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  1. #16
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    It's very interesting that he's talking about all of this in an official Marvel book (it's listed as a paperback on Amazon but it's the size of a standard floppy.) You don't usually see this level of honesty in what is essentially promotional material.
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonEchidna View Post
    See I wonder now if they didn't torpedo Peter's bond with Tony the way they did if detractors would've been warmer receiving to how Peter is written in the MCU?
    Building a bond between Peter and Tony in general is very hard to do. They are not likely to agree on a lot of things just based on their beliefs. Cap and Tony still clash a lot even though they have more of a history together.

    Even prior to the events of Civil War, Tony's interest in Peter was kinda one-sided (not that different from Norman's interest in him, honestly). Most of their relationship comprised of Peter sassing him while Tony played the straight man (kinda the reverse of what the MCU did). I'm not sure if it could have evolved past that just based on who these guys are as people.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 10-17-2020 at 10:41 AM.

  3. #18
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Building a bond between Peter and Tony in general is very hard to do. They are not likely to agree on a lot of things just based on their beliefs. Cap and Tony still clash a lot even though they have more of a history together.

    Even prior to the events of Civil War, Tony's interest in Peter was kinda one-sided (not that different from Norman's interest in him, honestly). Most of their relationship comprised of Peter sassing him while Tony played the straight man (kinda the reverse of what the MCU did). I'm not sure if it could have evolved past that just based on who these guys are as people.
    Hmm, maybe. From what I remember, Peter felt a certain sense of personal obligation since Tony put him, Mary Jane, and Aunt May up in Stark Tower after a vengeful and superpowered former classmate of Peter's destroyed their home and then equipped him with the Iron Spider Armor after he died and revived in The Other. Of course, given what happened in Civil War, that sense of personal obligation ultimately didn't outweigh Peter's own conscience and morals, even if it did help push him to reveal his identity to the public in support of the SHRA.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  4. #19
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Building a bond between Peter and Tony in general is very hard to do. They are not likely to agree on a lot of things just based on their beliefs. Cap and Tony still clash a lot even though they have more of a history together.

    Even prior to the events of Civil War, Tony's interest in Peter was kinda one-sided (not that different from Norman's interest in him, honestly). Most of their relationship comprised of Peter sassing him while Tony played the straight man (kinda the reverse of what the MCU did). I'm not sure if it could have evolved past that just based on who these guys are as people.
    It could evolve into a nonsensical relationship, kinda like how Peter's friendship with Wolverine relies on Peter putting up with Wolverine being a killer, which he shouldn't ever do lol.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    It could evolve into a nonsensical relationship, kinda like how Peter's friendship with Wolverine relies on Peter putting up with Wolverine being a killer, which he shouldn't ever do lol.
    A.K.A. the problem with most casts of characters in general.

    "Why does the Scooby Gang put up with Spike's antic?""Because the plot requires them to of course!"

    It's honestly the reason why Peter working with Norman even semi-willingly infuriates me. It more comes off as plot than a genuine need.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    It could evolve into a nonsensical relationship, kinda like how Peter's friendship with Wolverine relies on Peter putting up with Wolverine being a killer, which he shouldn't ever do lol.
    Or Deadpool, for that matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    A.K.A. the problem with most casts of characters in general.

    "Why does the Scooby Gang put up with Spike's antic?""Because the plot requires them to of course!"

    It's honestly the reason why Peter working with Norman even semi-willingly infuriates me. It more comes off as plot than a genuine need.
    I was personally happy when Peter fed Norman to Sin-Eater, even if that backfired horribly on him.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  7. #22
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    A.K.A. the problem with most casts of characters in general.

    "Why does the Scooby Gang put up with Spike's antic?""Because the plot requires them to of course!"

    It's honestly the reason why Peter working with Norman even semi-willingly infuriates me. It more comes off as plot than a genuine need.
    At the very least, Peter doesn't want to do it, he would rather Norman didn't get his powers back at all, and Norman did end up both helping and getting in the way, it makes sense because, right at that moment, Sin Eater was the bigger threat, and fighting both Norman and Sin Eater would be too much.

    A bad writing version of this would be both of them being happy to fight together lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Or Deadpool, for that matter.
    I think in the Spidey/Deadpool comic, Deadpool was trying to be better, dunno if it stayed like that, but the thought can help.

    Not saying that it doesn't make sense, but even that one is looking less bad than Spidey/Wolverine friendship.

    I was personally happy when Peter fed Norman to Sin-Eater, even if that backfired horribly on him.
    I thought it would backfire on Peter because he half assed when he threw Norman away, 'cause maybe Norman would manage to escape Sin Eater or whatever.

