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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member Vortex85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzika_Sowa View Post
    The teasing never ends.They had o good opportunity to retcon / resolve / acknowledge OMD with this story, and it seems they had chosen another direction.

    A wasted opportunity in my opinion. But hey, the story is still good, even with the reveal that we got.


    I wonder if Norman will stay cleansed for a bit. I would like to see some stories with him becoming sane. I also wonder if Kindred will resurrect a certain uncle from the grave.

    Anyway, I still wonder how Kindred can be dead, if he is alive at the same time.
    But how do we know, it's the first issue of an 11 part arc and it may not even be the last one we get on this? Like what is the explination of Kindred's powers to resurrect dead people? How did he get these demonic magical abililties? What is Peter's sin that he "bured so deep he barely remembers." There is all kinds of mystery left on this so who is to say what direction it will go?

  2. #17
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex85 View Post
    One more thing about the reveal. The reveal in this issue is stated by Norman.

    Now, back some issues ago Kindred says something to the effect: "Norman thinks he knows who I am. What I am. ..." Why would Kindred use the words THINKS. Maybe I'm reading too much into it but I wonder if we are being mislead here and Kindred is going to end up being someone different. I highly doubt it. Like 90% sure it's the person in this issue but there is a slim chance given Kindred saying that in a previous issue.
    I think it's because Norman has a history of making wrong assumptions about who Harry is/should be, so Kindred is mentioning that Norman is doing that, again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex85 View Post
    Are we allowed to post anything on this now that it's out and comic stores are open?

    Anyway, besides the big reveal I just wanted to mention the on the nose reference to One More Day by Doctor Strange to Peter? Peter did not literally make a deal with a demonic entity throwing Osborn off the vehicle, but he did literally do it in OMD. I thought that was really a twist of words that was on purpose.

    Thoughts?
    I think what Strange meant is Peter throwing Norman out of the submarine, 'cause Peter knows that there's some demonic **** going on with Sin Eater, and yet, Peter decided to throw him off the sub to let Sin Eater solve the whole Norman thing, while thinking that was the right thing to do, it may not be a literal deal with the devil, but in that situation, in a way, he pretty much did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dzika_Sowa View Post
    I wonder if Norman will stay cleansed for a bit. I would like to see some stories with him becoming sane.
    I'm not sure how "sane" he is right now, 'cause as Peter pointed out in previous issues, the "cleansed" people are acting a lot like Carter was back when he returned and was feeling guilty for his crimes, so it sounds like this is some sort of brainwashing where the "cleansed" people are getting his personality traits, in other words, Norman has parts of Carter's personality

    I also wonder if Kindred will resurrect a certain uncle from the grave.
    Possible, he does talk about how "There's no better feeling in this life than being surrounded by those you love". However, Harry seems to be limiting it around the people him and Peter knew, so maybe not uncle Ben.

    Anyway, I still wonder how Kindred can be dead, if he is alive at the same time.
    I think Harry either was just playing along until he got sick of it, or he erased his memories for a while to be able to fool everyone, or that is a clone, but who knows.

    Also, in the other threads I mentioned that maybe the sin Peter forgot is Harry's own death, well, turns out Peter still remembers it, re-read #850, and it's referenced there:


  3. #18
    Amazing Member Junco's Avatar
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    I hope it is Harry for real, but Norman just said "my son," which is more open to interpretation.

  4. #19
    Astonishing Member Vortex85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junco View Post
    I hope it is Harry for real, but Norman just said "my son," which is more open to interpretation.
    There is a picture of Harry as a reflection, you can tell by the haircut it's Harry, and in the editor notes advertising the Last Remains issue checklist they explcitly say Harry Osborn as the reveal.

    Can I just say I am so glad it wasn't Gwen, or Peter pre-OMD because I personally thought both of those options would have been horrible and I would have hated both.
    If Gwen - can they just leave her/keep her dead, and let Spider-Gwen breath?
    If Peter - clone saga level bad where the Peter you've read for more than a decade isn't the true Peter.
    Last edited by Vortex85; 10-14-2020 at 12:48 PM.

