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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by federicodettofred View Post
    Everyone has their opinions and I never used the word "slut" (it makes no sense in this context), but that was pure character assassination. "a mistake on her part"? Are you guys serious right now? Having sex with Norman Osborn and giving birth to twins in another country is a mistake. Okay then. Let's say, please, that JMS created a story for pathetic shock factor. It doesn't "develop" her character, it shits on her character and the importance of her in Spider-Man history. And defending this story is absurd.
    The story is flawed, but Gwen's character wasn't assassinated by it. Shits on her? A little. Peter's character has had that treatment once in a while - he hit MJ in the comics, there have been other misdeeds. Bad comics stories happen, I just don't think its as extremely bad as you do. I respect your opinion, though, and get it.
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    The story is flawed, but Gwen's character wasn't assassinated by it. Shits on her? A little. Peter's character has had that treatment once in a while - he hit MJ in the comics, there have been other misdeeds. Bad comics stories happen, I just don't think its as extremely bad as you do. I respect your opinion, though, and get it.
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  3. #78
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    It didn';t come up during clone conspirarcy, making it non canon to me

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    The story is flawed, but Gwen's character wasn't assassinated by it. Shits on her? A little. Peter's character has had that treatment once in a while - he hit MJ in the comics, there have been other misdeeds. Bad comics stories happen, I just don't think its as extremely bad as you do. I respect your opinion, though, and get it.
    I am certainly one who thinks Sins Past sucks, but the reality is Spencer is using it so that story is not being erased. You can say the same for a number of other bad stories: OMD, Silk and maybe even The Other ( Morlun is bring hinted at). In fact if you add Jackal’s appearance in Ghost Spider ( reminding me of Clone Saga) every rotten story with the exception of Year One is being used, which means like it or not, they are all canon.
    Last edited by NC_Yankee; 10-28-2020 at 02:11 PM.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    I am certainly one who thinks Sins Past sucks, but the reality is Spencer is using it so that story is not being erased. You can say the same for a number of other bad stories: OMD, Silk and maybe even The Other ( Morlun is bring hinted at). In fact if you add Jackal’s appearance in Ghost Spider ( reminding me of Clone Saga) every rotten story with the exception of Year One is being used, which means like it or not, they are all canon.
    Spencer didn't use it, tho. Norman Osborn simply refers to "happy times" and it could be a sinister reference to him killing her. He's a psycho and a murderer, so what he says make little sense.
    Anyway, Sins Past is different from OMD, Silk and other stories. Those are bad ones that people laugh about (except OMD, but it's too important and you can't ignore that), Sins Past is just something that even writers want to forget. Dan Slott literally said "I will never deal with that story". It's almost the Chris Benoit of Marvel, something most people know but nobody will address because it brings bad memories and disgust.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by federicodettofred View Post
    Spencer didn't use it, tho. Norman Osborn simply refers to "happy times" and it could be a sinister reference to him killing her. He's a psycho and a murderer, so what he says make little sense.
    Anyway, Sins Past is different from OMD, Silk and other stories. Those are bad ones that people laugh about (except OMD, but it's too important and you can't ignore that), Sins Past is just something that even writers want to forget. Dan Slott literally said "I will never deal with that story". It's almost the Chris Benoit of Marvel, something most people know but nobody will address because it brings bad memories and disgust.
    When Osborn used the word “Smell” it made me ( and I am sure most people who are familiar with Sins Past and ASM 121) think of Sins Past NOT ASM 121. To be honest the only bad story I do not expect to be redone OR referred to ( unless it occurs in Amazing 1001 ( or something like that) is Chapter One. As for OMD, it is actually less important then Silk and Clone Saga. Why? Cindy ( especially) and Ben Reilly have become important characters in Marvel and are going nowhere, while one day OMD ( God willing), OMD gets the Chapter One treatment.

  7. #82
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    I think retconning, while not impossible, could prove to be messy.
    Personally, if they did retcon it, I'd rather see Norman also getting retconned, such as the one we've been following since the Clone Saga has in fact been a clone (I prefer to have him stay dead).

    But that's just me.
    Then you could have an issue with Norman going through an existential crises where he learns he is a clone and his whole existence has been one big lie (that way you get to retcon two infamous stories at once and call it something silly like "The Clone Finale" or "The Final Clone" or something like that.

  8. #83
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    Looks like a retcon would not be enough for JMS:
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    Last edited by Ozymandias; 01-25-2021 at 01:55 AM.

  9. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFJamie94 View Post
    I'd rather see Norman also getting retconned, such as the one we've been following since the Clone Saga has in fact been a clone (I prefer to have him stay dead).

    But that's just me.
    Then you could have an issue with Norman going through an existential crises where he learns he is a clone and his whole existence has been one big lie (that way you get to retcon two infamous stories at once and call it something silly like "The Clone Finale" or "The Final Clone" or something like that.
    That's a good idea, we'll retcon Norman's death like they retconned May's death; the Norman who died in the warehouse was a genetically manipulated stand in after the real Norman killed Gwen and escaped to Paris.
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  10. #85
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    I'm with you about erasing Sins Past from continuity, but it's nost so easy to undo a story after they already published it. Continuity must be respected so the story won't turn into a complete nonsense. If you ask me, I would erase Sins Past from continuity and restore the Spider-Marriage with MJ.

