Kurt Wagner killed the Phoenix Force... how the hell's that possible?

[GMikey]

Please read this in its ENTIRETY, I don't want to be flamed for asking a question... thank you

This is WHY I've had so many questions about Marvel's cosmology and dog-gone Phoenix Force.

So I've been in some rather heated debates on various platforms about the Phoenix and how it works. While our admin gave us her rendition of what the Phoenix Force should be, and to move forward from there... there were still squabbles about it, and even some dissatisfaction. However, a new challenger has come into the arena, using Marvel's own canon (or partial canon as I'd see it). This is causing some jumping up and down in our fan club, and I'd like some outside input. I swear, ppl have too much time on their hands, and I dunno HOW the hell someone scrapes up new info everyday on this subject matter.

In "What If?" 23, its about the X-Men facing off the Phoenix, however it never inhabits Jean Grey's body. Instead, Cyclops was prepared to sacrifice himself so the cosmic entity can be "killed", but Nightcrawler does it instead, becoming one with the Phoenix, to destroy it?????????

There's the articles that were provided...
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Phoen...ce_(Earth-913)
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Kurt_Wagner_(Earth-913)

I didn't find a version of this comic in my digital library, nor was willing to purchase a "What If" issue.

Also it was pointed out that by the same person, that in the Phoenix's description, it says... "Phoenix Force shared a similar history to its Prime Universe counter-part..." and states that this is "proof" the Phoenix operates on a universal level, per universe, and is an entity capable of being destroyed. New Sun was brought up again, stating that this issue of the comic proves that New Sun "killing the Phoenix" had probably actually "blown up" the cosmic entity, or whatever. I will say, it IS kinda vague, the way it was put with New Sun. It didn't say he killed Phoenix's host, it said he killed "The Phoenix", with very little context to what that actually means, according to the writers.

So... how is this to be interpreted, I'm ONLY asking opinions, I'm not gonna debate anyone on any answer, just give a thanks, and maybe a light comment on it.

Also... at this point, I'm wondering, and tell me if I'm right OR wrong... but, is Marvel's cosmology something you simply interpret on your own, its open for you to interpret these things according to how YOU prefer to see it... OOOOOR... is there rhyme and reason that actually exists? I'm confused as hell

[Rnap22]

What’s the question? An alt reality character killed the Phoenix force. Or did it just for that issue? A Phoenix always rises from the ashes is it probably rose again. It’s a What If. Jean sacrificed herself to kill it, but it eventually comes back.

[Alan2099]

They say in the comic that they don't know if what they're doing will permanently kill the Phoenix or not, as they've managed to kill it before.

The comic is also a little bit vague on how what they're doing works. They seem to be going by the explanation that you can kill the Phoenix by killing what it inhabits, so they're using some kind of machine to force the Phoenix to take Nightcrawler as a host and then Nightcralwer is killing himself.

[GMikey]

They say in the comic that they don't know if what they're doing will permanently kill the Phoenix or not, as they've managed to kill it before.

The comic is also a little bit vague on how what they're doing works. They seem to be going by the explanation that you can kill the Phoenix by killing what it inhabits, so they're using some kind of machine to force the Phoenix to take Nightcrawler as a host and then Nightcralwer is killing himself.

Well... I suppose the question is a bit loaded. Basically, its hard to determine the best interpretation and correct info of the Phoenix, its powers and what it cannot do. I've seen endless debates of what the Phoenix is capable of, how it is vulnerable and such. I've seen arguments, been a part of them, and they still go on. For reasons, I'm trying to find the truth. Its very difficult, and others don't make it easy for the inquirer. The real issue is the lousy job the writers have done in structuring the Phoenix. So... I'm very confused about many things.

The question, in question, is... I guess was the Phoenix destroyed in this comic or not rly? Also, is this "proof" of the Phoenix being a "universal" force rather than "multiversal"? On there, it states this Phoenix is similar to its "Prime Universe" counterpart, as if to say there's like, a separate Phoenix Force per universe (which makes more sense, considering how these comics seem to work).

Also, also, is this cosmic stuff rly just up for personal interpretation, OR is there supposed to be an actual structure in the cosmology?

What’s the question? An alt reality character killed the Phoenix force. Or did it just for that issue? A Phoenix always rises from the ashes is it probably rose again. It’s a What If. Jean sacrificed herself to kill it, but it eventually comes back.

Well as stated above... I'm confused by how Marvel's cosmic beings "work". Its confusing bc writers seem to write differently with no foundation or good consensus to go by, therefore, this leaves fans to create varying, conflicting headcanon, and when you ask a question, its hard to determine what's actually true... IF anything is affirmatively true (as again, this could be up for interpretation).

Repeating my question from above... The question, in question, is... I guess was the Phoenix destroyed in this comic or not rly? also, is this cosmic stuff rly just up for personal interpretation, OR is there supposed to be an actual structure in the cosmology?

[Rnap22]

Well as I stated above, it’s the Phoenix. You can kill it but it will rise up. It’s a cosmic entity. It’s death and rebirth. It’s a constant cycle. So, yes it can be killed, it yes it will be reborn. I’m not sure how people don’t understand stand that.

[Zelena]

Killing a cosmic force? What would it mean?

[Glio]

Killing a cosmic force? What would it mean?

I really don't know if it's irony or not because they kill them all the time.

Galactus died recently.

[GMikey]

Well as I stated above, it’s the Phoenix. You can kill it but it will rise up. It’s a cosmic entity. It’s death and rebirth. It’s a constant cycle. So, yes it can be killed, it yes it will be reborn. I’m not sure how people don’t understand stand that.

I mean hey, I'm surrounded by competing headcanons, and when you don't have physical comics in hand (like me) then you're rly impaired with knowing the correct canon.

It also doesn't help that canon will backflip according to each writer, and you can also get lost, with no grounded consensus for all this.

I really don't know if it's irony or not because they kill them all the time.

Galactus died recently.

The idea of "killing" a cosmic being doesn't make too much sense if you ask me. And I said before, I get super confused with the surrounded headcanons competing over how to interpret these narratives, which they themselves aren't even consistent.

[Zelena]

I really don't know if it's irony or not because they kill them all the time.

Galactus died recently.

Do you consider that Galactus and the Phoenix are somewhat equivalent?

I see more Galactus as a cosmic behemoth than a cosmic force… and Phoenix as an emanation of the universe dynamics. It embodied in a humane form but it’s not its natural state.

[Glio]

Do you consider that Galactus and the Phoenix are somewhat equivalent?

I see more Galactus as a cosmic behemoth than a cosmic force… and Phoenix as an emanation of the universe dynamics. It embodied in a humane form but it’s not its natural state.

Galactus is necessary so that the universe can restart when it ends. It is next to the Phoenix the only cosmic force that the Dominions fear.

Yes, Galactus is a lower level cosmic entity than Phoenix, but he is still a cosmic entity. They are not all at the same level.

[Blackphoenix]

It's a What If: anything can happen in them and they really aren't bound by canon most of the time. You're overthinking it.

[Raz]

It's a What If: anything can happen in them and they really aren't bound by canon most of the time. You're overthinking it.

^^^^^^this