  5. #20
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junco View Post
    I hope it is Harry for real, but Norman just said "my son," which is more open to interpretation.
    I mean, the last page clearly shows Harry, the only other possibility would be Gabriel, but Gabriel doesn't look like that, and Gabriel definitely isn't connected with Peter's past.

    To make it even more obvious, the next page where the people involved are talking about issue, they rather blatantly say it's Harry:



    Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex85 View Post
    Can I just say I am so glad it wasn't Gwen, or Peter pre-OMD because I personally thought both of those options would have been horrible and I would have hated both.
    Hey, Gwen survived one character assassination (As little as she had) back in Sins Past, what's one more?

    If Gwen, can they just leave her/keep her dead, and let Spider-Gwen breath?
    Yeah, wonder how many times people talk about 616 Gwen around 65 Gwen, I don't even pay much attention to her, noticed it happens a lot and I'm sick of it lol.

    If Peter, clone sage level bad where the Peter you've read for more than a decade isn't the true Peter.
    Lol good point, didn't think of that when OMD Peter was mentioned as a possibility.
    Last edited by Lukmendes; 10-14-2020 at 12:51 PM.

  6. #21
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    There was some speculation before about which of Norman's kids it is, but the final editor's page referring to "The Harry Osborn of it all" makes it clear that Kindred is Harry.

    The only thing that's not confirmed is which Harry this is. From my perspective, it's pretty clear this is the Harry Osborn of Spectacular Spider-Man #200, one way or another.

    Have to say the artwork by Gleason in this issue is quite great. It's got some great touches of horror quite unlike anything before. Some of the imagery here feels like it could have come from Avatar Press especially the big splash image of the Kindred Bug. There's a big shift in tone quite different from Spencer's earlier stuff.

    The storytelling with this back and forth squiggly flashback and flashforward is a little weird in my view and not totally successful.

    As for where this is heading, I don't know and I feel fine about that.

    Some points to consider:
    -- This is the third ASM#50 in history. First is of course ASM #50 (Vol.1) aka "Spider-Man No More", Second is ASM #50 (Vol.2) aka "Doomed Affairs". Now Last Remains #1. Is it an instant classic on the level of those two, I'd say no, but this is a pretty awesome issue nonetheless.
    -- Nick Spencer began his run with Amazing Spider-Man #1 (2018), Vol.5. published in July 2011. So between that and #50 on October 2020, you have 27 months.
    -- The original Green Goblin mystery started in Amazing Spider-Man #1 (1963), Vo.1 published in July 1964 and Norman was revealed in ASM#40 (September 1966). So that's 26 months.
    -- Roger Stern said that he wanted the Hobgoblin reveal to last for one issue longer than Ditko, but he stepped down too quickly and it gone out of hand. But Spencer revealed Kindred one month longer than the Green Goblin. Some will bring up issue count but hey it wasn't Spencer's decision to publish Spider-Man twice-a-month.
    -- With Kindred, Harry Osborn has transitioned successfully from a legacy villain to an original villain in his own right (how often does that happen?). Adaptations have made him Venom, so he's always been either a Goblin or a Symbiote, now he's a Demon-Zombie-Centipede-Lich thing. Spinning the mystery so long has established Harry as Kindred whereas if the reveal happened earlier, it would have been, "oh Harry Osborn is now a mummy when is he gonna goblin up again".

    Harry Osborn being Kindred makes this very much Spider-Hush where Tommy Elliot was Hush, an old friend of Bruce's turned bad.

    Anyway, Spencer, take a bow.

  7. #22
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The only thing that's not confirmed is which Harry this is. From my perspective, it's pretty clear this is the Harry Osborn of Spectacular Spider-Man #200, one way or another.
    It'd be stupid if it was anyone but that Harry, 'cause Mysterio says Kindred was dead and then became a demon, can only really be that one.

