better name that evokes Robin Hood.

[Digifiend]

Though saying that, the golden age sidekick codenames have always been weird. Robin Hood is an archer, so the name Robin, would've made sense as the sidekick of Green Arrow. Of course, Robin debuted before GA, so instead, his sidekick is called Speedy, which, as pointed out in the Young Justice cartoon doesn't make sense - it sounds like a speedster. Jay Garrick, of course, didn't have a sidekick at all. Even the live action Arrow TV series had to explain Speedy as simply being Thea's childhood nickname, with Roy Harper using his current Arsenal codename instead.

[Frontier]

I don't think there would be a need for Young Justice if they never changed Dick out of the Robin identity and try to age up the Titan generation. They might very well remain the only sidekick generation.

I doubt it unless we locked every character on that team in amber and assume that writers wouldn't have come up with Superboy, Impulse, and Cassie as Wonder Girl like they ended up doing.

And that all the changes to the Titans comics didn't still occur (which Dick's costumed identity isn't quite relevant too).

It is kind of funny imagining Wally as The Flash with Dick still dressing like Robin the Boy Wonder, unless we're acting under the assumption that Dick not becoming Robin kills any and all potential legacy heroes at DC.

Would it set up that many expectations for the general audience? They'd roll with it no matter what just like they did with Blake.
The comic fans who would complain about the expectations not being met already did it with the composite "Robin" reveal anyway. Now there would just not be a reason to create a new character that is a composite of all of them.

Considering they did not want the character to look like an outright Robin and didn't even reveal it at the end, I think they were trying to divert, subvert, and acknowledge expectations without being outright about it.

But this wasn't actually established as being a thing in the comic. Right from the beginning of NTT, Dick as Robin was rebelling against Batman and the rest of the Justice League. He rebelled against him and took over leading the combined NTT and Outsiders. Robin was the leader of the Titans, he still is the iconic leader of the Titans (see the cartoon). The transition to Nightwing seems unnecessary for the narrative, it's more of outside licensing reasons.

Honestly you could look at all of that as ultimately building up to the transition to Nightwing from a story perspective (and even the cartoon showed Nightwing as an older version of Dick).

But Nightwing is less of an IP or iconic identity, and he's playing second fiddle (or third behind whoever is wearing his old costume) to Batman anyway. So what is the difference?

When has he ever been third to a Robin? Honestly? I don't think he was ever viewed as less important than Tim or Damian. He has much more narrative weight in stories as Nightwing than he probably would have had as Robin because said weight is predicated on his history as Robin and that he moved on from it, even if he's still not overtaking Batman as the franchise lead.

Summed it up well. There is really no need to use the "Robin" nod because the identity isn't diffused between multiple characters. There would be no precedent for it. There would be no Robin legacy where "Robin" is looked at as a position rather than an individual character.

Also you have the Teen Titans cartoon too that is a combination between Dick and Tim. That Robin has Dick's history, but is designed and molded after Tim in the sense that he is the 3rd Robin of that universe I believe along with using Tim's design.

But when the movies were trying to use Robin without using Robin, I don't think their approach would have been very different even if there weren't multiple RObins.

They used design elements from Tim, and his bo-staff, but he was pretty clearly Dick in every way that mattered. And Tim is always used as a design farm for the other Robins.

Limit him how? We know the stories that were told with Dick in that time period between crisis and the Batman office using him more again. They were not very good. The most memorable stories with Dick over that era were ones that tied him back to the Batman franchise anyway. Having Dick be stuck in that Titans book that would collapse over the next decade with a less iconic identity did not help the character in the long run. Then you have the Batman writers over that same time period redefined the Batman franchise and turned it from one that was selling half of what the NTT book was to becoming DC's flagship franchise far outpacing the Titans. Dick missing out on that era hurt the character in the long run. Those Titans stories as I’ve said before are completely irrelevant now, so it just wasn’t worth it, imo.

