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  1. #1
    Fantastic Member Castiel's Avatar
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    Default The 3 Joker's has got me wondering something about Harley

    If there are 3 then does that mean the one that abused her might not be the one she fell in love with? I mean I strongly think she fell for the comedian and ended up getting treated like trash by the Clown maybe even the Criminal. I really hope this gets addressed in the future. I honestly think it'd make for a good story line at least for a mini arc like the Criminal runs into her she attacks him and he just shoots and rather than acknowledge her or anything the Criminal is just like "Who the hell are you?" I really like that idea of her reacting to Joker not even knowing or caring who she is. Also I think it'd really screw with her head as it really just flat shows how little she truly knew about Joker. I mean I honestly do think she only interacted with the Clown and Comedian if they ever explain that. It just makes sense as the Criminal is clearly much older and more distinguishable out of the three. That's assuming there are only three.

  2. #2
    Astonishing Member Dark_Tzitzimine's Avatar
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    On the other hand, do you really want to consider the possibility that she couldn't tell at least two different men apart simply because they looked similar despite being in love with one of them?

  3. #3
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Ugh...retconned timeline... okay. When did she talk to Joker the first time, in all continuity?
    I only know she's Harley in BTAS during Dick's high school days.
    In New 52, she debuted the same year as Dick, which is when he was 16, 2 years before Jason became Robin, and barring some change of continuity I don't know, that remains the same in Rebirth.
    In Batman 66, she also first appeared, as a psychiatrist, when Dick is in high school
    I don't know about the Post Crisis.

    So that's overall pretty consistent. If we combine them all, in any continuity she started during Dick's high school days and therefore predated Jason Todd as Robin, A Death in The Family, and the Joker Fish scenario, since that last one happened when Dick already went to college.

    Therefore she fell in love with The Clown, who started in the 40s-50s when Dick was in middle to high school.

    The next question is, who abused her. The Comedian definitely did, since that's The Joker from The Killing Joke onwards, but The Clown isn't exactly innocent either. It was The Clown who enacts the Joker Fish and Five Ways of Joker's Revenge scenario and that was The Joker adapted to the animated series.

    So both did, but with different degrees. The Clown slaps and throws her around but also the one that has some feelings for Harley that he only realized when Harley leaves.

    Although honestly, since the BTAS Joker is inspired by The Clown and in the comics, Harley only appeared after The Comedian, I'm inclined to say she's always been with The Comedian. Her comic version is also more violent than her BTAS counterpart. Do they ever do a flashback of Harley partnering with The Joker with the tone of the 40s to 70s that is not Batman 66?
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 10-10-2020 at 10:46 PM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Ugh...retconned timeline... okay. When did she talk to Joker the first time, in all continuity?
    I only know she's Harley in BTAS during Dick's high school days.
    In New 52, she debuted the same year as Dick, which is when he was 16, 2 years before Jason became Robin, and barring some change of continuity I don't know, that remains the same in Rebirth.
    In Batman 66, she also first appeared, as a psychiatrist, when Dick is in high school
    I don't know about the Post Crisis.

    So that's overall pretty consistent. If we combine them all, in any continuity she started during Dick's high school days and therefore predated Jason Todd as Robin, A Death in The Family, and the Joker Fish scenario, since that last one happened when Dick already went to college.

    Therefore she fell in love with The Clown, who started in the 40s-50s when Dick was in middle to high school.

    The next question is, who abused her. The Comedian definitely did, since that's The Joker from The Killing Joke onwards, but The Clown isn't exactly innocent either. It was The Clown who enacts the Joker Fish and Five Ways of Joker's Revenge scenario and that was The Joker adapted to the animated series.

    So both did, but with different degrees. The Clown slaps and throws her around but also the one that has some feelings for Harley that he only realized when Harley leaves.

    Although honestly, since the BTAS Joker is inspired by The Clown and in the comics, Harley only appeared after The Comedian, I'm inclined to say she's always been with The Comedian. Her comic version is also more violent than her BTAS counterpart. Do they ever do a flashback of Harley partnering with The Joker with the tone of the 40s to 70s that is not Batman 66?
    First off, BTAS is set during Dick's college years, not high school. Bruce has been Batman for around 10 years on the show, and Dick's parents died around 9 years ago. Not that we can take BTAS as a guide to figuring out Harley Quinn's chronology in comic-book continuity.

    Harley was introduced in the comics in the 90's, at a time when Tim Drake was Robin. But I'm not sure if her origin story was retroactively applied to earlier in the timeline or not. Its possible that it was in the New 52, but its the first I'm hearing of it.

    The problem is that the Clown and the Comedian seemed to have operated simultaneously, or at any rate, the Clown yielded the floor to the Comedian and then took it back. The Clown, as you rightly pointed out, seems to be the more 'classic' Joker, while the Comedian is the Joker from TKJ. But...the Clown also seems to be the Joker who killed Jason.

    If we assume that the Clown was the Joker during the 90's, then I guess he's the one Harley was with. But if her origin story is backdated to earlier in the timeline, then it could be the Comedian. I don't think it was the Criminal though.

    Also, I feel that this story is set in a pre-New 52 timeline, so we can't take New 52 history as a reference point for anything.

  5. #5
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    Well Joker being a classically trained stage performance type guy, Harley dating two different Jokers smacks of just being a rip-off of Borden in The Prestige.

    When frankly Joker seems more of an Angier.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    I don't know about the Post Crisis.
    She appears first during No Mans Land, and she iirc split from the Joker pretty fast.

