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  1. #16
    Incredible Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravin' Ray View Post
    Spidey's. Because of his Bromance with Johnny and ties with the FF.
    Spiderman used to have a broamnce with Wolverine and Nate Grey

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    1. Am I still an average Joe in these worlds? I'm not Spider-Man or one of the X-Men, right? If that's the case, I would rather live in Spider-Man's world because it's overall much safer. There aren't as many superhumans and the ones that exist wouldn't be anywhere near as dangerous.

    2. X-Men has better world building since it's practically an MU within an MU. Spider-Man's world is similar to Batman/Superman/Flash's in the sense it mostly boils down to one city.

    3. Historically Spider-Man has been Marvel's favorite. Even in the post-OMD era, I would say they still favored Spider-Man due to the rights situation with Fox and and how that bled into everything.
    .
    Yeah, I used to hear many crazy stories about the situation with Fox. Apparently Disney once told writers to stop creating new x-men characters to stop Fox from using more characters in films, I don't think that damaged the X-Universe world building that much though because xmen has so many characters that you may not see in a book for years and then they resurface again.

    I think the worst attempt marvel did to hurt the world building of the x-universe because of Fox movie deal was changing the Paternity of Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch and trying to use Inhumans to solely fade x-men out.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    To answer the questions, I'd rather live in Spider-Man's world, but X-Men takes it for overall world-building, though it's no secret that Spider-Man is Marvel's ultimate favorite, as its most profitable and marketable solo character. As for my personal favorite . . . Spider-Man, hands down. I can appreciate the themes the X-Men franchise works with and focuses on, especially in context of what's (been) happening in the real world, but it gets too bleak sometimes.
    I too have this. I'm not sure why, though. I can get giddy reading a dark Batman or Daredevil story. And the X-Men aren't the only IP that I've read that feature a persecuted character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Spiderman used to have a broamnce with Wolverine and Nate Grey



    Yeah, I used to hear many crazy stories about the situation with Fox. Apparently Disney once told writers to stop creating new x-men characters to stop Fox from using more characters in films, I don't think that damaged the X-Universe world building that much though because xmen has so many characters that you may not see in a book for years and then they resurface again.

    I think the worst attempt marvel did to hurt the world building of the x-universe because of Fox movie deal was changing the Paternity of Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch and trying to use Inhumans to solely fade x-men out.
    The X-World is big enough that a decade of no new characters wouldn't hurt it much. It was unfortunate, though.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 10-14-2020 at 12:32 PM.

  3. #18
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    I too have this. I'm not sure why, though. I can get giddy reading a dark Batman or Daredevil story. And the X-Men aren't the only IP that I've read that feature a persecuted character.
    X-Men stories are among the darkest and saddest and most violent parts of the Marvel Universe. There's an edge to the X-Mythos, an overpowering sense of struggle, and with that struggle -- a sense of constant setback, disappointment, heartache, failure -- that doesn't give it the sheen of optimism you find in other Marvel stories.

    That's what made X-Men such a hit for minorities because it wasn't just the high adventure, the blend of genres and so on, it directly spoke to the reality of being marginalized, where just when you think you made progress, it gets reversed and overturned. And it's true to a certain history, look at USA now with a SCOTUS set to reverse advancements for women's freedom and LGBT rights. X-Men speaks to the late 20th Century idea that history is random and scattershot that, pace Dr. King, the arc of history doesn't automatically bend towards justice. That's the hope and that's how things should be, but it doesn't do that as a given. History is full of progress reversed and overturned.

    Most Marvel stories and concepts have an optimistic center that things bend to always:

    -- Fantastic Four will always be living the American Dream no matter how many of their children count Doom as a godfather and so on and so forth.
    -- The Avengers will always be this clubhouse of elite heroes with respect and authority.
    -- The Mighty Thor despite being put through the wringer by Jason Aaron always was gonna end back in Asgard on the Throne.
    -- Spider-Man is a little different...but still he's never gonna get so poor that he'll be chased out of New York like many people in his class and background were forced to, or are forced to. He's never gonna confront real suffering and oppression.

    With the X-Men the default is "saving a world that hates and fears them" as a team, the belief that they will struggle so on and so forth, and in Hickman's run, the reason is they represent the remnants of the organic evolutionary process of the universe against an incipient singularity driven by humanity's tool-harnessing drive to overcome human limitations.

  4. #19
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    X-Men stories are among the darkest and saddest and most violent parts of the Marvel Universe. There's an edge to the X-Mythos, an overpowering sense of struggle, and with that struggle -- a sense of constant setback, disappointment, heartache, failure -- that doesn't give it the sheen of optimism you find in other Marvel stories.

    That's what made X-Men such a hit for minorities because it wasn't just the high adventure, the blend of genres and so on, it directly spoke to the reality of being marginalized, where just when you think you made progress, it gets reversed and overturned. And it's true to a certain history, look at USA now with a SCOTUS set to reverse advancements for women's freedom and LGBT rights. X-Men speaks to the late 20th Century idea that history is random and scattershot that, pace Dr. King, the arc of history doesn't automatically bend towards justice. That's the hope and that's how things should be, but it doesn't do that as a given. History is full of progress reversed and overturned.