Limit him in terms of his role in the franchise and what he can do. If he had been in those stories, he would've already been Nightwing and would we'd probably see the same kind of content for his character that we saw in the 90's in terms of defining his dynamic within the Batfamily as Nightwing.

You are looking at the stories as they happened and trying to figure out how Dick as he was back then would fit into them, which doesn't make sense. It's more about how everything around these sorties and books would have changed if there was no Robin legacy and it was just Dick Grayson. The YJ book happened because DC probably wanted a new young hero team with how much of a mess the Titans became and with them getting too old. Plus the success Marvel was having with their young characters might have factored into it too. So a YJ book would have still happened probably, but it would have been different to what we got. Maybe it would be more of a young adult book if Dick wasn’t deaged, or if he was deaged, which is something that has happened to the character multiple times over his history anyway, then it might have been about proper teenagers like Tim’s book. But then that only lasted a handful of years before they moved Tim's YJ team over to the Titans anyway with adult characters.

I think you're the one who is taking Dick and trying to force him into stories that were not designed to have him in it just because you want Dick to be the only Robin. I don't think having Dick as the only Robin is more worthwhile compared to how history and the DCU developed otherwise, because as much as I love Dick I love what we got just as much and I don't see the need to change it just to accommodate Dick from a notion that he was better off as Robin without the other Robins even existing.

A YJ with Dick would be a very different YJ. No one can say whether it would've been better or worse but for fans of the original it would likely not have been what they would have wanted.

]I’m not saying it would have been as iconic, but a version of it probably would have still happened. Writers have these story ideas in their heads for a long time usually and they go through constant changes based on what they can or can’t do. Maybe Dick would have even died and not return for years. Who knows, but the point is that Dick would have been more involved in that era of Batman stories that basically serve as the foundation for most modern Batman stories now.

If Dick died, wanna bet we would've gotten a new Robin then?

I think without direct involvement he was involved in that his absence was because he was Nightwing, not Robin, and had moved on from teaming with Bruce on a daily basis which most modern adaptions run with.

Like maybe even a Knighfall story plays out differently where if Dick isn’t stuck in the Titans he takes on the Batman mantle sooner and defeats Bane instead of Azrael. Where that landmark Batman #500 issue is Dick wearing the Batman costume facing off against Bane and it becomes a seminal moment in Dick’s long history. I’m obviously looking at it from an optimistic pov, but who knows what would have changed in the end. I do know what we ended up with, and while it isn’t the worst outcome since Nightwing is successful enough to not be a failure obviously, but I don’t Dick’s character ended up with the best outcome after giving up the Robin identity.

But then that completely upends and changes the story of Knightfall. Obviously good from a character perspective for Dick but from a story perspective that's not what the story was designed to be or was going for. Heck, it led to a brief period of Dick as Batman anyways.

The Boy Wonder title kind of died off a long time ago by the 80s. I think they stopped using it in 60s or earlier? I mean as someone mentioned Dick did already grow into an adult as Robin and continued to use the identity and work with Batman and even the JSA. So it isn't this outlandish idea when it had already been done before. What Dick was back then as an adult Robin is basically what Nightwing is now, but just with a lesser identity in Nightwing as opposed to Robin.

It's still an epithet closely associated with the identity, and the way Dick worked with Batman as an adult Robin was different from before to the point where he was moving on from the expectations of the Robin identity.

I mean Nightwing already plays second to Batman. Look at any larger Nightwing story in the past decade. It’s all Batman telling Nightwing what to do and then Nightwing doing it, or Nightwing getting used as bait to prop up Batman’s own story by either getting captured or injured. To me it feels like he has even less freedom than Robin given Robin is the character more associated with the Titans over Nightwing in DC’s eyes.

We can argue about how the Batfamily gets treated in these stories for several pages, but I feel like the dynamic with Nightwing is still different than what it would be if her were still Robin and Robin is only associated with the Titans in a broader sense because of the youthful nature of the team.

