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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Gwen did have serious issues. Her mother died when she was very young and her dad had just been killed. She was, by any standard, screwed up in the head.

    I do agree with JMS, and am not ashamed of it. There is a double standard for those who say that Gwen was totally in the wrong because she should have remained faithful, even if she and Peter were broken up, which they were. It was a mistake on her part and that is part of the Sin's Past story. People who think Gwen is now a slut because of that story should rethink how they view women.
    Everyone has their opinions and I never used the word "slut" (it makes no sense in this context), but that was pure character assassination. "a mistake on her part"? Are you guys serious right now? Having sex with Norman Osborn and giving birth to twins in another country is a mistake. Okay then. Let's say, please, that JMS created a story for pathetic shock factor. It doesn't "develop" her character, it shits on her character and the importance of her in Spider-Man history. And defending this story is absurd.

  2. #62
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    I hear you, brother. It's clear JMS didn't put his heart in the story as published, as the fact that it doesn't even fit the timeline indicates. Still, there will be those who like the character assassination, so there will always be those who like it.

  3. #63
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    JMS original plan was for the kids to be Peter's but he was overruled by editors to be Norman's. This escalated tension between him and editorial so by OMD came to be, someone else wrote that (Quesada?) but he was given the byline. Just because a story is published isn't the whole truth in how comics are made.

    This is a tweet from JMS himself.

    https://twitter.com/straczynski/stat...424064?lang=en

    Understand: that wasn't the original story. Peter was going to be the father of Gwen's kids. Marvel said "That ages Peter, so let's make it Norman Osborn's instead, the fans will go nuts." I didnt quiet realize what they meant when they said that...

  4. #64
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    Now that I think about it, if they were Peter’s kids, Marvel wouldn’t be able to get rid of them. That’s probably what Marvel was worried about.

  5. #65
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Ultimately, it would have been better not to do the story at all. It wouldn't have worked to give Peter artificially aged kids.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hcmarvel View Post
    How would you retcon it for starters? Gwen told MJ about it contemporaneously. We are shown what happened in flashback. It's a tricky one to work around unless you actually OMD it away somehow.
    That “Gwen” wasn’t actually Gwen... I know what you’re thinking “clone?” In reality she was actually a genetically modified actress who told that to MJ as well as instructed her to keep it a secret, so it could destabilize Peter’s self esteem...

    That’s that good old Norman Osborn brand of bs.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    That “Gwen” wasn’t actually Gwen... I know what you’re thinking “clone?” In reality she was actually a genetically modified actress who told that to MJ as well as instructed her to keep it a secret, so it could destabilize Peter’s self esteem...

    That’s that good old Norman Osborn brand of bs.
    Urgh, that fucking actress that died instead of aunt May... I'd be pissed right now if I didn't randomly remember about it a few days ago lol.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    Now that I think about it, if they were Peter’s kids, Marvel wouldn’t be able to get rid of them. That’s probably what Marvel was worried about.
    They've done that in the past. After May Parker was born during the Clone Saga, a nurse faked her death, she was abducted by Norman and never seen again.


  9. #69
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    I've always thought that if it wasn't Peter's children, Harry would have been the prime candidate for the father. MJ had broken up with Harry, Harry overdosed, and Peter and Gwen were having issues after her father's death. It's believable that the two could have had an intimate (regrettable) moment given their friendship. But Gwen actually giving birth just doesn't work within the timeline. So I would have done something along the lines of: Gwen discovers she is pregnant by Harry, tells Harry who tells his father, tries to have (or considers having) an abortion, Norman goes nuts over Gwen trying to "kill" his grandchild, inadvertently kills them himself by killing Gwen, blames Peter, and "creates" them himself using Gwen/Osborn DNA. That's something that's a bit more plausible. But then Harry and Gwen (and possibly MJ) would have looked really terrible for keeping that from Peter.

    Even if they were Peter's children, it's just not a story that works on a conceptual level. It muddles the timeline too much, and doesn't really add anything worthwhile to any of the characters involved.
    Last edited by Spider-Tiger; 10-18-2020 at 08:56 AM.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Tiger View Post
    I've always thought that if it wasn't Peter's children, Harry would have been the prime candidate for the father. MJ had broken up with Harry, Harry overdosed, and Peter and Gwen were having issues after her father's death. It's believable that the two could have had an intimate (regrettable) moment given their friendship. But Gwen actually giving birth just doesn't work within the timeline. So I would have done something along the lines of: Gwen discovers she is pregnant by Harry, tells Harry who tells his father, tries to have (or considers having) an abortion, Norman goes nuts over Gwen trying to "kill" his grandchild, inadvertently kills them himself by killing Gwen, blames Peter, and "creates" them himself using Gwen/Osborn DNA. That's something that's a bit more plausible. But then Harry and Gwen (and possibly MJ) would have looked really terrible for keeping that from Peter.

    Even if they were Peter's children, it's just not a story that works on a conceptual level. It muddles the timeline too much, and doesn't really add anything worthwhile to any of the characters involved.
    Sins Past II: Sins Paster.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Sins Past II: Sins Paster.
    lol It's a stretch to try and make the concept of "adult Gwen- Goblin children" work, not a suggested retcon to the existing story. But the whole thing just doesn't work from a conceptual standpoint.

    More on topic, in the end what's done is done, and it is probably better left untouched.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Tiger View Post
    I've always thought that if it wasn't Peter's children, Harry would have been the prime candidate for the father. MJ had broken up with Harry, Harry overdosed, and Peter and Gwen were having issues after her father's death. It's believable that the two could have had an intimate (regrettable) moment given their friendship. But Gwen actually giving birth just doesn't work within the timeline. So I would have done something along the lines of: Gwen discovers she is pregnant by Harry, tells Harry who tells his father, tries to have (or considers having) an abortion, Norman goes nuts over Gwen trying to "kill" his grandchild, inadvertently kills them himself by killing Gwen, blames Peter, and "creates" them himself using Gwen/Osborn DNA. That's something that's a bit more plausible. But then Harry and Gwen (and possibly MJ) would have looked really terrible for keeping that from Peter.

    Even if they were Peter's children, it's just not a story that works on a conceptual level. It muddles the timeline too much, and doesn't really add anything worthwhile to any of the characters involved.
    Seems a bit convoluted.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Seems a bit convoluted.
    And yet less convoluted than Norman.

    Interestingly, this whole thing would make the most sense if it was Jackal.

  14. #74
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    I think Marvel should just move on from this all together and just never touch it again. As a fan just pretend it never happened and just move on. I will never understand the reasoning behind Marvel going through with this. OMD I can give JMS a pass on because he was backed into a corner on that one. He doesn’t get that pass in regards to Sins past however. That was just a terrible idea on his part that served no purpose whatsoever.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by RD155 View Post
    I think Marvel should just move on from this all together and just never touch it again.
    Marvel isn't a monolithic entity, it's composed of a lot of people constantly in flux. As long as there's the option, it will be referenced by someone with the inclination to do so.

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