    However, the story MIGHT have worked if Gabriel and Sarah were actually created artificially (like the clones), using a combination of Peter and Gwen's DNA, it would appear they are their children. Technically, they would be Peter and Gwen's kids, but at the same time, they wouldn't be.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Force League Unlimited View Post
    That's a good idea, we'll retcon Norman's death like they retconned May's death; the Norman who died in the warehouse was a genetically manipulated stand in after the real Norman killed Gwen and escaped to Paris.
    We should see a side issue where Norman is hosting additions for actors that he hires for these (genetically modified) roles. I could only wonder what material he gives them, also I wonder why they go along with it so long to the point of dying (May).

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFJamie94 View Post
    I think retconning, while not impossible, could prove to be messy.
    Personally, if they did retcon it, I'd rather see Norman also getting retconned, such as the one we've been following since the Clone Saga has in fact been a clone (I prefer to have him stay dead).

    But that's just me.
    Then you could have an issue with Norman going through an existential crises where he learns he is a clone and his whole existence has been one big lie (that way you get to retcon two infamous stories at once and call it something silly like "The Clone Finale" or "The Final Clone" or something like that.
    Sins Past is never going away. Why? Think of this quote by Ronald Reagan: “Any publicity ( even bad publicity) is better then no publicity.” Are there over 1,000 Spider-Man comics better then Sins Past? Of course there are. But how many of those issues get discussed as much as Sins Past? 10 maybe 20? The same concept applies to the Clone Saga and OMD/BND which is why they are not only being erased, but returning in Miles comic.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    Sins Past is never going away. Why? Think of this quote by Ronald Reagan: “Any publicity ( even bad publicity) is better then no publicity.” Are there over 1,000 Spider-Man comics better then Sins Past? Of course there are. But how many of those issues get discussed as much as Sins Past? 10 maybe 20? The same concept applies to the Clone Saga and OMD/BND which is why they are not only being erased, but returning in Miles comic.
    The clone saga was more of a concept that could have worked on paper but fell flat because of a lack of direction.
    We've seen better versions of the Clone Saga since, in Ultimate Spider-man and in the original 70's story arc.
    I can see why writers would want to take that concept and improve upon it. Although I would like to see newer ideas come from the writers, I hear that Miles is a good title and I have a lot of trust in the writer to do so.

    An angry fan is an engaged fan, that is true, but I feel there's a difference between enraging your fanbase and simply pissing them off. There's a lot that can be done with the later and we've seen writers or other mediums use that to their advantage, comics are hard to do in that case because a lot of the time, the comics go too far. The only one I've seen that actually works was the original Civil War, and that was because it's whole thing was to split the fanbase in a way where it was your own views that are for debate, not the quality of the story.
    (I also think Secret Empire did a good job of this as well, I like that story and concept a lot and I feel time will be kinder to it).

    To be honest, Sins past is kind of forgotten. It rarely gets mentioned outside of vague bits of dialogue which if you don't know, won't affect your enjoyment of it.
    In fact Norman's recent jab at Gwen could just as easily be associated with him killing 616 Gwen.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFJamie94 View Post
    The clone saga was more of a concept that could have worked on paper but fell flat because of a lack of direction.
    We've seen better versions of the Clone Saga since, in Ultimate Spider-man and in the original 70's story arc.
    I can see why writers would want to take that concept and improve upon it. Although I would like to see newer ideas come from the writers, I hear that Miles is a good title and I have a lot of trust in the writer to do so.

    An angry fan is an engaged fan, that is true, but I feel there's a difference between enraging your fanbase and simply pissing them off. There's a lot that can be done with the later and we've seen writers or other mediums use that to their advantage, comics are hard to do in that case because a lot of the time, the comics go too far. The only one I've seen that actually works was the original Civil War, and that was because it's whole thing was to split the fanbase in a way where it was your own views that are for debate, not the quality of the story.
    (I also think Secret Empire did a good job of this as well, I like that story and concept a lot and I feel time will be kinder to it).

    To be honest, Sins past is kind of forgotten. It rarely gets mentioned outside of vague bits of dialogue which if you don't know, won't affect your enjoyment of it.
    In fact Norman's recent jab at Gwen could just as easily be associated with him killing 616 Gwen.
    Sins Past has not been forgotten about trust me. I can say with near certainty that for Original Gwen shipper, it is their most hated issue ( it makes Bottom 10 for me). I will say this: The casual fan could easily think ASM 121, when noting Norman’s dig at Gwen, but the word “Smell” immediately makes the hard core fan think of Sins Past. I could even see some writer bringing back the Stacy Twins because he ( or she) believes they can improve upon Sins Past.
    Last edited by NC_Yankee; 01-25-2021 at 01:23 PM.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    Sins Past has not been forgotten about trust me. I can say with near certainty that for Original Gwen shipper, it is their most hated issue ( it makes Bottom 10 for me). I will say this: The casual fan could easily think ASM 121, when noting Norman’s dig at Gwen, but the word “Smell” immediately makes the hard core fan think of Sins Past. I could even see some writer bringing back the Stacy Twins because he ( or she) believes they can improve upon Sins Past.
    What I mean by forgotten about is that it's made no impact on Spider-man canon.
    It never gets brought up outside of a vague reference and the children have only appeared once since, and that was during the Dark Reign era.
    Most Spider-man fans post 2010 probably don't even realise it exists and essentially you can read most Spider-man works without ever touching Sins Past, as I stated it made no impact.

    Really the only People who talk about it are folks like us, who did read it and thought it sucked.
    I mean I'm someone who personally think it takes away from the impact of Gwen's death, but I've since just accepted that even through it's canon, it'll be lost to time as an oddity.

    It's not anywhere near as damaging as One More Day and it is not as much of a hassle as the Clone Saga.

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