[Pohzee]

Same discussion as usual, but this time I'm going to fall on the other side. I loved grown Robin the Teen Wonder. That's some of my favorite stuff for the character, and I think that Dick taking Robin to adulthood would be equally compelling. But based on the interviews he it seems clear that they never would have let that happen. And while I love Dick as Robin and how strong that iconography is, the thing that I connect with most about him is his growth into adulthood. And I wouldn't trade that away for any amount of extra presence. I do somewhat resent the destruction of the Robin mantle, but I think that the conga line of Robins is somewhat independent from Dick becoming Nightwing

[SiegePerilous02]

It is kind of funny imagining Wally as The Flash with Dick still dressing like Robin the Boy Wonder, unless we're acting under the assumption that Dick not becoming Robin kills any and all potential legacy heroes at DC.

Honestly, since Robin is a much bigger deal than any other sidekick legacy, Dick never abandoning the identity very well might have killed the sidekick legacy stuff.

It's all based on "follow the leader" mentality anyway. The only reason we got the likes of Kid Flash, Speedy, Aqualad etc. is because of the popularity of Robin. And the only reason we got Troia, Tempest and Arsenal is because we got Nightwing first.

If Wally is the Flash, an adult Robin wouldn't be a "Boy Wonder." And you're assuming they'd keep him in the short shorts and the pixie boots. Give Robin some pants and modernized costume, and it's not difficult at all to think of him as an adult hero. Plus it would still be his own identity that nobody could take away, and we've seen how fast Wally's situation collapsed once Barry came back.

Considering they did not want the character to look like an outright Robin and didn't even reveal it at the end, I think they were trying to divert, subvert, and acknowledge expectations without being outright about it.

Yes, we know what the thought processes are with the movie as it is. But again, you're only coming at this from the perspective of a modern fan who has lived through several Robins. Had the Robin legacy never happened, they likely would not have had the need to do it this way. It doesn't impact the film that much if it is straight up Dick Grayson, and even then Robin's real name is not as well known as Bruce's. You could have the Dick Grayson "Robin was his middle name or nickname" reveal at the end and it still would have worked.

Honestly you could look at all of that as ultimately building up to the transition to Nightwing from a story perspective (and even the cartoon showed Nightwing as an older version of Dick).

It works that way in hindsight, but we know plotting the Nightwing identity wasn't being considered that early on in the early issues.

The cartoon acknowledged it in like one episode. Nightwing showed up at the tail end of the iconic NTT era (when Perez was artist) but was otherwise present for a lot of inconsequential stuff afterward. The cartoon only acknowledged it one episode. Dick-as-Robin is the face of the biggest Titans stuff. It's like he was done as a character as soon as he became Nightwing.

When has he ever been third to a Robin? Honestly? I don't think he was ever viewed as less important than Tim or Damian. He has much more narrative weight in stories as Nightwing than he probably would have had as Robin because said weight is predicated on his history as Robin and that he moved on from it, even if he's still not overtaking Batman as the franchise lead.

Tim was the first to get an ongoing in the 90s, the success of that is what lead to stuff like Nightwing and Batgirl. He seems to be a Butt-Monkey in the DC DTVs and Damian as Robin is shoehorned into the Teen Titans movies because he's the current Robin. I don't know if he's ever firmly third, but it always seems to be his legacy as the first Robin has him grandfathered in rather than anything he's bringing to the table as Nightwing.

He moved onto it, to still be Bruce's on and off bitch.