    Most Marvel stories and concepts have an optimistic center that things bend to always:

    -- Fantastic Four will always be living the American Dream no matter how many of their children count Doom as a godfather and so on and so forth.
    -- The Avengers will always be this clubhouse of elite heroes with respect and authority.
    -- The Mighty Thor despite being put through the wringer by Jason Aaron always was gonna end back in Asgard on the Throne.
    -- Spider-Man is a little different...but still he's never gonna get so poor that he'll be chased out of New York like many people in his class and background were forced to, or are forced to. He's never gonna confront real suffering and oppression.

    With the X-Men the default is "saving a world that hates and fears them" as a team, the belief that they will struggle so on and so forth, and in Hickman's run, the reason is they represent the remnants of the organic evolutionary process of the universe against an incipient singularity driven by humanity's tool-harnessing drive to overcome human limitations.
    Well, with the X-Men you can argue they become a found family that bonds over their shared issues and circumstances and how they use that overcome persecution, hatred, and genocidal maniacs of both human and Mutant persuasion.

  5. #20
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, with the X-Men you can argue they become a found family that bonds over their shared issues and circumstances and how they use that overcome persecution, hatred, and genocidal maniacs of both human and Mutant persuasion.
    Well you have the melodrama, trauma, constant betrayal that eats the found family from within. Look at the horrible things that has happend to Cyclops and the terrible things he has done to the people he's loved. Cyclops is an orphan, separated from his brother, finds out later Dad is a space-pirate, finds out even later that his mother was raped in captivity. On his own, he's cheated on both his wives, walked out on his kid, became a guerrila leader, broke with Xavier and whacked him. Wolverine has had a horrible hard life, suffering amnesia, torture, and pain. He has violence done to him and he's done violence in turn. He's even killed his evil kid Daken (though Krakoa brought him back).

    Cyclops Wolverine Jean becoming a throuple is about the healthiest and happiest turn they could take with the lives they have led. But who knows how long that arrangement will last.

    John Byrne once said something interesting, it's an example of someone describing what he thinks is a bug but is in fact a feature. He said once that Cyclops was concieved to be the normal standard hero who audiences could relate to. Same with Jean. But under Claremont, the normal characters (Scott, Jean) became extreme, wild, and bizarre with backstories and strange experiences piling on one over the other. Byrne said this was one of the reasons he left the X-Men, it gradually became so variant that there wasn't anyone normal or standard anymore and all were extreme personalities one way or another.

    Byrne saw that as a flaw, but I see that as an accurate reflection on what Claremont brought to the X-Men. These are the Uncanny X-Men, they are meant to challenge your idea of normal, your sense of comfort, your sense of stability, the stuff that defines what you see as your home, your community and so on. It's about change and evolution. That means disruption, that means instability, and so on.

  6. #21
    Incredible Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    X-Men stories are among the darkest and saddest and most violent parts of the Marvel Universe. There's an edge to the X-Mythos, an overpowering sense of struggle, and with that struggle -- a sense of constant setback, disappointment, heartache, failure -- that doesn't give it the sheen of optimism you find in other Marvel stories.

    Pretty much sums up, for me my constant love for Spiderman and Mary Jane as characters and their relationship from an external POV. Scott and Jean have never moved on from the heart break and set back of the dark phoenix saga story, that story will always mess them up as characters and as a couple, marvel will always have it lingering around. wheeas with Spiderman, he did in a convincing fashion find true healing from loosing gwen and moving on with mary jane. in xmen, it is just one heartache and bleak drama more so than none. it may be more appealing to read but it is not the life you would want.

  7. #22
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    You all here raise some good points, especially Revolutionary_Jack on why the X-Men (should) put the "uncanny" in "Uncanny X-Men" and what uniquely drives them compared to the other heroes in the Marvel Universe. As for the old bromance with Nate Grey back in the 90s, I enjoyed that, too, Castle, at least for the idea of Spider-Man trying to impart onto an angry young kid from another dimension possessing (near-)godlike levels of psychic power that "with great power, there must also come great responsibility."
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  8. #23
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Well you have the melodrama, trauma, constant betrayal that eats the found family from within. Look at the horrible things that has happend to Cyclops and the terrible things he has done to the people he's loved. Cyclops is an orphan, separated from his brother, finds out later Dad is a space-pirate, finds out even later that his mother was raped in captivity. On his own, he's cheated on both his wives, walked out on his kid, became a guerrila leader, broke with Xavier and whacked him. Wolverine has had a horrible hard life, suffering amnesia, torture, and pain. He has violence done to him and he's done violence in turn. He's even killed his evil kid Daken (though Krakoa brought him back).

    Cyclops Wolverine Jean becoming a throuple is about the healthiest and happiest turn they could take with the lives they have led. But who knows how long that arrangement will last.

    John Byrne once said something interesting, it's an example of someone describing what he thinks is a bug but is in fact a feature. He said once that Cyclops was concieved to be the normal standard hero who audiences could relate to. Same with Jean. But under Claremont, the normal characters (Scott, Jean) became extreme, wild, and bizarre with backstories and strange experiences piling on one over the other. Byrne said this was one of the reasons he left the X-Men, it gradually became so variant that there wasn't anyone normal or standard anymore and all were extreme personalities one way or another.

    Byrne saw that as a flaw, but I see that as an accurate reflection on what Claremont brought to the X-Men. These are the Uncanny X-Men, they are meant to challenge your idea of normal, your sense of comfort, your sense of stability, the stuff that defines what you see as your home, your community and so on. It's about change and evolution. That means disruption, that means instability, and so on.
    Well, it's a soap opera, so you have a lot of character drama.

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