Who do you want Kindred to be?

[Dzika_Sowa]

After Amazing Spider-Man #49/850, I am FULLY on the Pre-OMD Peter train.

spoilers:

Throughout this run, Nick Spencer has focused on this theme of redemption and restoration. He's restored and/or redeemed characters like Boomerang, Gog, Kraven (back to the grave), Norman Osborn (back to his original characterization), and the Peter/MJ relationship. But there is one element of Spencer's run that remains untouched: yes, I'm talking about "One More Day." Thus far, the only clue we've gotten to OMD being retconned have been in issue #29 (where Peter is given the ring by his Aunt May) and in #44 where he mentioned that he needed to talk to her about something (i.e. the ring). Now, simply undoing OMD would not be satisfying, because it was such a harrowing moment and story for Spider-Fans. So what does Spencer do? He starts with juxtaposing the character of Spider-Man and Peter Parker, explaining that the two are not just one and the same. In other words, Spider-Man without the humanity of Peter Parker is reckless, brash, and arrogant. It's Peter Parker if he gives into his darkest impulses. Remember, Kraven tried to do the same when he used his hunt to manipulate Peter into killing him, something Peter refused to do. But in #49/850...that changes. Peter, having been broken down by the combined threat of Sin-Eater and Kindred, has just killed Norman Osborn. He's done it; he's crossed that line. And he "made a different choice"...the choice that leads him on the path to becoming Kindred.

end of spoilers

So, basically, Kindred is trying to tell Peter, that "it takes just one bad day for you, to turn out like me". At least that's how I understand it.

I think You are right with that theory. Spencer even addressed spoilers:

Sins Past in #49/#850, with Green Goblin picking up on Spider-Gwen.

end of spoilers. OMD? Not really. He even took an obscure line from resurrected Mysterio, from several years ago and integrated it into his run, to make an illusion, as if Kindred acted behind the scenes for a long time. There's no way Spencer is ignoring OMD.

There's also that Kingpin connection. I can't think of any reason why Kingpin would know Harry or Gwen, but he has history with pre-OMD Peter. Wasn't Spider-Man present, when Vanessa died, or something like that?

[NC_Yankee]

So, basically, Kindred is trying to tell Peter, that "it takes just one bad day for you, to turn out like me". At least that's how I understand it.

I think You are right with that theory. Spencer even addressed spoilers:

Sins Past in #49/#850, with Green Goblin picking up on Spider-Gwen.

end of spoilers. OMD? Not really. He even took an obscure line from resurrected Mysterio, from several years ago and integrated it into his run, to make an illusion, as if Kindred acted behind the scenes for a long time. There's no way Spencer is ignoring OMD.

There's also that Kingpin connection. I can't think of any reason why Kingpin would know Harry or Gwen, but he has history with pre-OMD Peter. Wasn't Spider-Man present, when Vanessa died, or something like that?

You forget Fisk was in the recent Gwen comic ( as was Norman by the way). Based on what we saw with Norman bringing up Sins Past, Gabriel is an option and Gwen is the favorite. I said this before and I will say it again: Why else would Spencer reference one of the most despised Spider-Man stories ever unless it is connected to this story? I will also site the cover of ASM 55. It is perhaps the darkest cover ( content not color) ever in the history of Amazing. It makes me think that Gwen is Kindred and Peter, Norman or Ghost Spider will end up killing her. I will also note this: Pre OMD Peter is meh like Harry and Gabriel. I am happy to see Norman back as the douche we all cannot stand, but to really make the kind of impression that Conway did after 121 he needs to follow it up like Conway did in 122. That means no comedown in the next issue, and that means Gwen

[Dzika_Sowa]

You forget Fisk was in the recent Gwen comic ( as was Norman by the way). Based on what we saw with Norman bringing up Sins Past, Gabriel is an option and Gwen is the favorite. I said this before and I will say it again: Why else would Spencer reference one of the most despised Spider-Man stories ever unless it is connected to this story? I will also site the cover of ASM 55. It is perhaps the darkest cover ( content not color) ever in the history of Amazing. It makes me think that Gwen is Kindred and Peter, Norman or Ghost Spider will end up killing her. I will also note this: Pre OMD Peter is meh like Harry and Gabriel. I am happy to see Norman back as the douche we all cannot stand, but to really make the kind of impression that Conway did after 121 he needs to follow it up like Conway did in 122. That means no comedown in the next issue, and that means Gwen

Never read that Gwen comic, but if You say that there is a clear connection with Kingping now... It makes more sense.

I understand Your point of Kindred being Gwen, but I still can't believe that Spencer would go into that direction. It would contradict too much of Clone Conspiracy, even stuff that Spencer himself stated (like Strange confirming, that Billy's original soul is in the cloned body).

[NC_Yankee]

Never read that Gwen comic, but if You say that there is a clear connection with Kingping now... It makes more sense.