Same discussion as usual, but this time I'm going to fall on the other side. I loved grown Robin the Teen Wonder. That's some of my favorite stuff for the character, and I think that Dick taking Robin to adulthood would be equally compelling. But based on the interviews he it seems clear that they never would have let that happen. And while I love Dick as Robin and how strong that iconography is, the thing that I connect with most about him is his growth into adulthood. And I wouldn't trade that away for any amount of extra presence. I do somewhat resent the destruction of the Robin mantle, but I think that the conga line of Robins is somewhat independent from Dick becoming Nightwing

Yes, it's too little too late now. But I agree that the initial arc of Dick becoming Nightwing is a good one.
Like I said though, Wolfman running out of gas right around that time and Perez leaving meant Dick was effectively done as a character. He hit his ceiling at the time, so it's not like we got a lot of great iconic stuff with Nightwing there. BUT, Dick becoming Nightwing with no other Robins coming after him would probably help. Either that or being an adult Robin. But becoming Nightwing plus a deluge of other Robins is not so great for him.

[WonderNight]

So Dick Grayson is the Gohan of DC. All the potential in the world but peaked as a child. As an adult he's just a background character with no role to feel. Yep that's nightwing.

[Godlike13]

That's arguable. Tim got much more focus in stuff like Knightfall because he was Robin at the time, Damian is getting a lot of the other media push as Robin now, most of Dick's major other media appearances before TITANS was as Robin with smaller appearances by Nightwing (Even YJ and Titans had to start him as Robin), etc.

He doesn't really have a mythos surrounding Nightwing. His major ties are with Batman and the Titans, he's never not going to be intrinsically tied to them (especially the former), and Robin is a far bigger deal for both of those anyway. There is no functional difference between Nightwing and an adult Robin, it's just if he kept the identity it would be 100% his instead of disbursed among different characters. And it would be the identity created with him and for him, not something he got from Superman. And since the Superman connection has been downplayed as well, it's a rather generic name that doesn't really mean anything. Robin is at least a better name that evokes Robin Hood.

Tim got more focus in Knightfall because they were building towards Prodigal with Dick, and Damian’s other media push is still no where near what Dick has going on in other media, even as Nightwing. Other then himself as Robin Dick as Nightwing still has more going one then any of the other Robins.

Robin mythos is Nightwing mythos, and vice versa. He is always going to have ties with Batman and Titans no matter what they call him. The functional difference is they don’t want an adult Robin, as Robin is primarily marketed to attract children. Nightwing affords them the opportunity to market Dick as an adult, and beyond that demo, with out compromising Robin’s primary function.

[Jman27]

So Dick Grayson is the Gohan of DC. All the potential in the world but peaked as a child. As an adult he's just a background character with no role to feel. Yep that's nightwing.

He peak in the Buu saga but I got over that cause he never liked fighting originally like his father its not his purpose but he stills contributes. As for Nightwing I dont know what his purpose is

[Frontier]

Dick as Robin was an independent hero (at the same level that the current Nightwing) and a grown man for years. The idea that Dick needs to left Robin to be a really independent hero comes after the identity change.

That said, this idea was not exactly wrong either, since Nightwing was created to make Dick a totally independent hero (cutting his ties to Batman).

However, after the Titans lost popularity, Nightwing return to Batman editorial. So current Nightwing is less independent than he was in his last years as Robin.

You could say that those stories as adult Robin becoming more and more independent was part of the transition in terms of Dick becoming something that wasn't Robin any more.

Honestly, since Robin is a much bigger deal than any other sidekick legacy, Dick never abandoning the identity very well might have killed the sidekick legacy stuff.

It's all based on "follow the leader" mentality anyway. The only reason we got the likes of Kid Flash, Speedy, Aqualad etc. is because of the popularity of Robin. And the only reason we got Troia, Tempest and Arsenal is because we got Nightwing first.

If Wally is the Flash, an adult Robin wouldn't be a "Boy Wonder." And you're assuming they'd keep him in the short shorts and the pixie boots. Give Robin some pants and modernized costume, and it's not difficult at all to think of him as an adult hero. Plus it would still be his own identity that nobody could take away, and we've seen how fast Wally's situation collapsed once Barry came back.

I don't see the loss of legacy as an immediate +1 for Dick staying Robin, but that's just me.