    The storytelling with this back and forth squiggly flashback and flashforward is a little weird in my view and not totally successful.
    I was confused in that moment where Spidey was in the submarine about to be attacked, then we're back to the present with Cindy attacking in the present, took a bit for it to click lol.

    As for where this is heading, I don't know and I feel fine about that.
    Right now I'm wondering how they'll kick Strange out of the plot before he solves it

    -- With Kindred, Harry Osborn has transitioned successfully from a legacy villain to an original villain in his own right (how often does that happen?). Adaptations have made him Venom, so he's always been either a Goblin or a Symbiote, now he's a Demon-Zombie-Centipede-Lich thing. Spinning the mystery so long has established Harry as Kindred whereas if the reveal happened earlier, it would have been, "oh Harry Osborn is now a mummy when is he gonna goblin up again".
    Does that kind of **** happen at all? Legacy villains either become forgotten or replace the previous one in popularity.

    Though time will tell how popular Kindred will be after this, specially since he uses the magic aspect of Spidey, which adaptations tend to not use (However, 90's cartoon and Shattered Dimensions did use magic), but hey, kudos to Harry for having something else.

  8. #23
    Incredible Member Spidey_62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    There was some speculation before about which of Norman's kids it is, but the final editor's page referring to "The Harry Osborn of it all" makes it clear that Kindred is Harry.

    The only thing that's not confirmed is which Harry this is. From my perspective, it's pretty clear this is the Harry Osborn of Spectacular Spider-Man #200, one way or another.

    Have to say the artwork by Gleason in this issue is quite great. It's got some great touches of horror quite unlike anything before. Some of the imagery here feels like it could have come from Avatar Press especially the big splash image of the Kindred Bug. There's a big shift in tone quite different from Spencer's earlier stuff.

    The storytelling with this back and forth squiggly flashback and flashforward is a little weird in my view and not totally successful.

    As for where this is heading, I don't know and I feel fine about that.

    Some points to consider:
    -- This is the third ASM#50 in history. First is of course ASM #50 (Vol.1) aka "Spider-Man No More", Second is ASM #50 (Vol.2) aka "Doomed Affairs". Now Last Remains #1. Is it an instant classic on the level of those two, I'd say no, but this is a pretty awesome issue nonetheless.
    -- Nick Spencer began his run with Amazing Spider-Man #1 (2018), Vol.5. published in July 2011. So between that and #50 on October 2020, you have 27 months.
    -- The original Green Goblin mystery started in Amazing Spider-Man #1 (1963), Vo.1 published in July 1964 and Norman was revealed in ASM#40 (September 1966). So that's 26 months.
    -- Roger Stern said that he wanted the Hobgoblin reveal to last for one issue longer than Ditko, but he stepped down too quickly and it gone out of hand. But Spencer revealed Kindred one month longer than the Green Goblin. Some will bring up issue count but hey it wasn't Spencer's decision to publish Spider-Man twice-a-month.
    -- With Kindred, Harry Osborn has transitioned successfully from a legacy villain to an original villain in his own right (how often does that happen?). Adaptations have made him Venom, so he's always been either a Goblin or a Symbiote, now he's a Demon-Zombie-Centipede-Lich thing. Spinning the mystery so long has established Harry as Kindred whereas if the reveal happened earlier, it would have been, "oh Harry Osborn is now a mummy when is he gonna goblin up again".

    Harry Osborn being Kindred makes this very much Spider-Hush where Tommy Elliot was Hush, an old friend of Bruce's turned bad.

    Anyway, Spencer, take a bow.
    Yeah, for those reasons I'm on board with seeing where the identity reveal leads to as it has a lot of potential. I still haven't seen why it was necessary to bring Harry back in OMD, as it just sort of invalidated a classic story because they wanted him around again. It's another thing that mucks up the overall picture of the world's believability when there's pretty much no consequence for having Harry back and doing the gymnastics to justify it as easy as possible in Mind on Fire. I've seen a lot of angry fans elsewhere complaining how obvious it was, but is it bad it just ended up making sense lmao? It's a bit of missing the forest by looking at the tree imo, the road doesn't just stop now that we simply officially know who it is.