  7. #7
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    She appears first during No Mans Land, and she iirc split from the Joker pretty fast.
    Right. I know in one origin story (though can't recall which), Jeremiah Arkham was at Arkham when she started. He was introduced in 1992.

    I'm not really into the 3 Jokers idea, to say the least, but it is what it is, and figuring out what that means for other characters can sometimes be a fun pursuit.

  8. #8
    Spectacular Member Bad Witch's Avatar
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    Not sure why this needed it's own thread. All of this could of went in either of the other multiple three jokers threads

  9. #9
    Extraordinary Member sifighter's Avatar
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    I assume that Harley does have some mental stability issues (not to the level of joker but still) and that maybe she just didn’t notice at the time because a joker loved her
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  10. #10
    Amazing Member Aramis's Avatar
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    I mean, I guess she could notice... This is the thing. We know they are physically different. We can tell them apart (especially the Criminal, who is clearly a very different guy to the one we've seen in the last decades). But I would've liked if in-universe, they are completely identical. Like, there's really no way to tell them apart, and that's why they have cheated Batman and everyone else, and just the audience is able to tell them apart.
    But then, we see Jason and Babs clearly noticing that the guy in the chair is different to other Jokers, because "his thinner". They notice right at the beginning. From that poin onwards, it becomes absurd that Bruce and the others don't notice the differences, and that includes Harley, as crazy as she is.

  11. #11
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Right. I know in one origin story (though can't recall which), Jeremiah Arkham was at Arkham when she started. He was introduced in 1992.

    I'm not really into the 3 Jokers idea, to say the least, but it is what it is, and figuring out what that means for other characters can sometimes be a fun pursuit.
    What's the earliest time Jeremiah started working in Arkham? I think I know his first appearance, it was when he built a new Arkham that looks like a labyrinth, but is there an earlier timeline for him?

  12. #12
    Fantastic Member Castiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramis View Post
    I mean, I guess she could notice... This is the thing. We know they are physically different. We can tell them apart (especially the Criminal, who is clearly a very different guy to the one we've seen in the last decades). But I would've liked if in-universe, they are completely identical. Like, there's really no way to tell them apart, and that's why they have cheated Batman and everyone else, and just the audience is able to tell them apart.
    But then, we see Jason and Babs clearly noticing that the guy in the chair is different to other Jokers, because "his thinner". They notice right at the beginning. From that poin onwards, it becomes absurd that Bruce and the others don't notice the differences, and that includes Harley, as crazy as she is.
    Well Harley isn't the sharpest tool in the shed it's a bit of a running gag that she's not very smart.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    What's the earliest time Jeremiah started working in Arkham? I think I know his first appearance, it was when he built a new Arkham that looks like a labyrinth, but is there an earlier timeline for him?
    He was initially introduced in "The Last Arkham" from Shadow of the Bat #1-4, taking place shortly before Knightfall, preceded as Arkham's director by Charles Cavendish (Arkham Asylum GN) and Dr. Chilton (Secret Origins Special). However, later stories would retcon that Jeremiah was present at the asylum well before this. Gotham Knights #12 has him as director during the events of The Killing Joke; Batman and Superman: World's Finest #3 places him in "Year Three", and the ambiguously early Gotham After Midnight references him as well. In The New 52, Harley Quinn was active during Dick's days as Robin. And in current continuity, as revealed in Paul Dini's Arkham Knight story in Detective Comics, Jeremiah Arkham was present at the asylum during a very early period in Batman's career.

    With all that being said, I think it is an absolute fool's errand to try to retroactively assign Three Jokers logic to past continuity. I normally hate it when people say "just don't think about it" but... truly, it's best to just not think about it.

    EDIT: Meant to say Peter Tomasi's Arkham Knight story, not Paul Dini.
    Last edited by PurpleGlovez; 10-15-2020 at 02:18 PM.

  14. #14
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    With all that being said, I think it is an absolute fool's errand to try to retroactively assign Three Jokers logic to past continuity. I normally hate it when people say "just don't think about it" but... truly, it's best to just not think about it.
    I feel that way about too much of DC's work lately. Some say if it's a good story, it doesn't matter. But for me it can't be a good story if it doesn't make sense. Not talking 3J particularly, here, just stories in general.

  15. #15
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleGlovez View Post
    He was initially introduced in "The Last Arkham" from Shadow of the Bat #1-4, taking place shortly before Knightfall, preceded as Arkham's director by Charles Cavendish (Arkham Asylum GN) and Dr. Chilton (Secret Origins Special). However, later stories would retcon that Jeremiah was present at the asylum well before this. Gotham Knights #12 has him as director during the events of The Killing Joke; Batman and Superman: World's Finest #3 places him in "Year Three", and the ambiguously early Gotham After Midnight references him as well. In The New 52, Harley Quinn was active during Dick's days as Robin. And in current continuity, as revealed in Paul Dini's Arkham Knight story in Detective Comics, Jeremiah Arkham was present at the asylum during a very early period in Batman's career.

    With all that being said, I think it is an absolute fool's errand to try to retroactively assign Three Jokers logic to past continuity. I normally hate it when people say "just don't think about it" but... truly, it's best to just not think about it.
    Okay, I'll median all that and place it in Dick's late teens again. Now it's the same with Harley's debut and the time of The Clown

    Wait, Chilton? Any relation to Joe Chill?

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