There's a huge difference in terms of iconography between The Flash, a solo hero and part of the Big Seven, and an identity like Robin which is so associated with Batman. They can give him pants and ditch the pixie boots, but if he still looks like Robin he'll probably still be expected to be a Robin. Nightwing comes off as more of a fully-fledged adult hero than an adult Robin does in my opinion.

Yes, we know what the thought processes are with the movie as it is. But again, you're only coming at this from the perspective of a modern fan who has lived through several Robins. Had the Robin legacy never happened, they likely would not have had the need to do it this way. It doesn't impact the film that much if it is straight up Dick Grayson, and even then Robin's real name is not as well known as Bruce's. You could have the Dick Grayson "Robin was his middle name or nickname" reveal at the end and it still would have worked.

I'm trying to come at it from the perspective of the filmmakers. I don't think they would've banked on a general audience not knowing Dick's name considering it would've been so easy to spoil it from just using his real name.

It works that way in hindsight, but we know plotting the Nightwing identity wasn't being considered that early on in the early issues.

The cartoon acknowledged it in like one episode. Nightwing showed up at the tail end of the iconic NTT era (when Perez was artist) but was otherwise present for a lot of inconsequential stuff afterward. The cartoon only acknowledged it one episode. Dick-as-Robin is the face of the biggest Titans stuff. It's like he was done as a character as soon as he became Nightwing.

I don't see the fault in hindsight in this instance.

It was acknowledged as a form of an adult version of Dick in it and many other cartoons. Dick as a younger hero is the face of the Titans franchise because when it usually leans more into youth but that can only take him so far in the comics.

Tim was the first to get an ongoing in the 90s, the success of that is what lead to stuff like Nightwing and Batgirl. He seems to be a Butt-Monkey in the DC DTVs and Damian as Robin is shoehorned into the Teen Titans movies because he's the current Robin. I don't know if he's ever firmly third, but it always seems to be his legacy as the first Robin has him grandfathered in rather than anything he's bringing to the table as Nightwing.

He moved onto it, to still be Bruce's on and off bitch.

I think people oversell his butt-monkey status in movies and that there was actual good content for him in there that made good use of his experience and standing with Batman, and in the Titans films what he's capable of away from Batman.

Yes, it's too little too late now. But I agree that the initial arc of Dick becoming Nightwing is a good one.
Like I said though, Wolfman running out of gas right around that time and Perez leaving meant Dick was effectively done as a character. He hit his ceiling at the time, so it's not like we got a lot of great iconic stuff with Nightwing there. BUT, Dick becoming Nightwing with no other Robins coming after him would probably help. Either that or being an adult Robin. But becoming Nightwing plus a deluge of other Robins is not so great for him.

I feel like people are acting like there were 10 other Robins main Robins after Dick. We just had Jason, Tim for a long while, then Steph for five seconds, and now Damian.

It really doesn't seem like that much in the grand scheme of things.

[Starrius]

You could say that those stories as adult Robin becoming more and more independent was part of the transition in terms of Dick becoming something that wasn't Robin any more.

I don't see the loss of legacy as an immediate +1 for Dick staying Robin, but that's just me.

There's a huge difference in terms of iconography between The Flash, a solo hero and part of the Big Seven, and an identity like Robin which is so associated with Batman. They can give him pants and ditch the pixie boots, but if he still looks like Robin he'll probably still be expected to be a Robin. Nightwing comes off as more of a fully-fledged adult hero than an adult Robin does in my opinion.

I'm trying to come at it from the perspective of the filmmakers. I don't think they would've banked on a general audience not knowing Dick's name considering it would've been so easy to spoil it from just using his real name.

I don't see the fault in hindsight in this instance.

It was acknowledged as a form of an adult version of Dick in it and many other cartoons. Dick as a younger hero is the face of the Titans franchise because when it usually leans more into youth but that can only take him so far in the comics.

I think people oversell his butt-monkey status in movies and that there was actual good content for him in there that made good use of his experience and standing with Batman, and in the Titans films what he's capable of away from Batman.

