Spider-Man 850 Discussion

[WebSlingWonder]

Spencer does a pretty good job of baffling readers. In one issue people think it's OMD Peter, in another it seems that Kindred is Harry... and then, Gwen is primary suspect.

Thee guy does it on purpose, and he's really good at it. I wonder if he is sitting here with us on the forum and reading our posts with amusement. If so - great job! Spider-Man has not been so good for a long time in both Peter Parker's actions and conflicts.

Going back to Kindred's identity, I don't think it's Gwen or Harry, and the panel with Peter's dying friend is red herring. It's the same case with references to Gwen in # 49 / # 850. Spencer played well with GG and Spider-Gwen's dialogue, etc. And he tries to confuse us.

Moreover, after this issue, I really believe that Kindred is OMD Peter. Our Centidemon just enters the monologue and thoughts of Spider-Man, he is the narrator in the comic book in which the protagonist is Peter - for me, that's an important clue.

There's also Kindred's way of being, his dark sense of humor, and rather a laid-back personality. It seems as if he was a Parker reflection from a crooked mirror.

I believe that Spencer is giving us subtle hints. Kindred sticks to the walls, just like Spidey. He uses a centipede (opponents of spiders - the opposite of a spider, just as Kindred is the opposite of Parker). Kindred cares about Mary Jane - like Peter. Norman saw his legacy in him - a strong theme of #850.

These are the delicate hits that Kindred is Peter in some form ... after all, Peter Parker's biggest opponent is often himself ... here, literally.

Oh, and one more thing that doesn't appeal to me with theories that Kindred is Gwen.

Clone Conspiracy. If Kindred is Gwen, then Slott's story makes no sense. Spencer himself confirmed that the clones have original souls - so Gwen's clone from CC is the real deal. Why would Spencer contradict himself?

Harry still seems like he might be Kindred, but as I mentioned earlier - it's probably a red herring.

Phew. Writing this was kinda exhausting

Great analysis! And welcome to the boards!

[Dzika_Sowa]

Great analysis! And welcome to the boards!

Haha, thanks! I've been lurking around here for years, finally decided to join in

[bob.schoonover]

Haha, thanks! I've been lurking around here for years, finally decided to join in

Gwen saying Peter had earned the right to make his choice is a really powerful line on it's own, but quite a harbinger of doom if Kindred = OMD Peter.

[WebSlingWonder]

Gwen saying Peter had earned the right to make his choice is a really powerful line on it's own, but quite a harbinger of doom if Kindred = OMD Peter.

EXACTLY! That line gave it away.

[bob.schoonover]

EXACTLY! That line gave it away.

I think the Kindred = OMD Peter theory has some real meat to it, but no one has been able to address how in the world Spencer managed to muzzle the Marvel hype machine. I just can't fathom sales/marketing not going balls to the walls with a campaign of some kind if OMD is being addressed.

[WebSlingWonder]

I think the Kindred = OMD Peter theory has some real meat to it, but no one has been able to address how in the world Spencer managed to muzzle the Marvel hype machine. I just can't fathom sales/marketing not going balls to the walls with a campaign of some kind if OMD is being addressed.

Well, that I agree with! The Marvel hype machine didn't even keep quiet about Green Goblin being in this issue LOL but...Spencer has some pull and influence, and this is his only ongoing Marvel title that he's writing. Being the forerunner of the Spider-Man books for the time being probably allows you some power.

[NC_Yankee]

I think the Kindred = OMD Peter theory has some real meat to it, but no one has been able to address how in the world Spencer managed to muzzle the Marvel hype machine. I just can't fathom sales/marketing not going balls to the walls with a campaign of some kind if OMD is being addressed.

Unless OMD is history, the movie idea of pre OMD Peter as Kindred sucks.We have been down this incomplete Peter/Spider-Man road before. First with Superior then with the separation in Spencer. I expect better from Spencer. I am still predicting Gwen.

[Dzika_Sowa]

Well, that I agree with! The Marvel hype machine didn't even keep quiet about Green Goblin being in this issue LOL but...Spencer has some pull and influence, and this is his only ongoing Marvel title that he's writing. Being the forerunner of the Spider-Man books for the time being probably allows you some power.

I remember rising this point in other topic, remember people saying something like the Covid being the cause, making the comics harder to promote. Something like that.

I too find it weird. Most of Slott Stories were celebrated as big events, milestones. #850 feels like a celebrated issue, but not as big as those in Slott's run.

Anyway, maybe we will see some marketing and PR related to Last Remains in few days?

[WebSlingWonder]

Unless OMD is history, the movie idea of pre OMD Peter as Kindred sucks.We have been down this incomplete Peter/Spider-Man road before. First with Superior then with the separation in Spencer. I expect better from Spencer. I am still predicting Gwen.

Dude, I'm sorry, but the way that "I expect better from Spencer" sounds very antagonistic and you're going to set yourself up for disappointment if you're strong-arming Kindred to be Gwen.