    I'm still wondering if what Peter did is really a bad thing, because so far, it doesn't look like Sin Eater really needed to shoot Norman, 'cause Kindred got his powers and is just possessing everyone, so it looks like a personal beef more than anything.

    Although, when those fog demons showed up, Green Goblin was there, not the only one since Juggernaut was there too, but since Green Goblin also said "Go ahead and kill him (Probably about Norman), he's of no use to me anymore", it means Green Goblin itself is there, wonder if Kindred needed it to possess other people better with it? Maybe some combination of Mr Negative's power of possession with Green Goblin to possess better, or, y'know, just a personal beef that doesn't affect the plot, guess we'll see in the next issues.

  8. #23
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    At the very least, Peter doesn't want to do it, he would rather Norman didn't get his powers back at all, and Norman did end up both helping and getting in the way, it makes sense because, right at that moment, Sin Eater was the bigger threat, and fighting both Norman and Sin Eater would be too much.

    A bad writing version of this would be both of them being happy to fight together lol



    I think in the Spidey/Deadpool comic, Deadpool was trying to be better, dunno if it stayed like that, but the thought can help.

    Not saying that it doesn't make sense, but even that one is looking less bad than Spidey/Wolverine friendship.



    I thought it would backfire on Peter because he half assed when he threw Norman away, 'cause maybe Norman would manage to escape Sin Eater or whatever.

    I'm still wondering if what Peter did is really a bad thing, because so far, it doesn't look like Sin Eater really needed to shoot Norman, 'cause Kindred got his powers and is just possessing everyone, so it looks like a personal beef more than anything.

    Although, when those fog demons showed up, Green Goblin was there, not the only one since Juggernaut was there too, but since Green Goblin also said "Go ahead and kill him (Probably about Norman), he's of no use to me anymore", it means Green Goblin itself is there, wonder if Kindred needed it to possess other people better with it? Maybe some combination of Mr Negative's power of possession with Green Goblin to possess better, or, y'know, just a personal beef that doesn't affect the plot, guess we'll see in the next issues.
    Peter was basically trapped between two devils, he choose the one he knew, thinking that he could handle it, until he reach the breaking point and was like "fe% i can't handle it" *push* lol, but yeah i think that overall it worked and Peter didn't look too bad for it, still wonder what Norman would amount in LR with all this.

    As for Spider-Man/Deadpool, yeah he was trying and also ended killed Peter at the end of the first arc lol (he regreted it thougth and brougth him back).

    Also, if i remember correctly for a long time Logan and Peter were less friends and more like forced teamates in most situations, they really didn't like eacth other until that time travelling mini. But yeah, overall their friendship truly doesn't make sense lol.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Hmm, maybe. From what I remember, Peter felt a certain sense of personal obligation since Tony put him, Mary Jane, and Aunt May up in Stark Tower after a vengeful and superpowered former classmate of Peter's destroyed their home and then equipped him with the Iron Spider Armor after he died and revived in The Other. Of course, given what happened in Civil War, that sense of personal obligation ultimately didn't outweigh Peter's own conscience and morals, even if it did help push him to reveal his identity to the public in support of the SHRA.
    That's my point. It took that much for Peter and Tony to get that close. Spidey's friendships with other heroes (Cap, the FF, etc.) didn't take unusual circumstance after unusual circumstance, favor after favor for them to bond. Spider-Man has had closer friendships than he did with Tony at the start of Civil War, and those other friendships were formed on less solid ground than everything Tony did for Peter. Those are all signs that Peter and Tony just aren't that compatible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    It could evolve into a nonsensical relationship, kinda like how Peter's friendship with Wolverine relies on Peter putting up with Wolverine being a killer, which he shouldn't ever do lol.
    I honestly never bought Spider-Man's friendship with Wolverine either. I buy them respecting one another, but their personalities would clash too often for them to be friends. That too always felt forced just because Spider-Man and Wolverine were the best selling characters, kinda like Spider-Man and Iron Man now.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 10-17-2020 at 09:13 PM.

  10. #25
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    I honestly never bought Spider-Man's friendship with Wolverine either. I buy them respecting one another, but their personalities would clash too often for them to be friends. That too always felt forced just because Spider-Man and Wolverine were the best selling characters, kinda like Spider-Man and Iron Man now.
    Spider-Man does throw Wolverine out the window in JMS' run, which was hilarious.

