Invincible vs Frieza Saga Goku

[JohnDiggle]

Can Mark stand a chance against goku on Namek?

[Nik Hasta]

He's stronger for sure. Speed is really hard to figure out to be honest.

Is this endgame Mark? He's very fast but... urgh... this is a complex one.

Goku is going to have a devil of a time making an impact on him though. His regular chi blasts at this point really aren't going to scratch Mark so he'd have to charge them and Mark isn't going to give him that opening.

Goku is more skilled though but Mark can do horrendous damage with just a light tap comparatively.

[JohnDiggle]

Yeah this is Mark at the end.

[Nik Hasta]

Yeah this is Mark at the end.

Right, given he threw down with Thragg, Goku is going to have an absolute dickens of a time hiring him with anything short of his biggest moves and Mark hits /really/ hard at this point.

It's not a clean sweep, but I think advantage Mark.

[Guy1]

Normal Goku or Super Saiyan?

[JohnDiggle]

Normal Goku or Super Saiyan?

Both would be fine.

[grampagen]

Mark went for a brief dip in the surface of the sun while he threw down with Thragg, and while he wasn't unscathed, he did live.

Hmm...by presentation, Goku is more skilled, but I don't think he can choke Mark out the way Mark did Conquest. With basic knowledge, he might try to pick his shots and clap his ears but will definitely get the worst of each exchange.

[The Drunkard Kid]

My memory of Invincible is a bit fuzzy, but I don't remember Vitrumites, even Mark, ever getting nearly durable enough to be able to shrug off Goku's base level ki-blasts during his fight against Frieza, where Piccolo was saying that either of the combatants could have destroyed the entire planet at any time.

And before anyone cites the destruction of the Vitrumites homeworld, Mark, his dad, and the third guy that came along were using a super powerful energy gun that belonged to one of his dad's old enemies to drill a hole through the core of the planet while flying through and Mark was told that even touching the sides of the hole would have instantly killed him, IIRC. That said, I didn't really keep up with the series after Mark left Earth to be taken over by that one guy, so maybe he got some sort of massive power up that let him shrug off Goku's Class 100 strength and concentrated planet buster energy blasts.

[Nik Hasta]

I mean, a lot to disagree with there.

First off, there's no evidence that Goku and Frieza's casual ki blasts were planet threatening. They blew up small islands and the like but nothing close to planetary level. I see a fun reference to "concentrated planet busting energy," and my soul is leaping right out of my body.

Also, Goku flatly is not Class 100. He's also nowhere near as physically powerful as Mark even halfway through the series based on strength feats he actually has.

[The Drunkard Kid]

Even discounting that A) both characters were literally thousands of times stronger than people who have casually blown up mountains/cities/moons, B) that the person who started that either Goku or (a massively holding back) Frieza could have blown up the planet at any time was Piccolo, a martial arts master of literally legendary skill and with centuries of experience who has the ability to sense ki, C) that a Frieza using less than 1% of his power casually punted away an all-out, allegedly planet-busting attack from a Vegeta who was many times more powerful than when he was threatening to blow up the Earth with his all-out attack, or D) that Frieza seemed to have blown up Planet Vegeta, which is massive/dense enough to have 10 times Earth a gravity, in his massively weaker First Form (explicitly in the original anime and heavily implied in the original manga - and I think confirmed in the Dragon Ball Minus chapter of the manga - what with Vegeta believing that Frieza was powerful enough to do so even before he learned that Frieza could transform) and the anime version of Fourth Form Frieza *did* launch a casual energy blast that blew up a nearby planet when Goku just as casually slapped it away... being able to concentrate their ki-blasts is an ability Dragon Ball ki users explicitly have, which was shown both before and during that fight (like how Frieza's differ beams either blow up islands/Dende or pierce through people at his whim or how Goku wasn't sure that he couldn't control his Genki Dama from accidentally blowing up Namek). Hell, after Frieza accidentally flubbed his initial planet buster (explicitly for CIS reasons rather than power level reasons), Goku taunted him by pointing out that if he *really* wanted to blow up the planet instead of fighting him, them there is nothing that Goku could do to stop him from doing so at any time.

In terms of strength feats, Goku smacked Frieza so hard that it leveled 2 islands and caused the ground to shake all the way to at least the horizon, hard enough that Piccolo was staggering from said horizon, at the point in the fight where both Goku and Frieza were just testing the waters. Later in the fight, Goku the Frieza so hard that that it caused a hill to explode, and just as with the above feat, it didn't even cause Frieza any actual damage since Goku had to go SSJ to actually be a peer to Frieza. Later on, Goku and others who use his same basic power set show that they are incomprehensibly stronger than this era's Frieza by. casually manhandling/splattering people on that tier, even though Dragonball doesn't generally do the same sort of non-hitting-people strength feats of other series, as hitting people generally solves their problems just fine.

[big_adventure]

... as hitting people generally solves their problems just fine.

Just... that.

[Nik Hasta]

Small request; can I request more line breaks in future posts? This was a bit dense to read and could have benefited from being broken up a little.

Even discounting that A) both characters were literally thousands of times stronger than people who have casually blown up mountains/cities/moons,

First, in terms of scale, thousands of times stronger than mountain busting/city busting isn't remotely close to the orders of magnitude required to blow away a planet. Planets are astronomically bigger than mountains. Again, as noted when I did my last post about how dumb Roshi and Piccolo moon busting is, even the largest mountain on our planet is 10 million times smaller than the planet itself. Claiming that you can scale to planet busting purely through mountain or city busting feats just isn't feasible without a lot more orders of magnitude than we're playing with here.