I feel like people are acting like there were 10 other Robins main Robins after Dick. We just had Jason, Tim for a long while, then Steph for five seconds, and now Damian.

It really doesn't seem like that much in the grand scheme of things.

Carrie was Robin in The Dark Knight Returns graphic novel


I really enjoyed Dick/Kory in the Wolfman run comics

[9th.]

You could say that those stories as adult Robin becoming more and more independent was part of the transition in terms of Dick becoming something that wasn't Robin any more.

I don't see the loss of legacy as an immediate +1 for Dick staying Robin, but that's just me.

There's a huge difference in terms of iconography between The Flash, a solo hero and part of the Big Seven, and an identity like Robin which is so associated with Batman. They can give him pants and ditch the pixie boots, but if he still looks like Robin he'll probably still be expected to be a Robin. Nightwing comes off as more of a fully-fledged adult hero than an adult Robin does in my opinion.

I'm trying to come at it from the perspective of the filmmakers. I don't think they would've banked on a general audience not knowing Dick's name considering it would've been so easy to spoil it from just using his real name.

I don't see the fault in hindsight in this instance.

It was acknowledged as a form of an adult version of Dick in it and many other cartoons. Dick as a younger hero is the face of the Titans franchise because when it usually leans more into youth but that can only take him so far in the comics.

I think people oversell his butt-monkey status in movies and that there was actual good content for him in there that made good use of his experience and standing with Batman, and in the Titans films what he's capable of away from Batman.

I feel like people are acting like there were 10 other Robins main Robins after Dick. We just had Jason, Tim for a long while, then Steph for five seconds, and now Damian.

It really doesn't seem like that much in the grand scheme of things.

It's not THAT many, I mean not really. Batman is a never-ending story so it's bound to happen. In 30-50 years he'll probably have another.

[SiegePerilous02]

Tim got more focus in Knightfall because they were building towards Prodigal with Dick, and Damian’s other media push is still no where near what Dick has going on in other media, even as Nightwing. Other then himself as Robin Dick as Nightwing still has more going one then any of the other Robins.

Robin mythos is Nightwing mythos, and vice versa. He is always going to have ties with Batman and Titans no matter what they call him. The functional difference is they don’t want an adult Robin, as Robin is primarily marketed to attract children. Nightwing affords them the opportunity to market Dick as an adult, and beyond that demo, with out compromising Robin’s primary function.

Didn't they only do Prodigal because fans complained Dick didn't take over for Bruce in Knightfall?

I don't see the loss of legacy as an immediate +1 for Dick staying Robin, but that's just me.

Sounds pretty great to me But then i don't care for the other Robins (barring Damian sometimes) or legacy that much in general.

There's a huge difference in terms of iconography between The Flash, a solo hero and part of the Big Seven, and an identity like Robin which is so associated with Batman. They can give him pants and ditch the pixie boots, but if he still looks like Robin he'll probably still be expected to be a Robin. Nightwing comes off as more of a fully-fledged adult hero than an adult Robin does in my opinion.

Maybe Nightwing comes across as a full fledged hero than an adult Robin in theory, but not always in practice. He's basically still just one of Batman's foot soldiers and has never really sustained a mythos on his own.

I'm trying to come at it from the perspective of the filmmakers. I don't think they would've banked on a general audience not knowing Dick's name considering it would've been so easy to spoil it from just using his real name.

So they ditch the pretense of trying to hide it in this instance?
Does it alter the film that much?

I feel like people are acting like there were 10 other Robins main Robins after Dick. We just had Jason, Tim for a long while, then Steph for five seconds, and now Damian.

It really doesn't seem like that much in the grand scheme of things.

Some of us think even one Robin after him is pretty pointless.
We're not acting like there are 10, we don't need to. Especially since the whole reason behind it isn't narrative first, it's because they can't have Batman without a Robin for branding reasons.