[WebSlingWonder]

I remember rising this point in other topic, remember people saying something like the Covid being the cause, making the comics harder to promote. Something like that.

I too find it weird. Most of Slott Stories were celebrated as big events, milestones. #850 feels like a celebrated issue, but not as big as those in Slott's run.

Anyway, maybe we will see some marketing and PR related to Last Remains in few days?

I'd count on it! We've already gotten a press release from Marvel.com for "Last Remains" and an Instagram campaign. I bet they're itching to promote this next arc because we'll find out the truth about Kindred.

[NC_Yankee]

Dude, I'm sorry, but the way that "I expect better from Spencer" sounds very antagonistic and you're going to set yourself up for disappointment if you're strong-arming Kindred to be Gwen.

I am not strong arming Kindred to be Gwen. Why? I have 0.00000000% say so in the matter. Would I be disappointed if OMD is not history or there is not a Maximum Bang For The Buck ( meaning Gwen)? Absolutely: But why? This story has been going on for two years now, and there needs to be a payoff that justifies the time that was spent on this story.

[WebSlingWonder]

I am not strong arming Kindred to be Gwen. Why? I have 0.00000000% say so in the matter. Would I be disappointed if OMD is not history or there is not a Maximum Bang For The Buck ( meaning Gwen)? Absolutely: But why? This story has been going on for two years now, and there needs to be a payoff that justifies the time that was spent on this story.

Spencer being as good of a writer for this title makes me believe there will be good payoff, no matter who Kindred is. You gotta have some faith, man.

[stillanerd]

Unless OMD is history, the movie idea of pre OMD Peter as Kindred sucks.We have been down this incomplete Peter/Spider-Man road before. First with Superior then with the separation in Spencer. I expect better from Spencer. I am still predicting Gwen.

Yeah, like I said earlier, I'm definitely leaning more into the Kindred is Gwen camp. Don't get me wrong, the "Kindred is Pre-One More Day Peter" theory is intriguing, and, as pointed out earlier in the thread, definitely has circumstantial evidence to back it up. However, there's at least four big problems with it:

1. Like Sal from ComicPop said, Nick Spencer isn't the kind of writer who explores esoteric, metaphysical concepts in his stories. The closest he got was "Secret Empire," but it was pretty obvious Spencer intended for Steve Rogers and HydraCap to same one and the same, and the only reason they became two separate entities is because Marvel editorial went into damage control mode thanks to all the negative backlash they got.

2. It's a pretty convoluted explanation for a mystery villain if you think about it. It also relies way too much on continuity that causal readers may simply not get. We literally have to say, "Well, Kindred is actually a portion of Peter Parker's soul from Hell which was created as a result of Peter and MJ's deal with Mephisto to erase their marriage in order to save Aunt May's life" it order to explain it. Contrast this with, "Kindred is Gwen Stacy back from the dead," and it's very easy to understand why that's significant without going down a continuity rabbit hole.

3. Mysterio's return in Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man as an agent of Hell is often cited as evidence. But if Kindred is Pre-One More Day Peter and also Mysterio's master, then how is that possible since that FNSM story took place before One More Day happened. Yes, I know there's another issue that talks about how "Time is fluid in Hell" but it still requires Pre-One More Day Peter existing and already damned to Hell before One More Day ever happened.

4. If you actually go back and re-read One More Day and One Moment in Time, Mephisto specifically states he doesn't want Peter or MJ's soul, portion or otherwise; he wants their marriage. And it's very clear that what Mephisto actually does is alter history so that the marriage--and subsequently the deal--never actually happened. The "torment" he talks about is that Peter and MJ will always feel as though something is missing from their lives but they won't be able to remember what it is. So Kindred can't be a portion of Peter's soul since Mephisto never took it to begin with. Unless Kindred is somehow the memory of Peter and MJ's marriage made manifest, given physical form, and obtained self-awareness which, again, goes back to being convoluted and esoteric.

[WebSlingWonder]

Yeah, like I said earlier, I'm definitely leaning more into the Kindred is Gwen camp. Don't get me wrong, the "Kindred is Pre-One More Day Peter" theory is intriguing, and, as pointed out earlier in the thread, definitely has circumstantial evidence to back it up. However, there's at least four big problems with it:

1. Like Sal from ComicPop said, Nick Spencer isn't the kind of writer who explores esoteric, metaphysical concepts in his stories. The closest he got was "Secret Empire," but it was pretty obvious Spencer intended for Steve Rogers and HydraCap to same one and the same, and the only reason they became two separate entities is because Marvel editorial went into damage control mode thanks to all the negative backlash they got.

2. It's a pretty convoluted explanation for a mystery villain if you think about it. It also relies way too much on continuity that causal readers may simply not get. We literally have to say, "Well, Kindred is actually a portion of Peter Parker's soul from Hell which was created as a result of Peter and MJ's deal with Mephisto to erase their marriage in order to save Aunt May's life" it order to explain it. Contrast this with, "Kindred is Gwen Stacy back from the dead," and it's very easy to understand why that's significant without going down a continuity rabbit hole.