    Popularity is a blessing and a curse. Because of popularity, Batman wins fights and takes part in stories and genres he has very little business being involved with. Because of popularity, Spider-Man gets involved with characters he has no good reason being involved with, for better and for worse (Wolverine, Deadpool).

  11. #26
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    Peter was basically trapped between two devils, he choose the one he knew, thinking that he could handle it, until he reach the breaking point and was like "fe% i can't handle it" *push* lol, but yeah i think that overall it worked and Peter didn't look too bad for it, still wonder what Norman would amount in LR with all this.
    I'm now wondering what would happen if Norman drank the Goblin juice while he's in this state, would Goblin take over? Would Norman go back to normal? Nothing?

    As for Spider-Man/Deadpool, yeah he was trying and also ended killed Peter at the end of the first arc lol (he regreted it thougth and brougth him back).
    Oh yeah, at the moment they stayed friends after this is when they really started to push it, and their friendship pushed enough as is, Peter got pissed at people for way less lol.

    Also, if i remember correctly for a long time Logan and Peter were less friends and more like forced teamates in most situations, they really didn't like eacth other until that time travelling mini. But yeah, overall their friendship truly doesn't make sense lol.
    They certainly couldn't stand each other before they joined some Avengers team, Spidey vs Wolverine had Logan being mostly condescending towards Spidey for example lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    I honestly never bought Spider-Man's friendship with Wolverine either. I buy them respecting one another, but their personalities would clash too often for them to be friends. That too always felt forced just because Spider-Man and Wolverine were the best selling characters, kinda like Spider-Man and Iron Man now.
    I'm fine with the idea of them respecting each other, but yeah, friendship just can't work, and it's not even because of Wolverine, he ironically respects people more when their ideologies clash with his and had wacky sidekicks, it's just that Peter is too much against killing to be friends with him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Spider-Man does throw Wolverine out the window in JMS' run, which was hilarious.
    "- You know this is supposed to be unbreakable glass, right?

    - I know..."

    Popularity is a blessing and a curse. Because of popularity, Batman wins fights and takes part in stories and genres he has very little business being involved with. Because of popularity, Spider-Man gets involved with characters he has no good reason being involved with, for better and for worse (Wolverine, Deadpool).
    It's surprising how long it took for something like that to happen with Spidey, 'cause while he had a lot of team ups, a whole lot, and even so he avoided weird friendships for a long time.

    Speaking of which, was his friendship with Matt restored? Last I checked they didn't know each other's secret identities anymore, while they didn't stop being friends, they didn't look as close to each other, though in Zdarsky's run I do remember that Spidey told Matt to stop super-heroing because it was fucking over Matt too much, which was nice.

  12. #27
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    I'm now wondering what would happen if Norman drank the Goblin juice while he's in this state, would Goblin take over? Would Norman go back to normal? Nothing?



    Oh yeah, at the moment they stayed friends after this is when they really started to push it, and their friendship pushed enough as is, Peter got pissed at people for way less lol.



    They certainly couldn't stand each other before they joined some Avengers team, Spidey vs Wolverine had Logan being mostly condescending towards Spidey for example lol.



    I'm fine with the idea of them respecting each other, but yeah, friendship just can't work, and it's not even because of Wolverine, he ironically respects people more when their ideologies clash with his and had wacky sidekicks, it's just that Peter is too much against killing to be friends with him.



    "- You know this is supposed to be unbreakable glass, right?

    - I know..."



    It's surprising how long it took for something like that to happen with Spidey, 'cause while he had a lot of team ups, a whole lot, and even so he avoided weird friendships for a long time.

    Speaking of which, was his friendship with Matt restored? Last I checked they didn't know each other's secret identities anymore, while they didn't stop being friends, they didn't look as close to each other, though in Zdarsky's run I do remember that Spidey told Matt to stop super-heroing because it was fucking over Matt too much, which was nice.
    Either Norman would accept that the Goblin is just an extension of his personality and accept what he is (for me Norman is just in a long denial instead of being crazy) or the Goblin would become a nice and well meaning citizen truly dedicated to finish the long standing wars between Goblins and Spiders that had raged since ancient times (also known as "the 60s").

    He appeared again to yell to Matt about going back to DD and Matt pretty much bluffed his way out of the situation when Peter was ready to figth. He is gonna appear in futures issues, with some luck they would know eacth other identities again.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
    Wolverine, Venom Annual # 1 (2018)
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Popularity is a blessing and a curse. Because of popularity, Batman wins fights and takes part in stories and genres he has very little business being involved with. Because of popularity, Spider-Man gets involved with characters he has no good reason being involved with, for better and for worse (Wolverine, Deadpool).
    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    I'm fine with the idea of them respecting each other, but yeah, friendship just can't work, and it's not even because of Wolverine, he ironically respects people more when their ideologies clash with his and had wacky sidekicks, it's just that Peter is too much against killing to be friends with him.
    I mean, I don't really mind Spider-Man and Wolverine interacting often for the same reason I mentioned. The fact their personalities clash is why it's fun to watch them interact.