I understand Your point of Kindred being Gwen, but I still can't believe that Spencer would go into that direction. It would contradict too much of Clone Conspiracy, even stuff that Spencer himself stated (like Strange confirming, that Billy's original soul is in the cloned body).

I have seen far too many stories that have messed with canon: Silk, The Other and Year One and that is just a start,,so changing Clone Conspiracy is no big deal. One other point: If a piece of Peter was left behind in Hell why not a piece of MJ for that matter? I also noted that the incomplete Peter and Spider-Man was done in Superior and in Spencer already.

[Snoop Dogg]

wait he still didnt reveal it oh my goooooooooooooooood

[WebSlingWonder]

wait he still didnt reveal it oh my goooooooooooooooood

Patience is the virtue, here All good things come to those with patience...

[PCN24454]

Patience is the virtue...

...that I don't have.

It's almost as painful as the Red Hulk mystery.

[WebSlingWonder]

...that I don't have.

It's almost as painful as the Red Hulk mystery.

I think it's better than that; the clues create intrigue, suspense, and an actual mystery that is threaded through every arc in this book. It's pretty neat! And as I'm sure people will say; this isn't the first time we've waited for a mystery reveal. Hobgoblin was introduced in ASM #238 and didn't get "revealed" the first time until #289: that's 51 issues later, and it wasn't even the right person lol

[Jman27]

I think it's better than that; the clues create intrigue, suspense, and an actual mystery that is threaded through every arc in this book. It's pretty neat! And as I'm sure people will say; this isn't the first time we've waited for a mystery reveal. Hobgoblin was introduced in ASM #238 and didn't get "revealed" the first time until #289: that's 51 issues later, and it wasn't even the right person lol

Well difference is we live in a instance gratification time I truly believe whoever Kindred is wont please everybody I dont really care who the person is more so what their overall goal. I feel like people are going to use his identity as an excuse for them to like the run or not

[Kingkalamari]

#850 solidified OMD Pete as Kindred for me with the direct parallels between what Norman says here about Parker being his legacy/son, and what Cleatus-Osborn says to Kindred in #31, being exactly the same thing. That personality was able to crack it just knowing what Osborn longs for inside him.

Also, that moment was the first time in the run that Kindred, who made everyone flee and grovel to him up to that point, was no longer the person in control. Imagine for a second that if Kindred is OMD Pete, who believes he is totally justified in what he is doing, is told that he would make Osborn proud for what he had become, it would be the last thing he wanted to hear, which is exactly how he responded, flustered and unable to be the confident monster he appeared as before as Cleatus-Osborn laughs in his face.

Gwen and Harry, for many reasons, I dont think are Kindred because they wouldn't of ended up in Hell, were shown in #850 alongside Flash to be friends to Parker and victims of Osborn. Kindred is not a friend, he is someone with deep ties to Parker in a way he seems to be the same person.... because he is.

[Triniking1234]

I don't get this OMD Pete theory.
How does that work?
Nick gonna pull a Madelyne Pryor?

[bob.schoonover]

I don't get this OMD Pete theory.
How does that work?
Nick gonna pull a Madelyne Pryor?

OMD/OMIT is a mystical time-travel story. There is no writer worth employing at Marvel that cannot use those two features to make almost anything work.

I think the simple(?) version of the theory would be: After Peter and MJ made the deal with Mephisto (circa ASM 540-whatever), Mephisto went back in time and altered the timeline. From the point of the alteration (the Wedding annual), a piece of Peter (and MJ's?) soul (or the essence of their marriage) was expelled into Hell, rose up through the ranks of demons, and became Kindred. The soul-piece thing (Kindred) then would have existed before Civil War/Back in Black/May's recovery, closing the plot hole on how it could have walked Mysterio out of Hell before OMD happened.

[Kingkalamari]

I don't get this OMD Pete theory.
How does that work?
Nick gonna pull a Madelyne Pryor?

Apologies for the wall-o-text but heres a lil "kindred is OMD pete" rundown.

Fairly sure he's the part of Peter(and possibly MJ) tossed into hell from OMD, vengeful of being discarded ad Parker continues a seemingly happy life getting to ignore the consequences of his actions. Knowing the way Spencer writes, where he likes to lay out heavy foreshadowing so subsequent rereads recontextualizes the story after the big reveal(Captain America: Sam Wilson was a big one with this in all the chapters prior to Stevil reveal), I think he primed the core of his initial Spidey run to be build around Kindred, with a brooding mystery of their identity in the vein of Hobgoblin or such, and has littered his run with hints of Kindred's identity. Of course I should say I don't really know what Kindred's plans are outside of making Parker suffer, which is exciting going into Last Remains, which i think will be more exciting to figure out rather than just Kindred's identity. Anywhoo:

* He's been the only other consistent narrator through Spencer's run in the main issues outside Pete, and when he takes over the boxes turn blue, or even overlap with Peter's at times
* Has the Kingpin, who's actions killed Aunt May, kneel to him.
* Kindred is able to control the Tri-Sentinel, which Parker had rewired to only obey him
* When he tells Peter his name, before he says it the next panel is MJ waking him up from his nightmare saying PETE!
* Appears clinging the wall Spidey-esque in his visit to the escaped Mysterio
* Knows Mysterio's psychiatrist persona by name, which Spiderman uncovered after Mysterio tried to discredit him
* Explicitly references One More Day when nothing Mysterio begging for one more chance.
* Won't hurt MJ, intentionally got her out of town to launch his plan
* Knows Spiderman is Peter Parker but has no desire to tell others, only cares about showing Parker's hypocrisy
* During Absolute Carnage, he tells Norman how when Peter looks at Norman, hes reminded of the happy life he couldve had that was taken away, and then adds that the same can be said for himself
* Says they died in a unique way
* not my idea, but pulled from another post- one of the opening stories Parker got split in two, was a fun lesson on responsibility and how both sides of Peter need each other. But it was also about how destructive part of him can be when his conscience is removed.
* comment from elsewhere: When OMD happened, Mephisto said that part of the deal was that even though MJ and Peter'd have their memories erased, there'd always be a part of their souls that remained in Hell, knowing what happened and suffering for eternity
* In the Sins Rising Prelude, Stanley Carter is reliving his memories as Sin-Eater while presented in a late night talk show format, which is where he was after he was released being deemed "cured" from his Sin-Eater persona. Electro, also dead and who interrupted the talk show in the original run, is seen playing drums for the talk show's band, alongside an obscured red haired singer. The host of the show, who is interviewing Carter through his memories of Sin Eater and all the people he killed, resembles Peter Parker from the era of Spectacular Spider-Man, down to the haircut, and when the illusion drops, it's been Kindred talking to Carter the entire time, the only people involved in all these instances being Carter, Electro, and Parker.
* In ASM #44, we see Parker killed by Kindred in Madame Web's dreams, with only those considered Spider totems being able to maniplute the Web of Life. Kindred was also projecting into all the other Spider heroes.
* Sin-Eater, upgraded by Kindred's powers, now has the ability to shoot ectoplasmic rounds with his shotgun, which erase the "sins" of those hit and making them new people, essentially a walking retcon machine drawing parallels to OMD erasing Parker's actions.
* In the preview for #850, we see Norman calling back to when he thought of Parker like a son and his legacy, which is *exactly* what Cleatus-Osborn told Kindred in ASM #31, upsetting Kindred to the point where it was the first time in the series the all powerful demonic being who made the likes of Mendel Stromm, Kingpin, Mysterio, and others bow to him visibly upset by Cleatus-Osborn's words, which if Kindred is indeed a part of Parker, what greater insult could he recieve, believing his actions are ones in the right, than to hear that he is now the carrier of hate that Osborn brought into Parker's life.


Additionally, I'll say I dont think that Harry or Gwen will be Kindred for a few reasons.

1. I believe Kindred is suppose to be a new character created by Spencer, and making him a walking recuperation of OMD makes him familiar while also being something new. Making Kindred someone from Parker's past that we already know their history of just muddles that character's history.

2. Harry - Ignoring *massive* retcons that would be a disservice to Spidey history, Harry never did anything in his life that would make him end up on hell being tortured and fueled by hatred. His story was a sad one of abuse and me tal illness and his death is a tragic one where we see all he really wants are his old friends back, passing away at peace and forgiving Parker, saying he would always be his best friend. Making Harry who Kindred is would be a major spit in the face to a run and era of Spidey that Spencer has shown nothing but reverence for.

3. Gwen - On a simalar note of Harry, theres nothing she did that would land her in hell to be tortured for a long time, and both her and her father were shown to be at peace with Parker during Clone Conspiracy, which these clones were shown to be the original souls of both characters.


Now it's entirely possible Kindred's identity might not be anyone we've even seen before and Spencer has a backstory to a character that previously never had one all written and ready to be explained, and this would probably be my second choice of who Kindred is past OMD Parker shard.

Should also add I havent seen a compelling arguement for anyone else that would foreshadow Kindred being them, I'm totally open to hearing them but the ones I do hear need to be explained with clones and retcon nonsense, which is why OMD-Kindred works so well, it's coming off a existing retcon.

[G-Man34]

Incidentally, Kingpin does have ties to Gwen and Harry, through their fathers. Kingpin was behind the brainwashing plot that made Captain George Stacy rob that bank, and he knew Norman Osborn, so much that he and Harry were both being blackmailed by Roderick Kingsley as the Hobgoblin back in the 80's

[jsafanforever]

What about Kindred possibly being May (Peter and MJ's baby)? A remnant of OMD that shares Parker DNA and would get upset when a "son" type relationship is mentioned by Norman, knowing she's the daughter Peter never had.