3. Mysterio's return in Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man as an agent of Hell is often cited as evidence. But if Kindred is Pre-One More Day Peter and also Mysterio's master, then how is that possible since that FNSM story took place before One More Day happened. Yes, I know there's another issue that talks about how "Time is fluid in Hell" but it still requires Pre-One More Day Peter existing and already damned to Hell before One More Day ever happened.

4. If you actually go back and re-read One More Day and One Moment in Time, Mephisto specifically states he doesn't want Peter or MJ's soul, portion or otherwise; he wants their marriage. And it's very clear that what Mephisto actually does is alter history so that the marriage--and subsequently the deal--never actually happened. The "torment" he talks about is that Peter and MJ will always feel as though something is missing from their lives but they won't be able to remember what it is. So Kindred can't be a portion of Peter's soul since Mephisto never took it to begin with. Unless Kindred is somehow the memory of Peter and MJ's marriage made manifest, given physical form, and obtained self-awareness which, again, goes back to being convoluted and esoteric.

So, I see what you're saying, but I also want to counter with this:

1) Why can't Spencer go that route with this story? Being esoteric and metaphysical began with the first arc in this story. I saw a YouTube analysis saying that Spencer was actually doing a critique of Dan Slott's Spider-Man portrayal with the other Spider-Man in that story. Do I subscribe to that? Yes, and if that's the first arc, imagine what Spencer can do across 60+ issues? Just because his writing style hasn't been one way doesn't mean it couldn't change.

2) There are people who understand OMD and dislike it because of its premise who have never read comics. And who's to say that Gwen as Kindred wouldn't be badly received from those same people? I know I wouldn't like it (why would Peter's former girlfriend come back from the dead as a demonic entity? That doesn't even sound right)

3) You said it yourself: "time is fluid in Hell". That's an easy fix.

4) This is the point that bothered me the most. The deal never happened according to "One Moment in Time"; but that's not true. Spider-Man/Deadpool by Joe Kelly and Ed McGuinness made reference to the deal and mentioned that Peter's soul would feel empty and incomplete no matter what he did. That warrants a conclusion, even after OMIT, and Mephisto himself has alluded to "messing with spiders". He would remember the deal and lord it over Peter. And you're right: he didn't ask for his soul, but remember that this Peter is different than the one who made the deal. This Peter is the copy made from fragments of Peter's mind (from Superior) and the original Peter died in ASM #700. Is it complicated? Yes: but a writer like Spencer would streamline it and make it plain for readers to get. Plus, that's a heck of a story across 10+ years that would certainly be one for the ages if Spencer sticks the landing. Who would pass that up?

(Also, if you're worried about people not understanding the continuity, Marvel.com recently posted an article explaining the "X of Swords" crossover for people, which I KNOW is more complicated than this! It can be done! )

[Tien Long]

It was... fine. The issue wasn't great, but it wasn't bad either. I'm a bit disappointed because I expected more.

Yeah, I'm feeling you, bro. There were some good moments in this issue, but there were other ones that frustrated me. I'm edging slightly towards frustration with this issue.

Overall though, the issue had significance. It was a good character study of the relationship between Norman and Peter. Seeing them work together was cool. Webbing up the pumpkin bombs and tossing them at Sin-Eater as well as coming up with a plot to trap the Sin-Eater, those were excellent moments. Norman's betrayal and creepiness as well as Pete keeping his code and realizing the consequences of that code, those were frustrating, but in a good way. Yeah, throwing Norman out of the escape pod, it's not a pure comeuppance type of move, but it's the best you can do at that moment. Of course, there were those Spencer subversions, like Norman casually tossing his bombs at people just as Pete says "No one di-." Classic.

The things that frustrated in a not-so good way were at first minor. The appearance of Juggernaut Sin-Eater really creeped me out. Reminded me of some freaky deeky things I've seen on YouTube. Also I didn't think there was enough Spidey action. There was a cool punch there, the webbing to bring down the walls, and a nice flip, but I would have liked more. I get Gwen declaring that Pete didn't have to stand up to Norman, that she could handle narcissitic psychopaths just fine, that she isn't some "damsel in distress" who needed a man to protect her. However, I think she could have let Pete have that moment. There's a lot of intense feelings Pete has, especially when it comes to Gwen and especially when it comes to what Green Goblin did to Gwen. Peter needed to express that.

Also, there wasn't a lot of resolution in this issue. Still don't know who Kindred is. Sin-Eater and his army are still running amok. Green Goblin had all of these secret lairs and escapes, but for what?

So, the issue overall, was frustrating. Plenty of good moments. But plenty of moments that edged on the bad kind of frustration.

The someone always dies panel, the hand to the door. That's Gwen, right? Harry and Flash were the other two.

I thought that panel with the hand on the door was a call back to MJ not leaving the room after Pete told her to leave just when Gwen had died. Could it refer to something else though?