    I'd like to highlight the first story arc again having Peter split into two beings with each representing far different extremes of himself, so I think it's pretty likely the main villain of the run also is somebody who is sort of split so to speak. Same thing sorta happened with Spencer putting Kraven back in the grave but still having another Kraven around for future stories.
    Last edited by Spidey_62; 10-14-2020 at 01:19 PM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Does that kind of **** happen at all? Legacy villains either become forgotten or replace the previous one in popularity.
    I know, I am trying to rack my brains trying to figure out how many there are. I am sure there are instances. Legacy characters (heroes and villains) becoming popular and established in new identities are quite rare in general. Nightwing is the big one but not many aside from that.

    Though time will tell how popular Kindred will be after this, specially since he uses the magic aspect of Spidey, which adaptations tend to not use (However, 90's cartoon and Shattered Dimensions did use magic), but hey, kudos to Harry for having something else.
    This story now establishes Harry as a major league villain, before he was just a putz who was Norman's failson. He is now finally ascended to Peter's Two-Face and Hush, his good friend turned bad, which they never entirely succeeded at before.

    This song which I've been listening to a lot this past month hit me on reading this issue. It illustrates Peter and Harry's toxic friendship.

  10. #25
    BANNED WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    GOOD LORD Five issues of Amazing in November?! Dang it, why did I have to get married in November??? /s

  11. #26
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    I'm curious how Stanley fits into this... I mean, when he returned, Harry had another son. Yet, we got a corpse shambling around here. So is the Harry we've known since OMD ended a clone, or something else?

  12. #27
    Mighty Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I know, I am trying to rack my brains trying to figure out how many there are. I am sure there are instances. Legacy characters (heroes and villains) becoming popular and established in new identities are quite rare in general. Nightwing is the big one but not many aside from that.



    This story now establishes Harry as a major league villain, before he was just a putz who was Norman's failson. He is now finally ascended to Peter's Two-Face and Hush, his good friend turned bad, which they never entirely succeeded at before.

    This song which I've been listening to a lot this past month hit me on reading this issue. It illustrates Peter and Harry's toxic friendship.
    I wonder if Nick Spencer will let Kindred live past his run (though that never has stopped a writer from bringing back a Spider-Villain before). If he is kept alive, I hope he fares better than Hush in the long game

    I will always have a soft spot for Harry as Green Goblin thank to DeMatteis and Buscema
    "The Batman is Gotham City. I will watch him. Study him. And when I know him and why he does not kill, I will know this city. And then Gotham will be MINE!"-BANE

    "We're monsters, buddy. Plain and simple. I don't dress it up with fancy names like mutant or post-human; men were born crueler than Apes and we were born crueler than men. It's just the natural order of things"-ULTIMATE SABRETOOTH

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Dang it, why did I have to get married in November??? /s
    That's real life spoilers, my dude.

    Congratulations, best wishes, hope you make it to Church in time, or since this is Spider-Man, City Hall/Shea Stadium. My advice avoid bricks thrown from schlubby guys from street level to roof.

    My advice don't bother with comics so much in that time. We'll all be good and solicitous.

  14. #29
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    The reveal feels kind of basic, there were plenty of other more interesting options that could've been used to absolve the franchise of its original sin.

  15. #30
    Amazing Member Junco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex85 View Post
    There is a picture of Harry as a reflection, you can tell by the haircut it's Harry, and in the editor notes advertising the Last Remains issue checklist they explcitly say Harry Osborn as the reveal.

    Can I just say I am so glad it wasn't Gwen, or Peter pre-OMD because I personally thought both of those options would have been horrible and I would have hated both.
    If Gwen - can they just leave her/keep her dead, and let Spider-Gwen breath?
    If Peter - clone saga level bad where the Peter you've read for more than a decade isn't the true Peter.
    That's what I get for not reading everything, haha

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