Spider-Man 850 Discussion

[CrimsonEchidna]

Also it remains to be seen how the .LR issues will play out, but honestly outside of Gwen and to a lesser degree Miles, the others seem kind of superfluous here as far as their role in the story goes. Which i guess makes sense since only Gwen and Miles have indirect baggage with Norman (Gwen being Gwen lol, and Miles' origin being tied to his Peter being killed by Ultimate Norman).

Like hell, thinking about it this would've been a good story to rope Ben Reilly back into things but I guess Spencer is trying to give the character a rest from the reception from Clone Conspiracy lol

[your_name_here]

yeah I'm a little confused I think for Kindred he is about to bring back a character who has die cause the preview for the next issue i believe is that he will have dinner with them. As for Norman I think Peter left him to be cleanse cause I think Sin Eater is about to break out unless he is stuck underground

It’s the Norman part I’m querying really. I’m not sure if we were just seeing Sin Eater surviving, or if we were watching him advancing on Norman, too.

[WebSlingWonder]

Also it remains to be seen how the .LR issues will play out, but honestly outside of Gwen and to a lesser degree Miles, the others seem kind of superfluous here as far as their role in the story goes. Which i guess makes sense since only Gwen and Miles have indirect baggage with Norman (Gwen being Gwen lol, and Miles' origin being tied to his Peter being killed by Ultimate Norman).

Like hell, thinking about it this would've been a good story to rope Ben Reilly back into things but I guess Spencer is trying to give the character a rest from the reception from Clone Conspiracy lol

You're on the right track with Ben, and I thought he was shown in the end of #25, but I guess Spencer said "forget that noise" lol

[WebSlingWonder]

It’s the Norman part I’m querying really. I’m not sure if we were just seeing Sin Eater surviving, or if we were watching him advancing on Norman, too.

spoilers:

Well, Norman survived it looks like and is watching Peter and the Order drive off in his ship. If he did get "reformed" by Sin-Eater, I would think we'd see that on-panel.

end of spoilers

[WebSlingWonder]

who else is still dead that Peter directly or indirectly led to the death of?

Ben Parker is still dead. (Indirectly)
George Stacy is still dead. (Indirectly)
Jean Dewolff is still dead but Sin-Eater has been a constant reminder of her.
The Burglar is still dead. (Directly)
Charlie - Wolverine's friend. (Directly)

The above inserted page from Amazing Spider-Man 655 seems to show all the important dead people. Now the we just need to figure out who is in the grave at the end of 850? IS that Kindred's grave? If so, which of the shown characters could Kindred be?

From that picture and the list you have, you've got Ben Parker, Gwen Stacy, George Stacy, Jean DeWolff, The Burglar, Marla Madison (kind of returned in Clone Conspiracy), Charlie, Ezekiel, Ned Leeds (cloned in Clone Conspiracy, but died later on), Frederick Fosswell, The Bookie, Nathan Lubensky, Oksana (Rhino's wife), Vanessa Fisk, Timothy Harrison. None of those people qualify for Kindred except for The Burglar, Ezekiel, Ned, and Vanessa Fisk.

[stillanerd]

I also agree this the best characterization of Norman Osborn I've read in a long time and why he's Peter's nemesis, by ironically showing them working together. I also did like Spider-Gwen's speech about how the Order of the Spider squad should trust Spider-Man to do the right thing. Speaking of which, that whole subplot about how the other Spider-Folks needed to stop Spider-Man wound up being a bunch of false suspense, IMO, and further cements Julia Carpenter as the worst psychic in the world.

And although we didn't get a Kindred reveal (ugh!), the fact that this issue leaned so heavily on Gwen (including the story which shall not be mentioned), I'm definitely leaning more into the "Kindred is Gwen" camp. Especially given that exchange between Spider-Man and Green Goblin towards the end. Even though Norman's talking about Spider-Gwen when reminding Peter that it's always, "you and me," notice that he's making a subtle point that it's Gwen Stacy and her death which comes between them? Which also echoes how Kindred says that it's always "you and me" with regards to Peter and himself/herself.

Also, this is now the second time we have a panel showing Harry's death from Spectacular Spider-Man #200, even though Harry's still alive in-continuity. This is definitely deliberate on Spencer's part, which makes me think he's really trying to make us think Kindred is Harry, even though that also seems like a big old red herring.

[Jman27]

I also agree this the best characterization of Norman Osborn I've read in a long time and why he's Peter's nemesis, by ironically showing them working together. I also did like Spider-Gwen's speech about how the Order of the Spider squad should trust Spider-Man to do the right thing. Speaking of which, that whole subplot about how the other Spider-Folks needed to stop Spider-Man wound up being a bunch of false suspense, IMO, and further cements Julia Carpenter as the worst psychic in the world.

And although we didn't get a Kindred reveal (ugh!), the fact that this issue leaned so heavily on Gwen (including the story which shall not be mentioned), I'm definitely leaning more into the "Kindred is Gwen" camp. Especially given that exchange between Spider-Man and Green Goblin towards the end. Even though Norman's talking about Spider-Gwen when reminding Peter that it's always, "you and me," notice that he's making a subtle point that it's Gwen Stacy and her death which comes between them? Which also echoes how Kindred also says that it's always "you and me" with regards to Peter.

Also, this is now the second time we have a panel showing Harry's death from Spectacular Spider-Man #200, even though Harry's still alive in-continuity. This is definitely deliberate on Spencer's part, which makes me think he's really trying to make us think Kindred is Harry, even though that also seems like a big old red herring.

question about the Harry panel when was the first time did Spencer reference Harry death and also shouldnt that be retcon due to OMD?