    It's the "friendship" part that I think is forced.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 10-18-2020 at 07:57 AM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    That's my point. It took that much for Peter and Tony to get that close. Spidey's friendships with other heroes (Cap, the FF, etc.) didn't take unusual circumstance after unusual circumstance, favor after favor for them to bond. Spider-Man has had closer friendships than he did with Tony at the start of Civil War, and those other friendships were formed on less solid ground than everything Tony did for Peter. Those are all signs that Peter and Tony just aren't that compatible.



    I honestly never bought Spider-Man's friendship with Wolverine either. I buy them respecting one another, but their personalities would clash too often for them to be friends. That too always felt forced just because Spider-Man and Wolverine were the best selling characters, kinda like Spider-Man and Iron Man now.
    Yeah, I see your point there, and I was always of the belief that Peter would gravitate more toward Captain America than Iron Man in terms of their overall values and principles, as well as them both growing up poor and bullied in New York, albeit in different eras.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Spider-Man does throw Wolverine out the window in JMS' run, which was hilarious.

    Popularity is a blessing and a curse. Because of popularity, Batman wins fights and takes part in stories and genres he has very little business being involved with. Because of popularity, Spider-Man gets involved with characters he has no good reason being involved with, for better and for worse (Wolverine, Deadpool).
    Yeah, that was a hilarious moment of comeuppance, though my favorite was Aunt May stepping up and laying down the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    I'm now wondering what would happen if Norman drank the Goblin juice while he's in this state, would Goblin take over? Would Norman go back to normal? Nothing?



    Oh yeah, at the moment they stayed friends after this is when they really started to push it, and their friendship pushed enough as is, Peter got pissed at people for way less lol.



    They certainly couldn't stand each other before they joined some Avengers team, Spidey vs Wolverine had Logan being mostly condescending towards Spidey for example lol.



    I'm fine with the idea of them respecting each other, but yeah, friendship just can't work, and it's not even because of Wolverine, he ironically respects people more when their ideologies clash with his and had wacky sidekicks, it's just that Peter is too much against killing to be friends with him.



    "- You know this is supposed to be unbreakable glass, right?

    - I know..."

    It's surprising how long it took for something like that to happen with Spidey, 'cause while he had a lot of team ups, a whole lot, and even so he avoided weird friendships for a long time.

    Speaking of which, was his friendship with Matt restored? Last I checked they didn't know each other's secret identities anymore, while they didn't stop being friends, they didn't look as close to each other, though in Zdarsky's run I do remember that Spidey told Matt to stop super-heroing because it was fucking over Matt too much, which was nice.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    Either Norman would accept that the Goblin is just an extension of his personality and accept what he is (for me Norman is just in a long denial instead of being crazy) or the Goblin would become a nice and well meaning citizen truly dedicated to finish the long standing wars between Goblins and Spiders that had raged since ancient times (also known as "the 60s").

    He appeared again to yell to Matt about going back to DD and Matt pretty much bluffed his way out of the situation when Peter was ready to figth. He is gonna appear in futures issues, with some luck they would know eacth other identities again.
    Starting with issue 23, judging by the cover, and I really hope Spidey and DD at least work things out before DD ends up in jail, as their friendship before they ended up forgetting each other's secret identities was one of my favorite things in the Marvel Universe setting.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  15. #30
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The anti-Tony sentiment really comes from Mark Millar's poorly written CIVIL WAR. If they had written a better version of that, maybe it would work.



    The major reason Bendis' run sold was because it had Spider-Man and Wolverine in it. That's all. So it's chicken-and-egg. Bendis got say on New Avengers because his run was selling welll...well it sold because he asked for Spider-Man and they gave him Spider-Man and JMS was on-board with it and decided to go full hog with it.
    I think a big chunk of the anti-Tony sentiment came from the character's depiction in the Civil War spinoffs, rather than the actual mini-series which was more even-handed. Part of it is that there was no book that showed the pro-registration side to the extent Frontline and JMS/ Garney' Spider-Man showed the anti-registration side.

    As for New Avengers, the creative team mattered. The book would not have sold as well if Chuck Austen had gotten Spider-Man and Wolverine for the team.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

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