Second, as referenced, please see my long standing disagreement with the moon busting in question being considered as a reasonable part of the DBZ power curve. While Frieza can blow up planets, claiming that the basis for that argument is based on what other characters have done just isn't true.

B) that the person who started that either Goku or (a massively holding back) Frieza could have blown up the planet at any time was Piccolo, a martial arts master of literally legendary skill and with centuries of experience who has the ability to sense ki,

Isn't a feat so it's not really meaningful, also it doesn't mean Frieza was putting planet sundering force into every blast like you are claiming. Also, just to note, Piccolo is canonically like... 10 years old at the time he fought Frieza, right?

C) that a Frieza using less than 1% of his power casually punted away an all-out, allegedly planet-busting attack from a Vegeta who was many times more powerful than when he was threatening to blow up the Earth with his all-out attack,

Hardly relevant. Kicking away a planet buster energy sphere does not imply that every single ki blast Frieza ever fired was actually planet busting level of strength.

or D) that Frieza seemed to have blown up Planet Vegeta, which is massive/dense enough to have 10 times Earth a gravity, in his massively weaker First Form (explicitly in the original anime and heavily implied in the original manga - and I think confirmed in the Dragon Ball Minus chapter of the manga - what with Vegeta believing that Frieza was powerful enough to do so even before he learned that Frieza could transform) and the anime version of Fourth Form Frieza *did* launch a casual energy blast that blew up a nearby planet when Goku just as casually slapped it away...

So, your position is that; because Frieza in the anime only has a singular feat of a random ki blast blowing up a planet, all ki blasts in the fight fired by him or Goku are of that level regardless of the feats actually shown by said blasts? I'm sorry, this is just really not convincing.

Like, let's look at some other bits that happen in the match. There's a point where Frieza does a big slicing beam and cuts a trench deep into the ground that goes off over the horizon. Goku dodges it and is like "Owa what power," and Frieza's like "Pssh, that's nothing, I could destroy the whole planet if I wanted," the implication being that he did not put planet busting energy into that beam.

Similarly, when Goku has gone SSJ, Frieza tries to shoot him with finger beams and Goku is dodging them. He then invites Frieza to shoot him and deliberately takes one to the face and it doesn't hurt him. Is your argument that this was actually planet busting beam and Goku is now planet buster proof? Again, I do not find that convincing.

Also, not for nothing, but these are all feats for Frieza, not Goku. I'm charitably going along with the notion that the feats are somewhat transferable but you should aim to provide feats for the character in question.

To be clear, I don't doubt both of them can blow up planets. My point is that I don't believe that they can point and click them at this stage nor do I think they are throwing out that level of destructive force with random shots like you seem to be claiming.

being able to concentrate their ki-blasts is an ability Dragon Ball ki users explicitly have, which was shown both before and during that fight (like how Frieza's differ beams either blow up islands/Dende or pierce through people at his whim or how Goku wasn't sure that he couldn't control his Genki Dama from accidentally blowing up Namek). Hell, after Frieza accidentally flubbed his initial planet buster (explicitly for CIS reasons rather than power level reasons), Goku taunted him by pointing out that if he *really* wanted to blow up the planet instead of fighting him, them there is nothing that Goku could do to stop him from doing so at any time.

Again, none of this remotely indicates that "every casual blast is actually a planet buster," which was your claim.

Sure, some beams explode, some beams cut through things. Not disputing that. However, saying that all of them contain the ability to destroy a planet, just somehow condensed, ignores the feats in question, ignores the fact that Frieza and Goku would not be putting the peak of their power only condensed into every blast and is an incredibly generous way to read the series.

Heck, Krillen definitely couldn't blow up planets at that point and yet the Kienzan cut through Frieza's tail no problem.

In terms of strength feats, Goku smacked Frieza so hard that it leveled 2 islands and caused the ground to shake all the way to at least the horizon, hard enough that Piccolo was staggering from said horizon, at the point in the fight where both Goku and Frieza were just testing the waters. Later in the fight, Goku the Frieza so hard that that it caused a hill to explode, and just as with the above feat, it didn't even cause Frieza any actual damage since Goku had to go SSJ to actually be a peer to Frieza.

So, in order to scale Goku to Class 100, you're referencing two feats that themselves aren't Class 100 or even close to it.

Heck, let's bring up some scans for fun since I actually happen to have these ones on my hard drive from the last time this came up.

Goku drop kicks Frieza through a small plateau and he smashes into another small plateau.

Goku throws Frieza into a small stone hill. You can even see Goku for scale in this image. It's nowhere near Class 100 stuff.

Neither of them are remotely as physically powerful as Mark and neither, based off these feats, are Class 100.

[Laufeyson]

Mark will win as long as he punch him with the intent to kill. The problem with DBZ characters are their body are very fragille and doesn't take a planet busting punch quite well.

[big_adventure]

You make cogent points as always Nik, the only thing I'll chime in with is this:

SSJ Goku, who's allowed here, no-sells "trying" shots from Final Form Frieza. Final Form Frieza (not Full Power, just Final Form) is, canonically, 8x as strong as First Form Frieza. First Form Frieza relatively casually and completely canonically (because Toriyama said so) destroys Planet Vegeta with a slightly charged, but effort-free energy blast.

Nothing suggests it's an outlier.

So I'm just fine with Frieza-era SSJ Goku being able to resist planet-busting kinds of force without much trouble, and that's not just class 100, but extremely high-end class 100.

Another way to put this is "Power levels are bulls£$€."

[big_adventure]

Mark will win as long as he punch him with the intent to kill. The problem with DBZ characters are their body are very fragille and doesn't take a planet busting punch quite well.

Cell, Buu and the guys they spend hundreds of pages treating like punching bags would beg to differ.