[WebSlingWonder]

I also agree this the best characterization of Norman Osborn I've read in a long time and why he's Peter's nemesis, by ironically showing them working together. I also did like Spider-Gwen's speech about how the Order of the Spider squad should trust Spider-Man to do the right thing. Speaking of which, that whole subplot about how the other Spider-Folks needed to stop Spider-Man wound up being a bunch of false suspense, IMO, and further cements Julia Carpenter as the worst psychic in the world.

And although we didn't get a Kindred reveal (ugh!), the fact that this issue leaned so heavily on Gwen (including the story which shall not be mentioned), I'm definitely leaning more into the "Kindred is Gwen" camp. Especially given that exchange between Spider-Man and Green Goblin towards the end. Even though Norman's talking about Spider-Gwen when reminding Peter that it's always, "you and me," notice that he's making a subtle point that it's Gwen Stacy and her death which comes between them? Which also echoes how Kindred also says that it's always "you and me" with regards to Peter.

Also, this is now the second time we have a panel showing Harry's death from Spectacular Spider-Man #200, even though Harry's still alive in-continuity. This is definitely deliberate on Spencer's part, which makes me think he's really trying to make us think Kindred is Harry, even though that also seems like a big old red herring.

I agree with you about the focus on Gwen and the images of Harry's "death": Spencer knows exactly who we expect Kindred to be, and is seeking to throw all of us off balance because of it. The way I see it, there's three solidified candidates: Harry Osborn, Gwen Stacy, and Pre-OMD Peter Parker. Everyone else has little to no history with Osborn (at least, on-panel) and a deep connection to Peter that would rock his world. After this issue, I am FULLY on the Pre-OMD Peter train. That ending was the main reason why, especially in the context of the run as a whole.

[WebSlingWonder]

question about the Harry panel when was the first time did Spencer reference Harry death and also shouldnt that be retcon due to OMD?

It should! And the first time was in ASM #48.

[Jman27]

gotcha but thats so strange cause that would mean Harry is dead in Spencer run which isnt true cause he was mentioned in Absolute Carnage

[WebSlingWonder]

gotcha but thats so strange cause that would mean Harry is dead in Spencer run which isnt true cause he was mentioned in Absolute Carnage

No, he's alive. It just means that instead of the reasoning Slott gave in "Mind on Fire", it means that he did technically die in SPEC #200. Somehow, someway, Norman and Mysterio "faked his death", but that is a major clue as to Kindred's identity.

[TheCape]

I agree with you about the focus on Gwen and the images of Harry's "death": Spencer knows exactly who we expect Kindred to be, and is seeking to throw all of us off balance because of it. The way I see it, there's three solidified candidates: Harry Osborn, Gwen Stacy, and Pre-OMD Peter Parker. Everyone else has little to no history with Osborn (at least, on-panel) and a deep connection to Peter that would rock his world. After this issue, I am FULLY on the Pre-OMD Peter train. That ending was the main reason why, especially in the context of the run as a whole.

Honestly after reading the Absolute Carnage issues again, i'm convinced that he is a red herring.

[Jman27]

No, he's alive. It just means that instead of the reasoning Slott gave in "Mind on Fire", it means that he did technically die in SPEC #200. Somehow, someway, Norman and Mysterio "faked his death", but that is a major clue as to Kindred's identity.

I really need to read all of Spiderman chorology I started when I first read Superior got around secret wars but with Spidey started to have 3 series it was getting tough and I drop it.

[WebSlingWonder]

Honestly after reading the Absolute Carnage issues again, i'm convinced that he is a red herring.

Harry is most definitely a red herring. He hasn't shown up in the run at all, which wouldn't feel satisfying for readers because it's an "out-of-nowhere" character (technically).

[Dzika_Sowa]

Spencer does a pretty good job of baffling readers. In one issue people think it's OMD Peter, in another it seems that Kindred is Harry... and then, Gwen is primary suspect.

Thee guy does it on purpose, and he's really good at it. I wonder if he is sitting here with us on the forum and reading our posts with amusement. If so - great job! Spider-Man has not been so good for a long time in both Peter Parker's actions and conflicts.

Going back to Kindred's identity, I don't think it's Gwen or Harry, and the panel with Peter's dying friend is red herring. It's the same case with references to Gwen in # 49 / # 850. Spencer played well with GG and Spider-Gwen's dialogue, etc. And he tries to confuse us.

Moreover, after this issue, I really believe that Kindred is OMD Peter. Our Centidemon just enters the monologue and thoughts of Spider-Man, he is the narrator in the comic book in which the protagonist is Peter - for me, that's an important clue.

There's also Kindred's way of being, his dark sense of humor, and rather a laid-back personality. It seems as if he was a Parker reflection from a crooked mirror.

I believe that Spencer is giving us subtle hints. Kindred sticks to the walls, just like Spidey. He uses a centipede (opponents of spiders - the opposite of a spider, just as Kindred is the opposite of Parker). Kindred cares about Mary Jane - like Peter. Norman saw his legacy in him - a strong theme of #850.

These are the delicate hits that Kindred is Peter in some form ... after all, Peter Parker's biggest opponent is often himself ... here, literally.

Oh, and one more thing that doesn't appeal to me with theories that Kindred is Gwen.

Clone Conspiracy. If Kindred is Gwen, then Slott's story makes no sense. Spencer himself confirmed that the clones have original souls - so Gwen's clone from CC is the real deal. Why would Spencer contradict himself?

Harry still seems like he might be Kindred, but as I mentioned earlier - it's probably a red herring.

Phew. Writing this was kinda exhausting